Star Wars 1977 vs 1997&2004 Are they really better?

[Ollie 1,059]

First i want to say this isn't some fanboy whiny rant. these are my honest opinions of the trilogy.

With the original trilogy due this September in less than desirable conditions I would like to take the time to open a discussion as to what really bothers me about the Special Editions.

I think a majority of us want the same thing, clean up the print make it anamorphic and give us a good correct sound mix, that's all. Other films on DVD manage to have this done. Why can't Star Wars?

But when it comes to the Special Editions I have one question.

Do the added scenes actually make the films better?

Now before you reply please think about it and read my explanations.

A number of people I know had the same comment when the trilogy was released back in 1997. "I would have went even if Lucas hadn't added all that CGI to the films, just to see them on the big screen again is what got me to go."

These were comments from non-die hard fans, just your average movie goer who thought the films were good.

My answer: No they do not make the film better.

1. Star Wars

This is the only film that stands alone from the rest. After seeing this film I wanted more but I didn't need more. If they had never made anymore films I could have lived with just Star Wars because it delivers and and succeeds in wrapping up it's storyline in one film. I liken it to the WWII films about resistance groups that fight and win one huge battle. You know at the end they didn't win the entire war but you walk away satisfied.

- A few new shots of the canyon, dewbacks, sandcrawler, obi-wan's home, Mos Eisley and the Millenium Falcon. Honestly what do these do for the film? Nothing, they do absolutley nothing. They don't move the film along they don't enhance the plot, they stick out like a sore thumb visually.

- Jabba the Hutt, Lucas cut this for a reason, one of them being Solo's encounter with Greedo in the cantina. ILM did such a poor job they still had to go back and change it for the 2004 release. It slows the film down as well.

- Greedo fires first, this not only ruins Solo's character it looks absolutely stupid. I can't believe with all the technology at their hands this was the best ILM could do to that scene. The 2004 version makes it worse.

- The Death Star Battle. Basically this is an insult/ slap in the face to John Dykstra, Richard Edlund, Douglas Trumball and all of the effects techs that worked on this film. Their Oscar winning work ain't good enough for his film.

There was nothing wrong with X-wing / tie fighters in that sequence. Lucas modelled it after WWII dogfights and in they were able to capture how those planes moved and fought. These CGI effects stick out like a sore thumb.

- Mos Eisley. Lucas had captured Tatooine as a wasteland and gave it the desolate feeling as described. With the enhancements you get the feeling the planet is now a major hub for space travel. Gone is the feeling of isolation Luke must have felt.

2. The Empire Strikes Back

Fortunately Lucas didn't do as much tinkering with this one as he did with Star Wars.

- The Wampa. Was it really necessary to show him eating? We know what he's going to do with Luke, the bones in the cave gave it away. It doesn't make the film any better. The tension was already there with the roars and quick glimpses of him approaching Luke.

- Cloud City. Lando must have gotten a great deal on windows because now they are everywhere. Why? We saw Cloud City on the Falcon's approach. Do we need to seet it all thru the film? How about a big window so the citizens can watch Solo being tortured? Again they don't do anything to the film to make it better. I kinda liked the closed enviroment of the city because it added to the darkness of the film. Kershner made Cloud City seem bleak with his lighting and camera angles and now it's ruined.

- Vader's Shuttle trip. This really is one of the dumber additions. Do we really need to see Vader's trip to his shuttle. He originally says to bring his ship so duh we kinda know. this just slows the hyperspace sequence down by interupting the flow of the scene. A total waste of time.

3. Return Of The Jedi

This film had a bunch of problems to begin with; Ewoks, Lapki Nek, burp jokes, Harrison Ford's boredom with his character, Boba Fett and Lando's characters wasted, Vader's redemption and becoming a wuss and a second Death Star.

- Jabba's palace band. One of the dumbest scenes to grace a Star Wars film became downright embarrassing. Honestly can anyone find anything remotely positive about this scene? The cantina band from Star Wars was done right, this is just a joke and the new Jedi Rocks slows the film down and makes me cringe. Plus we kinda got the idea that Oola got eaten by something in the original version by her and the monster's screams. It just seems un-neccessary to show her falling into the pit and show the door opening and then cutting away and then basically repeat it with Luke 10 minutes later.

- Bantha Herd, doesn't really add anything to the film nor does it hurt it.

- Sarlacc pit - see above. So he's got a beak.

- Victory Celebration, the only reason I like this new scene it because it features Wedge more and he shares a moment with Luke. The rest you can junk. The new music is good but it doesn't belong. The old Ewok celebration worked fine. We know people are celebrating the downfall of the Empire but we don't need to see it, plus they stick out like a sore thumb as well.

Now I know these are the property of George Lucas and he can do what he wants but remember these films, when originally released, received acclaim, awards, praise and did pretty damn good at the box office. They also became part of our culture. In 1977 something special happened.

I just don't think the additions do these films any good.

[A24 4,334]

1. Star Wars  

   This is the only film that stands alone from the rest. After seeing this film I wanted more but I didn't need more. If they had never made anymore films I could have lived with just Star Wars because it delivers and and succeeds in wrapping up it's storyline in one film.

Bartender, give this man a drink on me!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I pretty much agree with Mark.

[orrakul 0]

I also agree with Mark. For purely sentimental reasons, I prefer the original versions of these films. In the end, it's the story that makes these films work.

The only rationale that I've accepted for Lucas's tinkering is that this is what Lucas saw in his mind's eye, and now technology has advanced sufficiently to put his dream on screen. I'm OK with this.

But, while I don't think the additional shots add much, I also don't think they weaken the films. The original Star Wars trilogy is still an amazing movie experience.

[Romão 2,274]

I respectfully disagree. it is impossible for me to view Star Wars as a stand alone film. When I watched it for the first time, I already knew there were two more sequels. In that manner, the story always feels incomplete to me. And I do think the ships move far too slowly. BUt I do understand the views of the elder members.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I do not consider myself an elder member.

[Romão 2,274]

What I mean to say I understand the reasons why some of you prefer the orginal versions. I simply prefer the SE's, and I have no doubt that being younger than some of you might have something to do with it.

[pi 0]

I like when they used the SE to enhance the Xwings and the battles to fit more to todays standards. If they had only done similar things like that it would have been great. But like Merkel I pretty much know the SE much better then the original.

[mahler3 478]

Absolutely agree with you Mark.

I could never fathom why out of all of the changes / enhancements Lucas made in the trilogy, the one that desparately needed fixed wasn't. I am referring to the Rancor scene of course - horrible super-impositions etc.

- Tim.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I like blue R2-D2, though. And the added Biggs scene in Star Wars.

Nevertheless, I still remain of the opinion that the single biggest problem with the SEs lies not so much with the SEs themselves, but the availability (or rather, lack thereof), of the films so many people grew up on, and that changed both filmmaking and worldwide pop culture in so many ways.

What's "Special" about it if it's the only thing available (see also The Exorcist: The Version You've Never Seen Before)?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

As i said in the past, perfect original OT versions should be released, along with completely CGI redone versions of them to match the prequels. Right now the mix of effects is not 100% statisfying. And that way everyone would be happy.

I just want to add something:

 

- The Death Star Battle. Basically this is an slap in the face to John Dykstra

Indeed it is, since his SFX company, the one named 'Sony pictures Imageworks' makes the worse CGI effects, for a supposedly big company. And these X-Wings are better than that.

His oscar win for Spiderman 2, now that's a slap in the face to ILM or Weta for that matter.

[Diego 21]

I have mixed feelings about the 97 special editions, some things are ok and I can understand them, for example, the dewbacks, since they were originally in the film but were cut because they didn't work properly and some changes are harmless. I do agree there are also some stupid changes, the redundant and badly done Jabba scene, Greedo shooting first, the shuttle scene in ESB (I hate one that mostly because what they did to the music, plus it really ruins the movies's pace) and the celebration in ROTJ which doesn't make any sense if you think about it.

However I have to say that since I was born in 1981 I had only watched ROTJ in a movie theater, and I was 2 years old (it was the first movie I ever saw) and so I was very exited about the SE when they came out and I guess that's why I kinda like them, lots of fun memories.

Oh, and the 2004 changes, they all suck I think.

[ins 42]

Another important point is the new added scene (2004) with the Empreror talking to Vader onboard the Star Destroyer. Beside I love the character Palpatine it takes the plot away where Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father. This is imo the biggest mistake for all people not having seen this film by now. Any thoughts?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The 2004 versions are supposed to be watched after the Prequels, we are spoiled already

[Romão 2,274]

Absolutely agree with you Mark.

I could never fathom why out of all of the changes / enhancements Lucas made in the trilogy, the one that desparately needed fixed wasn't. I am referring to the Rancor scene of course - horrible super-impositions etc.

- Tim.

That was fixed in the 2004 DVD's.

[Magnus 0]

The 2004 versions are supposed to be watched after the Prequels, we are spoiled already

I was thinking just that when I watched the ESB-DVD yesterday and came to the conclussion that it's kinda screwed up trying to watch Original Trilogy first and Prequel later.

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

Another important point is the new added scene (2004) with the Empreror talking to Vader onboard the Star Destroyer. Beside I love the character Palpatine it takes the plot away where Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father. This is imo the biggest mistake for all people not having seen this film by now. Any thoughts?

Yeah but presumably the viewer already knows this because he has seen Ep III, right?

*********

Also, the special editions were done not to enhance the individual films, but the all six of them together. I think most of the changes make the saga flow a little better.

[Marcus 390]

Great observations, Mark! I agree 100%!

[Henry B 50]

I like blue R2-D2, though. And the added Biggs scene in Star Wars.

It's a nice scene, but it doesn't really make sense with Biggs's Tatooine material cut. In fact, in the original version, the audience has no reason to care about Biggs; he's just a pilot. This hangar scene creates more empathy for Biggs, but it ultimately fails because the Tatooine scenes are still cut - and they should be. It's a basically gratuitous plot thread.

[Diego 21]

Something positive about the ESB SE that goes mostly unnoticed is that some transitions of the Imperial March which were not used in the original were included in the special edition, and they work better, so there are a few musical improvements.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think I'll go complain that John Williams isn't scoring OotP...

K.M.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

This hangar scene creates more empathy for Biggs' date=' but it ultimately fails because the Tatooine scenes are still cut - and they should be. It's a basically gratuitous plot thread.[/quote']

Luke does mention "Biggs is right," back at the homestead, though. Nevertheless, the omission Tatooine scenes was definitely a good decision.

But didn't they tinker with this new scene also? I remember something about a line about Luke's father that got removed. They superimposed some footage of someone walking through the foreground to make that cut go smoother (the scene is pretty much one shot, I believe).

I still think this lets the big dramatic moment that Biggs' crash is supposed to be have some more impact.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm actually not so sure R2-D2 should look blue in space.

In space it's dark, so colors get darker, thus blue should look like black.

[Kevin McCallister 0]

One other irritating change in Empire - Luke's scream as he falls after his fight with Vader.

First, it's not even his scream, it's the Emperor's from ROTJ.

Secondly, Luke made the conscious decision to fall. Why would he be screaming on the way down? The silence gave the scene an eerie vibe that was completely lost in the new version.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's been removed for the 2004 version, right?

[Guest macrea]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of some members, here is my long-winded response...

I guess being eight years old when Star Wars opened makes me an elder member. And as such I am proud to say that I loved Star Wars more before there were sequels than I did after. Empire was a pleasant surprise because it was so different and it felt like the story was maturing with the audience. Then came Jedi, which I thought was terrible in every way from day one. I was fourteen but it was a movie for my six year-old brother who was into the Muppets. Not only was it infantile but the storyline about the redemption of Darth Vader and the revelation of Leia as Luke's sister were copouts and came completely out of left field. But while folks who'd only seen the movies once or twice might not care, there's one other major thing that stands out... the second Death Star. If the plot of ROTJ was done as the first sequel instead of TESB, it would have been called Star Wars II and would have been branded a typical, unoriginal sequel just trying to cash in on the first one, no different from Jaws 2 or Rocky II. (This time it's a new, BIGGER, Death Star and Vader's the construction foreman!) It was only the trilogy-arc that TESB set up that created an overwhelming sense of anticipation about ROTJ. But in every way the conclusion was lame. In my experience, those who claim to like ROTJ are usually only casual fans who had no expectations, too young to recall a time when this wasn't a "saga," so fanatical about it that they are willing to look past its faults, or some combination of these. As for myself, I have never been able to accept it, and as a result TESB comes up ultimately empty. My admiration for it is linked with memories of three years of speculation and anticipation, but in the end all hopes were dashed and TESB is enjoyable for me only for its own filmmaking achievements and for pondering what COULD and SHOULD have come after.

But the issue here, of course, is not the original films but the changes made in 1997 & 2004. So let me work backwards...

Return of the Jedi... You can assert from my above comments that I don't think there is anything they could possibly do to make the movie better. Making it worse was very easy, however. All they had to do was put in the horrible "Jedi Rocks" drool-fest. Shooting new footage of the dancing girl in the pit and a herd of banthas only made the lousy Jabba sequence longer. The alleged climax of that sequence - the sarlacc pit - was already a ridiculously contrived action setpiece, and adding a fallus to the vagina dentata didn't distract anyone from the real crime of that sequence -- the death of Boba Fett, which is caused by a blind man by accident. As for the other major change in the film, the ending, I thought it was dreadful. Admittedly I thought it was awful originally (ending the saga at the Country Bear Jamboree as I said in another thread), but I'm sorry, I just don't get that montage. In 1997 we saw three celebrations but none made any sense to me... wasn't Tatooine so far away from Imperial control that it wouldn't matter? Didn't Lando tell the citizens of Cloud City to evacuate? And on Coruscant wouldn't they be pissed, or at the very least stunned rather than celebratory? As for the insertion of Hayden... sickening! Ignoring for the moment that I didn't like or accept the Vader redemption story in the first place, at least Sebastian Shaw looked like a redeemed man. Hayden looked like a bored, angry kid. And wouldn't Luke be saying "who the hell is that guy?"

The Empire Strikes Back... I have yet to hear anyone defend the Vader shuttle return sequence. I mean did anyone really not understand when Vader said "bring my shuttle" that this is how he got back to his ship? It ruined the pace (perhaps deliberately) and the music, and who did they think they were kidding throwing in some B-camera shots from ROTJ and calling it an added scene? The shuttle was also one of the only new things in ROTJ that I liked. But now it's not "new" because it shows up in the previous episode. The only other really new things in Jedi (originally) were the speeder bikes and Jabba, but now those are also in previous movies, so ROTJ comes across as being even less interesting than it was initially. But back to Empire... the wampa... unnecessary. The audience understood what was happening. The Cloud City windows? Looked nice but there was one thing I really didn't like... in the chase there was this sense of being trapped and when R2 finally gets the door open there is a sense of at last being free. The windows take away from that. In the 2004 edition they finally put in Ian McDiarmid as the Emperor. Not unexpected, but an unwelcome change to me. I always hated the cackling crone portrayal of the Emperor in ROTJ. A dumb character who was only there to be evil so that poor Anakin could be revealed as the victim who didn't mean to be a homicidal maniac who spent the previous movie killing his senior officers before cutting off his son's hand. The appearance and voice of the original Emperor was full of mystery, despite the scene itself not ever making any sense. (Why does the Emperor call Vader to tell him to find Luke, which Vader's already been doing since the movie started?)

Star Wars... Some of the more subtle changes were nice. My favorite was the camera shake in the cockpit as the Falcon is tractor beamed into the Death Star. The fixed matte paintings on the Yavin moon were nice too. But the major stuff was horrible, Jabba, Greedo, the insertion of half the Biggs scene, with a matted-in foreground person passing by to cut out the other pilot's dialogue about Luke's father. Very sloppy. Dewbacks and sunsets and dinosaurs in Mos Eisley... all unnecessary. Praxis wave added to Alderaan and Death Star explosions... lame! The CG ships do not match the model shots and this is especially noticeable in the Death Star battle . The original shots were fantastic, but more importantly they were consistent. The whole thing was a completed, consistent scene that worked. In fact, Star Wars was a completed, consistent movie that worked. And that's the point...

Yes, some of the subtle changes were nice, but if they were too subtle to be noticed by most viewers, why change them? The fact is that the changes can only yield two results... either you don't notice them, or you get distracted by them. So what's the point of changing anything if that's the case? What it comes down to is this... movies are a product of their time. And regardless of Lucas' feeling that he didn't get everything that he wanted, can the success be disputed? Doesn't the phenomenal impact of the movie tell us that people loved it for exactly what it was? I can understand tinkering with something that bombed or that clearly could have been better... Dune, Legend, Star Trek TMP, but Star Wars??? This is a movie that was nominated for 10 Oscars including best picture, best screenplay, and best director. It became the biggest hit of all time, played for 16 months straight and was then reissued four more times. It's high up on the AFI 100 best list and it's been named a national treasure. It changed the industry for all time and was an unparalleled cultural phenomenon. The movie that did all this was the one released in 1977, and that's the version that is important to preserve, not the version of it that the director tinkered with for transparent financial reasons alone. At the time of its release the brilliance of Star Wars was clear... its achievement was in how well it told a story and created a universe but how little it showed you. The screwed-with versions were a prelude to the prequels, and those were all turned around... they show you EVERYTHING but tell you very little story and don't feel realistic in any way, and what little story is there makes no sense when you start examining it. In the original Star Wars you got swept along by the characters and the archetypes and with how real everything felt.. And that's all you needed, helped immensely by the score and the sound work, of course. The movie isn't better because the landspeeder is clearly above the ground rather than concealed by terrain in the foreground. If you've been raised on wall-to-wall CG movies and you find the original Star Wars boring, it's your loss.

I also agree that the original Star Wars is a great standalone experience. I remember when it was just that and I wouldn't have missed it for anything. I didn't need sequels either and now that we have them I'm starting to wish they didn't exist. It was so great when the plot of Star Wars was this... Before being captured by a fearsome Dark Lord, a rebel Princess places the Death Star plans into a droid that happens to be passing by, and said droid ends up with a farmboy on a desert planet who then joins up with a veteran knight and a pair of smugglers to save the day. Now the plot is... Nineteen years after Anakin Skywalker turns to the Dark Side of the Force, his incognito daughter (who isn't really a Princess) puts the plans of the Death Star into a droid who belonged to her mother, and the droid, along with his counterpart who was built by her father, happens to end up at the farm where her long-lost twin brother lives. They meet up with the old Jedi who was there when the twins were born and together they hire a pair of smugglers, a wookiee who fought with the Jedi's mentor and another who owes money to a gangster whose slave used to be Darth Vader's mother. Little does the smuggler know that the gangster is going to hire a bounty hunter who just happens to be an unaltered clone of the man whose DNA created the Imperial army, etc. etc. blah blah, time to take an Advil.

With the S/E's Lucas bastardized on his own creations not to "fulfill his original vision," but to get 20th Century Fox to pay for software development and to conform the films into something approximating consistency with the prequels. But it should have been the other way around... the prequels AND the sequels should have conformed to the original... the one that changed the world and the one that should be preserved. John Williams' fantastic achievements along the way aside, of course, you can keep the others, just restore, preserve, and make available the original.

Long story short (I know, it's too late)... the original is better.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I'm actually not so sure R2-D2 should look blue in space.

In space it's dark, so colors get darker, thus blue should look like black.

The only reason R2 doesn't look blue, is because his blue areas would have become transparent against the blue backing.

That's been removed for the 2004 version, right?

Yes.

I also agree that the original Star Wars is a great standalone experience. I remember when it was just that and I wouldn't have missed it for anything. I didn't need sequels either and now that we have them I'm starting to wish they didn't exist. It was so great when the plot of Star Wars was this... Before being captured by a fearsome Dark Lord, a rebel Princess places the Death Star plans into a droid that happens to be passing by, and said droid ends up with a farmboy on a desert planet who then joins up with a veteran knight and a pair of smugglers to save the day. Now the plot is... Nineteen years after Anakin Skywalker turns to the Dark Side of the Force, his incognito daughter (who isn't really a Princess) puts the plans of the Death Star into a droid who belonged to her mother, and the droid, along with his counterpart who was built by her father, happens to end up at the farm where her long-lost twin brother lives. They meet up with the old Jedi who was there when the twins were born and together they hire a pair of smugglers, a wookiee who fought with the Jedi's mentor and another who owes money to a gangster whose slave used to be Darth Vader's mother. Little does the smuggler know that the gangster is going to hire a bounty hunter who just happens to be an unaltered clone of the man whose DNA created the Imperial army, etc. etc. blah blah, time to take an Advil.

Yes, yes, yes.

Personally, I still think that the "definitive" and original versions should be able to co-exist, if only Lucasfilm would just let them.

- Marc

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

1. Star Wars  

A few new shots of the canyon, dewbacks, sandcrawler, obi-wan's home, Mos Eisley and the Millenium Falcon. Honestly what do these do for the film? Nothing, they do absolutley nothing. They don't move the film along they don't enhance the plot, they stick out like a sore thumb visually.

THey dont move the film along but it adds some flavor and detail to the universe. Some blend in better with the 77 footage then others but generally its a thumbs up from me.

Jabba the Hutt, Lucas cut this for a reason, one of them being Solo's encounter with Greedo in the cantina. ILM did such a poor job they still had to go back and change it for the 2004 release. It slows the film down as well.  

Greedo fires first, this not only ruins Solo's character it looks absolutely stupid. I can't believe with all the technology at their hands this was the best ILM could do to that scene. The 2004 version makes it worse.  

Both scenes get an 'ewww' from me. 2004 Greedo is better than 1997 Greedo, but it doesnt matter, it still sucks.

The Death Star Battle. Basically this is an insult/ slap in the face to John Dykstra, Richard Edlund, Douglas Trumball and all of the effects techs that worked on this film. Their Oscar winning work ain't good enough for his film.  

There was nothing wrong with X-wing / tie fighters in that sequence. Lucas modelled it after WWII dogfights and in they were able to capture how those planes moved and fought. These CGI effects stick out like a sore thumb.

Mos Eisley. Lucas had captured Tatooine as a wasteland and gave it the desolate feeling as described. With the enhancements you get the feeling the planet is now a major hub for space travel. Gone is the feeling of isolation Luke must have felt.  

I think the new CG Xwings are wicked cool and they blend in pretty well too. The original effects WERE groundbreaking but are noticebly a bit rough even by ESB standards, plus they 'moved' slow. That said, I personally would like both versions to be available for purchase, if not on the same disc (there's this trick on DVD where they can have something like alternate angles and such no?)

2. The Empire Strikes Back

   Fortunately Lucas didn't do as much tinkering with this one as he did with Star Wars.

 - The Wampa. Was it really necessary to show him eating? We know what he's going to do with Luke, the bones in the cave gave it away. It doesn't make the film any better. The tension was already there with the roars and quick glimpses of him approaching Luke.  

 - Cloud City. Lando must have gotten a great deal on windows because now they are everywhere. Why? We saw Cloud City on the Falcon's approach. Do we need to seet it all thru the film? How about a big window so the citizens can watch Solo being tortured? Again they don't do anything to the film to make it better. I kinda liked the closed enviroment of the city because it added to the darkness of the film. Kershner made Cloud City seem bleak with his lighting and camera angles and now it's ruined.

- Vader's Shuttle trip. This really is one of the dumber additions. Do we really need to see Vader's trip to his shuttle. He originally says to bring his ship so duh we kinda know. this just slows the hyperspace sequence down by interupting the flow of the scene. A total waste of time.

I like the old Wampa sequence better too.

No qualms at all about the Cloud City approach or its windows. No windows did make it feel a tad low budget and somewhat claustrophobic. I mean, anyone who builds a city in the clouds would want to have nice windows no? And I don't think not having any windows made it any bleaker.

Vaders shuttle trip didnt hurt the film that much imo. Forgivable

Luke's scream in 97 was a rubbish decision

Cleaned up Hoth effects get the thumbs up.

3. Return Of The Jedi

- Jabba's palace band. One of the dumbest scenes to grace a Star Wars film became downright embarrassing. Honestly can anyone find anything remotely positive about this scene? The cantina band from Star Wars was done right, this is just a joke and the new Jedi Rocks slows the film down and makes me cringe. Plus we kinda got the idea that Oola got eaten by something in the original version by her and the monster's screams. It just seems un-neccessary to show her falling into the pit and show the door opening and then cutting away and then basically repeat it with Luke 10 minutes later.

- Bantha Herd, doesn't really add anything to the film nor does it hurt it.

- Sarlacc pit - see above. So he's got a beak.

- Victory Celebration, the only reason I like this new scene it because it features Wedge more and he shares a moment with Luke. The rest you can junk. The new music is good but it doesn't belong. The old Ewok celebration worked fine. We know people are celebrating the downfall of the Empire but we don't need to see it, plus they stick out like a sore thumb as well.

Jedi Rocks - arguably equal in terms of stupidity with Greedo shooting first, if not more.

Bantha Herd - just some added detail. Nice.

Sarlacc pit - nothing wrong. Works pretty well

Victory Celebration - mixed feelings. Don't hate it, don't really like it either. I do think though that the new music sends off the saga in a more dignified manner than having a choir belting out 'Celebrate the love!!'. Yub Nub is a fun piece though anyway. Hayden as Anakin was rubbish too.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

1- his incognito daughter (who isn't really a Princess)

2- another who owes money to a gangster whose slave used to be Darth Vader's mother.  

 

3- But it should have been the other way around... the prequels AND the sequels should have conformed to the original... the one that changed the world and the one that should be preserved.  John Williams' fantastic achievements along the way aside, of course, you can keep the others, just restore, preserve, and make available the original.

1- Leia has always been an adopted daugther. At least, since the times of the official radio drama.

2- Jabba the hutt NEVER owned Shmi Skywalker. It was Gardula.

3- Yes, make three movies in the 21st century with SFX from 1983, or even 1977 since they are prequels and they have to match SW. Now try to make money with those. or try to earn 10 nominations again. Nobody does, why should lucas?.

Oh, and Leia went to Tattoine becasue his father told her to look for Obi-Wan, who should have just finished training Luke. He couldnt know Owen lars handnt premited it.

[Jeshopk 8]

Another important point is the new added scene (2004) with the Empreror talking to Vader onboard the Star Destroyer. Beside I love the character Palpatine it takes the plot away where Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father. This is imo the biggest mistake for all people not having seen this film by now. Any thoughts?

But the new dialogue in this scene doesn't reveal that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker. They just say "the son of skywalker". So...how does this spoil the surprise?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The Star Wars cycle is such a cultural icon that pretty much everyone knows Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father, even if they haven't seen a single minute of any of these films.

[Guest macrea]

1- his incognito daughter (who isn't really a Princess)

2- another who owes money to a gangster whose slave used to be Darth Vader's mother.  

 

3- But it should have been the other way around... the prequels AND the sequels should have conformed to the original... the one that changed the world and the one that should be preserved.  John Williams' fantastic achievements along the way aside, of course, you can keep the others, just restore, preserve, and make available the original.

1- Leia has always been an adopted daugther. At least, since the times of the official radio drama.

2- Jabba the hutt NEVER owned Shmi Skywalker. It was Gardula.

3- Yes, make three movies in the 21st century with SFX from 1983, or even 1977 since they are prequels and they have to match SW. Now try to make money with those. or try to earn 10 nominations again. Nobody does, why should lucas?.

Oh, and Leia went to Tattoine becasue his father told her to look for Obi-Wan, who should have just finished training Luke. He couldnt know Owen lars handnt premited it.

1 - From the radio drama narration for episode 2: "One of the leaders of the rebellion is the Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan, but neither her high birth nor her status as an Imperial Senator will protect her should her rebel affiliations be discovered." There's nothing in the radio drama to indicate she's adopted. Quite the contrary.

2 - Splitting hairs. The planet is "controlled by the Hutts," thereby tying the Skywalker backstory to the Han Solo backstory, which is dumb. And let's not forget that little Anakin knew little Greedo and Yoda knows Chewbacca.

3 - Amount of effects has nothing to do with it, but it's the sweep of the plot, the charm of the characters, and the storytelling shorthand that was lost. How many ships do we need to see land in the prequels, when we should just be getting on with the scene? People enter and leave rooms. It's that kind of thing that made the original feel so mythical... you got a sense that the scenes kept going after you left them and that we were just seeing what was necessary to tell the story. Starting with Jedi it began to feel staged and unnatural, more like a pageant, trying to impress you with what it can show you rather than tell a good story well.

Oh - Yeah, that's why Leia goes to Tatooine, but instead of the droids getting to Ben they just happen to get to her twin brother's farm? And now we know that Bail Organa was present when Yoda told Ben to take Luke to the Lars farm. Yet he sends Leia there hoping for the best. Then, of course, Vader thinks nothing of tracking Leia to Tatooine and in all those years never thought to google the name Skywalker and see what came up. Sorry, but it was all better before any of these characters had backstories that were so conveniently interconnected.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

1 - From the radio drama narration for episode 2:  "One of the leaders of the rebellion is the Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan, but neither her high birth nor her status as an Imperial Senator will protect her should her rebel affiliations be discovered."  There's nothing in the radio drama to indicate she's adopted.  Quite the contrary.

2 - Splitting hairs.  The planet is "controlled by the Hutts," thereby tying the Skywalker backstory to the Han Solo backstory, which is dumb.  And let's not forget that little Anakin knew little Greedo and Yoda knows Chewbacca.

3 - Oh - Yeah, that's why Leia goes to Tatooine, but instead of the droids getting to Ben they just happen to get to her twin brother's farm?  And now we know that Bail Organa was present when Yoda told Ben to take Luke to the Lars farm.  Yet he sends Leia there hoping for the best.  Then, of course, Vader thinks nothing of tracking Leia to Tatooine and in all those years never thought to google the name Skywalker and see what came up.  Sorry, but it was all better before any of these characters had backstories that were so conveniently interconnected.

1 - I could swear there was a conversation between Leia and his father, and she said something about foster father...

2 - The greedo scene does not appear in TPM, so its no 100% canon...

3 - There is no word in the prequels that can make us expect owen Lars will prevent Luke's training.

We know Bail knows Ben took luke to Tatooine and was going to train him. That's why Bail sends leia.

BTW couldnt all these interconnections the ways of the Force, as quigon says when he talks about finding anakin in a backwater world by 'chance'?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

BTW couldnt all these interconnections the ways of the Force, as quigon says when he talks about finding anakin in a backwater world by 'chance'?

That's the kind of connection that screams "plot device!"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Enough of this.

Manuel, this thread is about changes made to the OT, it is not, I repeat NOT about the Prequels.

Keep up this line on conversation and I will be forced to take action.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The Star Wars cycle is such a cultural icon that pretty much everyone knows Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father, even if they haven't seen a single minute of any of these films.  

That may be true, but it doesn't help your (remaining) credibility to willingly spoil that "surprise". That's why I think introducing Luke and Leia as brother and sister and Anakin's father was a pretty bad move in Episode III. It would have been ok if the story of the originals was different, but as it stands, Episode III ruins the major plot twists of "Episodes IV- VI".

Now about the Special Editions: I wouldn't care for them so much if we actually had the updated versions as well as the original theatrical releases in good quality on DVD. But we don't, so I blame Lucasfilm for neglecting their roots, and the roots of today's cinema.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Enough of this.

Manuel, this thread is about changes made to the OT, it is not, I repeat NOT about the Prequels.

Keep up this line on conversation and I will be forced to take action.

I was not the one who started analysing the connections between OT and you-know-which movies.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Enough of your lip, boy!

You are hereby banned for 2 weeks.

[lordskylark 1]

What about things that Obi-Wan talked about in ANH?

"He didn't agree with your father's ideals and thought he should have stayed home and not gotten involved." ?

Nothing of that sort ever happened in the prequels.

It seems a LOT of the original idea that Lucas had was scrapped when the prequels were made...

Then with Leia talking about knowing her mother... I read some article that was in a Bantha tracks (I think). It talked about a summary of some stuff way way before the prequels were even planned to be made (it actually made references to Mace Windu and stuff too). And it talked about Luke and Leia's mom being Arcadia Skywalker and lived on Alderaan.

Then, there are a few deleted dialogue things from Jedi (in the shooting script) with Ben talking to Luke involving Lars being ben's brother and even about Vader falling into the lava pit while fighting ben.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

He didn't talk about Vader falling into the lava pit (I think that might have originated from one of the radio dramas - not sure), but he did explain this:

- Anakin left Luke's mother (presumably to fight in the Clone Wars with Ben), not knowing she was pregnant

- Owen Lars was Ben's brother

- Leia's mother took her to live on Alderaan as the daughter of Senator Organa

- Leia was adopted by the Organas and became a princess by virtue of lineage, because of the high-born and politically powerful Organa household

- Leia followed in her foster father's footsteps and became a senator, which gave her diplomatic immunity and made her a vital link in the Rebel Alliance (some of this was touched upon in the opening scenes of Star Wars, I believe)

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

He didn't talk about Vader falling into the lava pit (I think that might have originated from one of the radio dramas - not sure)

Written in the Return of the Jedi novelisation.