The Hobbit Film Trilogy Thread

[Jay 37,374]

Well, the Frodo of the films is fairly different from the Frodo of the books anyway... but yea, Wood did not create an iconic screen presence like McKellen, Holm, Freeman, and Serkis did.

[KK 3,307]

In the end, they all nailed the heart of the thing anyways. Great cast!

[Jay 37,374]

No question!

[KK 3,307]

In LOTR, even the minor characters ace their roles and help bring the story to life. See, I don't feel the dwarves managed to accomplish the same feat in the Hobbit. Everything feels....artificial, for the lack of a better word.

[Jay 37,374]

Balin is good.

[Incanus 5,716]

Balin is good.

Yeah Ken Stott is very convincing and sympathetic in his role. But there is as KK said some kind of artificial feel to some of the dwarven characters. 15 main characters in itself is also a major problem. But then again 9 worked in LotR, especially when they got their own separate storylines. But as in the novel only a few of the dwarves stand out in the end.

[KK 3,307]

He was. Never bought into Fili and Kili though, nor Bifur and Bofur and good Lord Nori is really annoying (one of the many needless distractions in the film).

Still waiting on where they take Thorin's character before I pass judgement.

[Jay 37,374]

I was reading The Hobbit again the other day, and realized Thorin is supposed to be older than Balin, and in fact the oldest of the entire company. So why did the film version make Balin look 50 years older than any of the other dwarves?

[Incanus 5,716]

I think Thorin was made younger for the same reason that Frodo was in LotR. To create a more appealing central character with perhaps more vigour and energy than a considerably older dwarf in his twilight years might have had. Hence also his beard being pathetically short (my pet peeve on the dwarven characters). Instead of an old and venerable dwarf, who is still fighting fit and determined to take back his kingdom, Thorin is made into a youngish, energetic and fierce warrior and leader. He also seems to be rather petulant and annoyingly single minded, bitter and grudge bearing (yes we know you hate elves but do you really hate them all so much).

I was amazed how young they made Thorin in the films. He hardly seems to age between the prologue and the time we see him at Bag End.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Thorin's character has been altered to fit the role of the tragic hero (different from how the book and Incanus describe him), which I personally think will work. You need a young Thorin to bring that out though.

[Incanus 5,716]

PJ's logic falters there a bit regarding Thorin's age and his ability to fight but I guess it was his artistic decision and reasoning. Oh and Thorin is to my mind a bit too tragic at this point, too angsty and too stubborn and too full of hatred and prejudice. Let's see where will his character grow from the first film, where he chose poorly time and time again and caused trouble because of his super amplified tragic role.

[KK 3,307]

Again, its not so much about the "warrior" as it is about the "tragic hero".

[Incanus 5,716]

Again, its not so much about the "warrior" as it is about the "tragic hero".

I somehow can't understand how young is any better for that than an old character?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

I would argue that an older character, who has for a 100 years born guilt, duty and grudge and is now in his twilight years, would be an excellent obsessed and tragic hero, who has even more motivation to achieve his goal before his better days are done and he simply won't have strength left for such an undertaking. But of course the choice for PJ and the film makers might have not been so straightforward nor without tangled considerations. Plus young is sexy and a selling point whereas old isn't.

[KK 3,307]

Its not that. I think PJ is modelling Thorin after a typical Shakespearan tragic hero like Hamlet. ..you know, the young vengeful lad whose own naivety will be his undoing.

An older and wiser Thorin would probably less receptive to the lust and greed that leads to Thorins eventual madness.

Or at least thats how I hope they'll play it.

[Incanus 5,716]

Well in this regard they chose rather poorly I think. It shows so little faith in Tolkien's writing and themes, sadly. The younger haughty and stubborn Thorin is most of the time insufferable in the film I find, even though Armitage's performance is quite good. Instead of a father figure of a leader he acts like a petulant child who is used to getting his way.

[KK 3,307]

I agree. Ultimately, PJ doesn't seemed to have crafted these films for a more mature audience. I don't think he believes that his fans can handle aged hero.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Smeltington 1,441]

I'm sure PJ made Thorin into a flawed character in the first film so he could have more of a character arc by the end of the trilogy. Although he already sort of had one just within the first film itself, when he learned to appreciate Bilbo at the end. But I guess he can still learn the same valuable lesson about the elves.

Like many of the elements in the new films, there's a clear parallel to the old films - Thorin is more or less an equivalent to Aragorn, who needs to "come into his own," become a true hero, and reclaim his rightful kingdom. I think PJ felt he had to introduce some more character flaws to make that into more of a personal journey for him.

It's interesting because reading the Hobbit book, Bard felt a lot like a prototype for the Aragorn character, so now the Hobbit films will have two Aragorn-like characters.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sure PJ made Thorin into a flawed character in the first film so he could have more of a character arc by the end of the trilogy. Although he already sort of had one just within the first film itself, when he learned to appreciate Bilbo at the end.

Yes, but that trust and appreciation will be broken when Bilbo betrays him and takes the Arkenstone, so that arc is still going.

[Incanus 5,716]

I'm sure PJ made Thorin into a flawed character in the first film so he could have more of a character arc by the end of the trilogy. Although he already sort of had one just within the first film itself, when he learned to appreciate Bilbo at the end.

Yes, but that trust and appreciation will be broken when Bilbo betrays him and takes the Arkenstone, so that arc is still going.

Thorin's arc in the novel is quite different. He does grow to appreciate Bilbo but in the end he doesn't do much growing in many other regards. His captivity with the Elves only adds his antagonism against them if anything.

And he repents his "sins" only on his deathbed and not much sooner. If anything he is more like Boromir rather than Aragorn, deeply flawed even though he restores his honor after his greedy madness by in essence sacrifying himself in battle.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

At this point Thorin seems like a mix of Aragorn and Theoden.

[Barnald 365]

I see far more of Boromir in Thorin than Aragorn

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's like deep man...Commited you know!

But like with...issues, and hang-ups.

Da biatches must melt before him!

[Smeltington 1,441]

I'm sure PJ made Thorin into a flawed character in the first film so he could have more of a character arc by the end of the trilogy. Although he already sort of had one just within the first film itself, when he learned to appreciate Bilbo at the end.

Yes, but that trust and appreciation will be broken when Bilbo betrays him and takes the Arkenstone, so that arc is still going.

Good point!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh God....it just hit me!

We already know Thorin will die at the Battle of Five Armies. But his hatred of the Elves must be resolved. I am guessing him and Legolas will fight together against Azog the Defiler. They will defeat him, but not before Azor mortally wounds Thorin.

On his death bed, Thorin will say

"I never thought I would die fighting side by side with an Elf"

[Smeltington 1,441]

Blegh! It'll probably go something like that. Although the second film seems to have so many elves in it, his dislike for them will have to be addressed and maybe he'll warm up to them at the end of this one instead of the third one.

I REALLY don't want Azog to be the one to kill (mortally wound) Thorin, but it seems likely, doesn't it...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I REALLY don't want Azog to be the one to kill (mortally wound) Thorin, but it seems likely, doesn't it...

I still have a hard time understanding why they didn't make Bolg the leader of the hunting party instead of Azog. That would have made more sense. They're overcomplicating things just for the sake of it

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why does it overcomplicate it? What's in a name?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

A person!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Neither Bolg or Azog are described in any detail in Tolkien's works. PJ and Co probably just preferred the name Azog so used that. It doesn't actually matter.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

Yes, it does, because Bolg will appear in the films.

Yup.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hey! Spoilers!

[Incanus 5,716]

Well sorry about that. Obviously you have been reading this thread very sporadically to have missed that piece of info flying about in here as it has been mentioned many many times before.

[Jay 37,374]

Stefan is joking. But anyways, Bolg was in AUJ and was seen in the production diaries too

Here's a picture of him:

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11433&page=179#entry862198

[Incanus 5,716]

Stefan is joking. But anyways, Bolg was in AUJ and was seen in the production diaries too

Stefan being facetious? No! Can't be! It simply can't be!

[Smeltington 1,441]

If Bolg is played by a real dude then I already like him more than Azog.

[Jay 37,374]

Just click the link I posted to the picture, it's a real dude in a costume

[Smeltington 1,441]

Oh, yeah I did look and I appreciated that fact, that's what I meant to say.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,374]

Indeed

[Incanus 5,716]

I have already mentioned a few times that Bolg would have been much better candidate for the orc to hunt the dwarven company. His motivation would still have been vengeance but it would have made more sense and would not have required so large deviations away from Tolkien's original stories. Plus the finale of the story would have benefitted from a double motive for Bolg to assault Erebor.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Stefan being facetious? No! Can't be! It simply can't be!

One day you and I will meet!

After the awesomeness of the Pale Orc, you can't have a man in a suit as his son!

[Incanus 5,716]

So they will have to redo Bolg and make the CGI creature even bigger! Because big size indicates more awesomeness!

[Jay 37,374]

I have already mentioned a few times that Bolg would have been much better candidate for the orc to hunt the dwarven company. His motivation would still have been vengeance but it would have made more sense and would not have required so large deviations away from Tolkien's original stories. Plus the finale of the story would have benefitted from a double motive for Bolg to assault Erebor.

Complete agreed, especially about the last part!

After the awesomeness of the Pale Orc, you can't have a man in a suit as his son!

It wouldn't surprise me if they completely replace Bolg as well like they did with Azog, actually! I mean, Bolg looks nothing like new-Azog, though he does look like the original Azog (who ended up being Yazneg)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Maybe he will be a bastard.

Bolg...Snow!