Advanced Poll Williams vs Goldsmith

[pi 0]

John Williams is great so is Goldsmith. Its so damn hard to compare them even though they have the same job and use the same basic tool set. For some reason I get the impression that Goldmsith was just an incredibly SMART composer - when he was inspired. For example to me Star Trek theme is just as good as Star Wars theme (even though the latter came first). Goldsmith could stand toe to toe at some times with Williams just Goldsmith was better at certain things - Williams was better at most things.

[futuremartymcfly 0]

small margin, but really Williams is just plain old lucky. He found the right people at the right time, and is thus very popular. I think Goldsmith could have written something just as good for star wars and Indiana Jones. However I must admit I only have Goldsmith's patton, and his fronteirs compilation album :oops:

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Goldsmith is better by a small margin.

[Ollie 1,059]

Williams is better by small margin. Why?

Because Williams is my favorite composer. Because of Jaws, Star Wars, Raider's, E.T., CE3K and Superman.

Even though I found Goldsmith's post Total Recall work to be average it's still 10 times better than what is being passed as film music these days.

[pi 0]

I think Williams is better because of Close Encounters, I think that score is just out of Goldsmith's league. However Goldsmith has time and time again proven himself to be the more creative and original of the two. Basic Instinct is just so good! JW couldn't have captured the idea there better. It almost needed vagueness

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think Williams is better because of Close Encounters, I think that score is just out of Goldsmith's league.

Star Trek The Motion Picture proves otherwise.

[John Crichton 4]

Williams is better by small margin. Why?

Because Williams is my favorite composer.

What my fellow Texan said.

I love Goldmith, but Williams' style just appeals to me more.

[pi 0]

I think Williams is better because of Close Encounters, I think that score is just out of Goldsmith's league.

Star Trek The Motion Picture proves otherwise.

This was temped with - or based upon - Star Wars, and it seems to be Jerry emulating Star Wars rather then coming up with his own ideas. Close encounters doesn't really sound like any other previous film scores. I would say the same is true for Planet of the Apes. For me Star Trek 1 sounds more refined then Star Wars but they are very close - you can tell he had some Star Wars ideas in his head. And lets not get into a King's Row conversation - I do not subscribe to that. Like i said they are just different - but so good, it comes down to opinion (and people feel strongly each way). Williams says it all - Goldsmith leaves you room to imagine some stuff. Its like would you rather see Jessica Simpson nude or in a bikini (which makes you want to see her nude even more). Gay guys you get it too I am sure.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This was temped with - or based upon - Star Wars, and it seems to be Jerry emulating Star Wars rather then coming up with his own ideas.

I'm sorry, but have you actually heard Star Trek: The Motion Picture?

Wait, don't answer that, you obviously haven't.

[Ollie 1,059]

This was temped with - or based upon - Star Wars, and it seems to be Jerry emulating Star Wars rather then coming up with his own ideas.

I disagree, Goldsmith made it sound like Star Trek. Much Like Williams did for Superman, Goldsmith's theme says "Star Trek".

Plus the music for V'ger sounds nothing like anything Williams wrote for SW.

Its like would you rather see Jessica Simpson nude or in a bikini (which makes you want to see her nude even more). Gay guys you get it too I am sure.

Her stupidity, poor singing and forced celebrity make me find her less attractive every day.

Besides it's always best to leave a little to the imagination. 8O

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Williams is better by small margin. Why?

Because Williams is my favorite composer.

Words of wisdom.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Total logic.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Equal. Apples and oranges. But one if the best of the apple batch and one is the best of the orange batch. One uses leitmotifs and one develops an idea from beginning to end. One experiments with new sound and one sticks to powerful and proven classical sounds.

Whether you like apples more than oranges is up to you, or vice versa, but they're the best of their kind.

Both produce AMAZING music...

Though if you really pushed me, I'd give Goldsmith the edge as a film composer...since he basically invented effective spotting, and his work always fit the picture.

[pi 0]

This was temped with - or based upon - Star Wars, and it seems to be Jerry emulating Star Wars rather then coming up with his own ideas.

I'm sorry, but have you actually heard Star Trek: The Motion Picture?

Wait, don't answer that, you obviously haven't.

Yeh i have seen/heard/own it, in fact I almost consider parts of Star Trek 5/Generations to be better score. John Burlingame told me ST:TMP was temped with Star Wars ANH, so there he knows more then even you.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

This was temped with - or based upon - Star Wars, and it seems to be Jerry emulating Star Wars rather then coming up with his own ideas.

I'm sorry, but have you actually heard Star Trek: The Motion Picture?

Wait, don't answer that, you obviously haven't.

Yeh i have seen/heard/own it, in fact I almost consider parts of Star Trek 5/Generations to be better score. John Burlingame told me ST:TMP was temped with Star Wars ANH, so there he knows more then even you.

8O

[Morlock 11]

I think as film composers, neither is better. But I personally like JW's music more than JG's by a small, but persistant margin.

[Marcus 390]

They are both phenomenal, of course! And far, far superior to most of their colleagues, living or dead, and in the world of film and concert music!

Still, Williams is a more accomplished composer, technically, and his other musical qualities render him an obvious candidate for "The Greatest Composer Of The Lats Hundred Years", which sounds awkwardly competitive and deeply silly. And he would perhaps tie with Dmitri Shostakovich. And maybe Maurice Ravel.

God, I'm being very juvenile (and I'm loving it).

Not that Jerry Goldsmith wasn't magnificent, -he was divine!

[Trent B 337]

Star Trek sounding like Star Wars? LOL 8O

I'm dying over here! That's got to be the most hilarious thing I've heard all year on this board.

[pi 0]

Star Trek sounding like Star Wars? LOL   8O  

I'm dying over here!  That's got to be the most hilarious thing I've heard all year on this board.

Well to the people who understand music we have:

Main Titles for example

-the same key

-the same tempo

-triplet feel

-very similar orchestration (Trumpet lead)

-same style (forward moving, rythmic)

-similar block chord brass phrasing

-energetic/moving strings/winds

-grand theme

-nothing held back marching style

ok thats enough for now

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

You seem to be referring to the Main Title only.

I suggest you take a proper listen to the rest of the score, particularly the already mentioned V'Ger music.

Blaster beam in Star Wars? Wind machine? I don't think so.

[Trent B 337]

I know the score like the back of my hand and I don't hear any similarities between that and Star Wars.

Goldsmith's The Motion Picture score or any of his Star Trek scores sound nothing like Star Wars. :roll:

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Star Trek sounding like Star Wars? LOL   8O  

I'm dying over here!  That's got to be the most hilarious thing I've heard all year on this board.

Well to the people who understand music we have:

Main Titles for example

-the same key

-the same tempo

-triplet feel

-very similar orchestration (Trumpet lead)

-same style (forward moving, rythmic)

-similar block chord brass phrasing

-energetic/moving strings/winds

-grand theme

-nothing held back marching style

ok thats enough for now

Congratulations! You understand 1 minute and 20 seconds (times 2) of music!

Nevermind the the other more than 100 minutes.

[GoodMusician 56]

John Williams never had a score rejected.

Case and point.

Although, I do enjoy me some Goldsmith, I think one major piece you're missing from this debacle is the unsaid musical feeling.

The feeling from Star Trek andthe feeling from Star Wars are completely different.

With Star Trek, you get this feeling of optomism and hope and just... exploration...

Star Wars is more... bombastic with triumphant horns and fits its need...

John Williams has a very operatic sound. Many of his themes and pieces you can almost imagine people singing them... with the Star Wars theme, I feel like it's a prelude, that I should be reading something lol...

Star Trek... isn't as operatic... its feels more innocent.

That's one thing I have to say about Jerry Goldsmith. He captures purity and innocence better than anyone. Listen to the music from "Legend," or the "Baku Village" theme and such, they all capture this absolute beauty and innocence...

John Williams seems to capture reality more than fantasy.

[pi 0]

I guess the point I am trying to make is:

Star Trek TMP is Goldsmith's attempt at a similar kind of score to William's Star Wars. The differences you guys are all describing could easilly be compared to ALL Goldsmith works vs ALL williams works. His quirkyness is what makes him him. If Williams scored Star Trek in stead it would have sounded like his Star Wars and visa versa.

Goldsmith does it his way, Williams does it his way. But the idea of these scores is something very similar.

[nightscape94 965]

I'm gonna say Williams by a moderate margain.

Tim

[pi 0]

It would be intersting to do this poll on JGfan.com if there was such a thing. These results might be biased - but i see a trend developing here - Williams is winning by a lot of votes.

[Quintus 5,399]

small margin, but really Williams is just plain old lucky.  He found the right people at the right time, and is thus very popular.  I think Goldsmith could have written something just as good for star wars and Indiana Jones.  However I must admit I only have Goldsmith's patton, and his fronteirs compilation album :oops:

Agree entirely. Goldsmith was just as adept as Williams at creating themes that stick, when he had the right material to work with. Sadly for Jerry, John got all the '70s - '80s blockbuster work simply because John met Spielberg.

I'd have loved to have heard what Jerry would have done with the likes of Indy, ET and Star Wars. Having said that, I suspect only someone as crafty as Williams would have thought up the idea of keeping the Jaws theme so damn simple 8O

Goldsmith was just as good as Williams when it came to the action stuff too.

But Williams is my favourite simply because his stuff just happened to catch my imagination a little more than Goldsmith.

[nightscape94 965]

It would be intersting to do this poll on JGfan.com if there was such a thing. These results might be biased - but i see a trend developing here - Williams is winning by a lot of votes.

This is, after all, the JOHN WILLIAMS Fan Network...

Tim

[Hitch 57]

I chose Goldsmith simply because I saw more of him in concert than Williams. John Williams hasn't graced the London podium at the Barbican since July 1998. Goldsmith was virtually there every year up to the time he got sick. Jerry...the consumate professional. You are missed deeply.

[nightscape94 965]

Sadly for Jerry, John got all the '70s - '80s blockbuster work simply because John met Spielberg.

You make it sound like they bumped into each other on the street, or it was just chance. Spielberg chose Williams. He selected him for his first movie because he liked the Reivers score and knew he wanted to work with him based on the quality of music, which is why he continues to work with him for every film. It wasn't an accident. Williams is a genius composer. The best!

Tim

[King Mark 3,631]

I think Williams is moderaely better

I also think this is a troll attracting thread.

I also don't like very much the cues in STTMP that don't have the main theme like the vger cloud music.

I also think Stefancos has a strange obsession for the film STTMP,which explains him liking the score so much

K.M.

[Greg1138 3]

I've gone for Williams by a moderate margin.....don't ask me to quantify it - I'm not able to - instinctive replies are usually the right ones anyway.....

.....but for the record I'm not as much of a fan of Goldsmith as many here are.....don't get me wrong - Goldsmith was a genius and I don't dispute it for one second, but then again neither do I dispute that Shakespeare was also a genius - it's just that I don't like most of his plays!

[Hitch 57]

As was Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and Bjork.

[Greg1138 3]

ummmm........Bjork?

[Hitch 57]

She wrote that fantastic piece REQUIEM FOR THE SWAN in 1864.

[gkgyver 1,646]

I can't say that I've heard much Goldsmith. Alien, Supergirl, Star Trek Motion Picture and some cues from compilations. Oh yeah, and Star Trek Nemesis.

I can't say I got into his music that much, but I didn't really like the avantgardistic elements in some of it. Surely I appreciate his freshness, but Williams' purely orchestral and thematical approach just appeals more to me.

I voted "John Williams by a margin" because it's the margin that separates tremendous respect from love.

[batmanand 0]

Williams, by a moderate margin.

Williams has defined film music, pretty much constantly, for 30 years. I can think of only a very few years (1995 comes to mind, as does 1997) when he has not been THE Hollywood composer. The fact is that, ask a randomer on the street to hum a theme from a film, I can guarentee the following six are the most likely to be heard:

1. James Bond (at least in the UK, where I live)

2. Star Wars

3. Jaws

4. ET

5. Jurassic Park

6. Indiana Jones

I make that 5/6 for Williams. Goldsmith gets a big, fat zero.

Now, don't get me wrong: Jerry was immensely talented. But, with the exception of ST:TMP, he never really defined a film with its score in the way that at least a dozen Williams scores do. And Star Trek is simply less good than ANH (and much worse than ESB).

Goldsmith's talent was in providing new and innovative sounds to all his films, and in his immense versitility. Williams' genius is to make a score that is so central to the film that no-one cannot be affected by it. Williams is also just awesome at making a) the big moments sounds amazing and B) writing themes that stay with you for a long time.

Overall, in terms of music talent, I would say Williams just edges it (his unique neo-Romantic sound, heard perfectly in Hook, for example, is a remarkable chapter in modern music). In terms of who is better, I would say Williams. As a film scorer, he provides music that is more memorable, more accessible and almost always of a remarkably high standard, for the casual listener and the film score fanboys alike.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

with the exception of ST:TMP, he never really defined a film with its score in the way that at least a dozen Williams scores do.

The Omen immediately comes to mind.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Williams, by a moderate margin.

Williams has defined film music, pretty much constantly, for 30 years. I can think of only a very few years (1995 comes to mind, as does 1997) when he has not been THE Hollywood composer. The fact is that, ask a randomer on the street to hum a theme from a film, I can guarentee the following six are the most likely to be heard:

1. James Bond (at least in the UK, where I live)

2. Star Wars

3. Jaws

4. ET

5. Jurassic Park

6. Indiana Jones

I make that 5/6 for Williams. Goldsmith gets a big, fat zero.

Now, don't get me wrong: Jerry was immensely talented. But, with the exception of ST:TMP, he never really defined a film with its score in the way that at least a dozen Williams scores do. And Star Trek is simply less good than ANH (and much worse than ESB).

Goldsmith's talent was in providing new and innovative sounds to all his films, and in his immense versitility. Williams' genius is to make a score that is so central to the film that no-one cannot be affected by it. Williams is also just awesome at making a) the big moments sounds amazing and B) writing themes that stay with you for a long time.

Overall, in terms of music talent, I would say Williams just edges it (his unique neo-Romantic sound, heard perfectly in Hook, for example, is a remarkable chapter in modern music). In terms of who is better, I would say Williams. As a film scorer, he provides music that is more memorable, more accessible and almost always of a remarkably high standard, for the casual listener and the film score fanboys alike.

I think we're mixing up popularity of films, with compositional genius.

But, with the exception of ST:TMP, he never really defined a film with its score in the way that at least a dozen Williams scores do

No...just....

Patton...The Wind and the Lion, The Omen, The Motion Picture, Under Fire, Gremlins, Rambo Trilogy, The Burbs, Rudy, Medicine Man, Total Recall, Basic Instinct, The Russia House, The Ghost and the Darkness.

Now if you wanna discuss popularity contest...well Williams got to get his hummable music exposed to more people than Goldsmith...

[pi 0]

Now if you wanna discuss popularity contest...well Williams got to get his hummable music exposed to more people than Goldsmith...

Right, because he is better.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Now if you wanna discuss popularity contest...well Williams got to get his hummable music exposed to more people than Goldsmith...

Right, because he is better.

Sooo...we can now come to a mutually acceptable conclusion.

Britney Spears > Justin Timberlake > John Williams > Jerry Goldsmith?

Poll over.

And if Coca Cola composed music, it would be the equivalent of a deity, considering 85% of the population of Earth is exposed to it.

18 tracks, 70 minutes of unmatched fizzing.

[GoodMusician 56]

Original Formula or diet?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Original Formula or diet?

I think the Original Formula has much better thematic development.

At the same time, I think the move from glass to plastic really hampered the sound quality of the recordings.

[gkgyver 1,646]

Williams' genius is to make a score that is so central to the film that no-one cannot be affected by it. Williams is also just awesome at making a) the big moments sounds amazing and B) writing themes that stay with you for a long time.  

I just think Williams has this incredible gift of completely absorbing the film into his scores, to the point where you don't even think about questioning the sound of choice.

[pat_burke 0]

What is with all this bollicks again? They are both equal.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I like them both a lot, but I chose Williams by a moderate margin mainly because I simply enjoy his music more. From the bombastic Star Wars to the adventurous Indiana Jones to the soaring Superman and ET to the depressing Schindler's List to the dramatic Born on the Fourth of July to the wonderfuly playfulness of 1941. Jerry is more inventive with his orchestrations I suppose but I've only heard (whether on CD or on film) the Rambo trilogy, ST: TMP, The Omen, Patton, Hoosiers, Air Force One. I've also heard but cant recall Chain Reaction and Total Recall.

William Hung>Jessica Simpson>Britney Spears>Justin Timberlake>Robbie Williams>Elvis>Coldplay>Michael Jackson>U2>Bee Gees>Jerry Goldsmith>John Williams

DISCLAIMER: Having William Hung in the food chain above does not imply that I even remotely find his songs entertaining

[Damo 0]

John Williams will win this no matter what how much margin he has won by.

[John Crichton 4]

When discussing how popular or recognizable Williams themes are versus Goldsmith, you always have to keep in mind that Williams has scored many more mainstream hits than Goldsmith. There are few Goldmith scored movies that are true blockbusters, while Williams' career is littered with them.

Of course, Williams' themes are also better, but it's a point to keep in mind.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I agree with Mr. Crichton.

[Incanus 5,722]

There cannot be any ultimate truth in this argument or in any argument involving individual tastes. But this poll creates discussion and that is always good.

I love the music of both composers and I respect both very deeply. Williams has brilliant scores and so does Goldsmith. I see no reason to compare them in any way.