The Hobbit Film Trilogy Thread

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

I kinda think that was the point.

PJ's roots as a schlock horror director showing again.

And that's his undoing as a director. Each Tolkein film has got progressively sillier, schlockier and more tasteless than the last.

DoS is definitely not sillier than AUJ. Vice versa.

What hurts the Hobbit most is definitely the lack of locations. For example, in FotR, even small scenes like the Crebain scene were shot on location. I'm 100% sure that today, PJ would do it in front of green screen. In fact, back in 2001, a scene like "An Ancient Enemy" from AUJ would have never been shot on a stage.

Additionally, the subtle use of colour grading in FotR and TTT made the sets more real, while the crayon-palette in the Hobbit makes them look like Burton animation movies.

Well to be fair it was never the intention to shoot the Azanulbizar flashback on a stage, but they realized it would be logistically difficult getting a large number of crew and extras up to that location. You might respond that they were lazy and settled for ease and convenience in the end, but it is a rather large production and this scene isn't particularly long (especially not in the original script). Kind of like how they COULD have got Shore to score the AUJ: EE but felt it wasn't worth all the hassle for about five minutes of music. As painful as that is to us it's just how big films roll nowadays.

I should add that filming a large battle scene on the craggy rocks we see outside of the East Gate in FOTR might have been a touch dangerous. I guess that could have been another reason behind it.

[KK 3,307]

Of course this probably has to do with how The Hobbit is 9 hours filmed in a studio in front of a green screen, while LotR actually made the most of what film-making had to offer.

I always thought that was kind of a cool thing about the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Between the three films and more than anything else I can think of, they really do use just about every trick in the book while still feeling of a piece. Long takes, quick cuts, jump cutting, fades, dissolves, miniatures, models, CGI, motion capture, green/blue screening, set design, location work, aerials, Steadicam, handheld, POV, slow motion, whip pans, extreme close ups, extreme wide shots, everything in between. It's like Film 101 watching those movies. What's missing? Stop motion? Non-digital matte paintings? I guess there are no particularly lengthy sequence shots either.

Exactly. PJ played with just about every trick in the book to make Middle-Earth as real and impressive as possible, which is what makes LotR the film-making feat it is. In comparison, The Hobbit just seems so limited in scope.

[gkgyver 1,646]

I kinda think that was the point.

PJ's roots as a schlock horror director showing again.

And that's his undoing as a director. Each Tolkein film has got progressively sillier, schlockier and more tasteless than the last.

DoS is definitely not sillier than AUJ. Vice versa.

What hurts the Hobbit most is definitely the lack of locations. For example, in FotR, even small scenes like the Crebain scene were shot on location. I'm 100% sure that today, PJ would do it in front of green screen. In fact, back in 2001, a scene like "An Ancient Enemy" from AUJ would have never been shot on a stage.

Additionally, the subtle use of colour grading in FotR and TTT made the sets more real, while the crayon-palette in the Hobbit makes them look like Burton animation movies.

Well to be fair it was never the intention to shoot the Azanulbizar flashback on a stage, but they realized it would be logistically difficult getting a large number of crew and extras up to that location. You might respond that they were lazy and settled for ease and convenience in the end, but it is a rather large production and this scene isn't particularly long (especially not in the original script). Kind of like how they COULD have got Shore to score the AUJ: EE but felt it wasn't worth all the hassle for about five minutes of music. As painful as that is to us it's just how big films roll nowadays.

I should add that filming a large battle scene on the craggy rocks we see outside of the East Gate in FOTR might have been a touch dangerous. I guess that could have been another reason behind it.

I don't mean the battle itself, but the dialogue leading up to it, and afterwards.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[A. A. Ron 1,745]

No, I mean his massively self indulgent self belief. The ego he discovered around about the time of King Kong (although there were signs of its growth when he jettisoned Christopher Lee from TTT theatrical).

I actually think that was when he still had some sense of economy. Sure, it takes a big man to cut Christopher fucking Lee out of your movie, but it's the kind of momentum-killing scene that would have stuck around in these Hobbit movies pretty easily. I think Jackson was still being honest with himself there.

It seems like Christopher Lee is the one with a big ego, if he thinks no one should ever dare to cut a scene of him out of a movie.

Lee didn't just lose a scene. He was cut from an entire movie. And he wasn't just bothered because he wouldn't get to see his own face on the silver screen for the hundredth time (seriously, look at this man's filmography!). He's a huge fan of the books (reads 'em every year!) and he knew that not showing what happened to Saruman was a big mistake.

[Barnald 365]

I kinda think that was the point.

PJ's roots as a schlock horror director showing again.

And that's his undoing as a director. Each Tolkein film has got progressively sillier, schlockier and more tasteless than the last.

DoS is definitely not sillier than AUJ. Vice versa.

What hurts the Hobbit most is definitely the lack of locations. For example, in FotR, even small scenes like the Crebain scene were shot on location. I'm 100% sure that today, PJ would do it in front of green screen. In fact, back in 2001, a scene like "An Ancient Enemy" from AUJ would have never been shot on a stage.

Additionally, the subtle use of colour grading in FotR and TTT made the sets more real, while the crayon-palette in the Hobbit makes them look like Burton animation movies.

Well to be fair it was never the intention to shoot the Azanulbizar flashback on a stage, but they realized it would be logistically difficult getting a large number of crew and extras up to that location. You might respond that they were lazy and settled for ease and convenience in the end, but it is a rather large production and this scene isn't particularly long (especially not in the original script). Kind of like how they COULD have got Shore to score the AUJ: EE but felt it wasn't worth all the hassle for about five minutes of music. As painful as that is to us it's just how big films roll nowadays.

I should add that filming a large battle scene on the craggy rocks we see outside of the East Gate in FOTR might have been a touch dangerous. I guess that could have been another reason behind it.

I don't mean the battle itself, but the dialogue leading up to it, and afterwards.

Oh right. Perhaps because it was a late addition? Pretty certain this would have been filmed - or at least revised - in the summer of 2012. I guess things had got pretty hectic by that point with the whole three film shift and last-minute filming needing to be done.

I think with regards to techniques and filming locations the very short (for PJ) and troubled pre-production period of these films had a real impact. I'm sure we've discussed all this before though. If PJ was decided early doors, along with the three film plan, I imagine we'd have seen more location filming and less green screen. Of course, I base that on absolutely nothing.

But it is what it is. I'm more concerned about the story itself rather than the look of the whole thing.

[mrbellamy 6,331]

No, I mean his massively self indulgent self belief. The ego he discovered around about the time of King Kong (although there were signs of its growth when he jettisoned Christopher Lee from TTT theatrical).

I actually think that was when he still had some sense of economy. Sure, it takes a big man to cut Christopher fucking Lee out of your movie, but it's the kind of momentum-killing scene that would have stuck around in these Hobbit movies pretty easily. I think Jackson was still being honest with himself there.

It seems like Christopher Lee is the one with a big ego, if he thinks no one should ever dare to cut a scene of him out of a movie.

Lee didn't just lose a scene. He was cut from an entire movie. And he wasn't just bothered because he wouldn't get to see his own face on the silver screen for the hundredth time (seriously, look at this man's filmography!). He's a huge fan of the books (reads 'em every year!) and he knew that not showing what happened to Saruman was a big mistake.

Yeah, but the one scene was the entire movie for him. Let's be real, it was never on the level of what, say, Terrence Malick did to Adrien Brody. I can definitely understand why people lamented the scene's exclusion, but I think Jackson's reasoning was solid and again, it was only a year before it was back in the movie and widely available for those who wished to see it. I don't think we need to feel too sorry for him.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Nah, I think Jackson's Middle-Earth is the far better version of what Spielberg's would be. We need something different! Nolan/Malick 2020!

If I could down vote this post I would.

Bastard!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Luke Skywalker 1,799]

My problem with the teaser? Those Dwarves on rams/goats. I'm really not a fan. Boars are one thing, but these are another. I want the Iron Hills Dwarves marching up as bad-ass heavy infantry, and going into battle as such. This is how Dwarves should fight, not mounted on slow creatures that really wouldn't have a chance against Wargs (at least based on real rams and goats). I just hope they're not charging into battle here but arriving on the scene, and will dismount before fighting. I suppose I can live with some charging so long as 90% of the fighting involves them on foot.

True, i think I liked the idea of riding boar much more appealing than what has been shown.

Anyway, wild goats and rams can run (flee from peril - wolves) fast, and they can defend themselves and their herds with their horns. They can also clim mountains in places where carnivores could not. About his suitability for war, just think that zebras or other wild horses will first flee and then fight when chased by lions or other carnivores. Still war horses were breed to enter into battle, fight and do not panic. These goats and rams could be trained like that too.

It makes sense to have these climbing mountain animals...since dwarves live inside mountains... But making a dwarmen cavalry, i think what was wrong with using ponnies? It makes more sense and would not have opened 'wounds'.

They are going to charge into battle, as some of the dwarves carried lances or spears...typical riding weapons...

On a side note the mounted animals look like Ibex, like incanus mentioned, and the chart pullers look like mouflon rams.

[gkgyver 1,646]

I kinda think that was the point.

PJ's roots as a schlock horror director showing again.

And that's his undoing as a director. Each Tolkein film has got progressively sillier, schlockier and more tasteless than the last.

DoS is definitely not sillier than AUJ. Vice versa.

What hurts the Hobbit most is definitely the lack of locations. For example, in FotR, even small scenes like the Crebain scene were shot on location. I'm 100% sure that today, PJ would do it in front of green screen. In fact, back in 2001, a scene like "An Ancient Enemy" from AUJ would have never been shot on a stage.

Additionally, the subtle use of colour grading in FotR and TTT made the sets more real, while the crayon-palette in the Hobbit makes them look like Burton animation movies.

I don't think you can call the colour grading in FOTR or TTT 'subtle'. It's pretty heavily graded just in a way that looks less artificial. If you look at stills throughout the films it's clear how much they played with the colours.

In FotR, PJ said he wanted the colours slightly pushed to a more fairytale feel. And it succeeded. But if you compare the Shire in FotR to AUJ, or even RotK, there is no comparison.

[Incanus 5,723]

My problem with the teaser? Those Dwarves on rams/goats. I'm really not a fan. Boars are one thing, but these are another. I want the Iron Hills Dwarves marching up as bad-ass heavy infantry, and going into battle as such. This is how Dwarves should fight, not mounted on slow creatures that really wouldn't have a chance against Wargs (at least based on real rams and goats). I just hope they're not charging into battle here but arriving on the scene, and will dismount before fighting. I suppose I can live with some charging so long as 90% of the fighting involves them on foot.

True, i think I liked the idea of riding boar much more appealing than what has been shown.

Anyway, wild goats and rams can run (flee from peril - wolves) fast, and they can defend themselves and their herds with their horns. They can also clim mountains in places where carnivores could not. About his suitability for war, just think that zebras or other wild horses will first flee and then fight when chased by lions or other carnivores. Still war horses were breed to enter into battle, fight and do not panic. These goats and rams could be trained like that too.

It makes sense to have these climbing mountain animals...since dwarves live inside mountains... But making a dwarmen cavalry, i think what was wrong with using ponnies? It makes more sense and would not have opened 'wounds'.

They are going to charge into battle, as some of the dwarves carried lances or spears...typical riding weapons...

On a side note the mounted animals look like Ibex, like incanus mentioned, and the chart pullers look like mouflon rams.

No frigging riding dwarves would have solved the whole issue. Not only would that speed march from Iron Hills made Dain and his troops look tough and bad-ass but it also would show their will and determination to reach their kin and help their rightful king. But no PJ had to excess again.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is there anything in Tolkien's writings to suggest they didnt ride boars?

And we saw a dwarf running in TTT, that didnt go very well. They are wasted on cross country.

[Barnald 365]

I blame these pesky Wargs. Presumably PJ felt they needed something to go up against, and didn't fancy huge Elks.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,723]

Is there anything in Tolkien's writings to suggest they didnt ride boars?

And we saw a dwarf running in TTT, that didnt go very well. They are wasted on cross country.

Is there anything there to suggest that they rode wild boars in peace or in war in the entire history of Tolkien's Middle Earth writing? The answer is unequivocal NO! So why elaborate on such a cheap high fantasy notion in the context of Middle Earth? Excess of dear PJs part of course. These strange new-fangled Alpine ibex monstrosities are just another "great idea" out of PJs trouble solving mind. Hooray!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,723]

Is there anything in Tolkien's writings to suggest they didnt ride boars?

And we saw a dwarf running in TTT, that didnt go very well. They are wasted on cross country.

That's a good point, makes the whole goat thing actually make some sense.

Wow! You are so easily satisfied. It makes it all make sense. Wow!

But the only thing that would crown this mish-mash of jumbled epic fantasy ideas would be if the Orcs came in flying huge vampire bats! Because you know, otherwise they don't have an airforce. And it makes sense because Orcs are so aerodynamically unsuited for flying.

But I'll take a deep breath and start anticipating this gargantuan cotton candy ball of a movie without any more griping. No use whining over spilled milk anymore.

[Barnald 365]

Oh there will be large bats alright, though I hope nothing is riding them. I have my suspicions Legolas will at some point, but I truly hope they're wrong.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If Yrch can ride wargs, and Dutchmen can ride Frisian cows, then why can't dwarrow ride boars?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,723]

Maybe they added the goats to make the boars seem less ridiculous.

I think PJ waved his magic CGI wand and changed boars to mountain goats to lessen the critique.

I am hopeful rainbow ponies and marshmallow hippos will join the fray with the pink elephants. Because those were not mentioned in Tolkien's writings but that doesn't mean that dwarves could not ride those.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Now you are being ridiculous!

Btw, why do the greatest PJ/Hobbit bashers all have The Hobbit avatars?

[Luke Skywalker 1,799]

The solution is Ponnies. Which tolkien used in the Hobbit already.

BTW, i dont think mountain animals would be adapted for running fast for too long like horses are...

[Incanus 5,723]

Now you are being ridiculous!

Btw, why do the greatest PJ/Hobbit bashers all have The Hobbit avatars?

It is the only source for new Ian McKellen Gandalf images but I'll return to my favourite John Howe avatar just for you!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

Well honestly, I think it'd be more impressive/logistical to see the dwarves riding to the battle. But boars/rams were not the right way to go. As Luke suggested, they should have gone with ponies. But PJ needed to make the battle extravanganza even crazier, so that's wher eI assume the animals come in.

[Incanus 5,723]

The Iron Hill dwarves are not Rohirrim. They don't need to make a big cavalry entrance.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

Fair enough, but I can see why one might not want to see a bunch of short dwarves walking to battle. But I don't see the harm in them riding ponies as they did in the first hobbit film.

[Incanus 5,723]

Fair enough, but I can see why one might not want to see a bunch of short dwarves walking to battle. But I don't see the harm in them riding ponies as they did in the first hobbit film.

Rank upon rank of fully armored dwarves bristling with weapons marching to the field of battle would not be impressive? OK. Obviously height is everything. Would stilts do? Tank-like armored dwarf warriors on stilts?

[KK 3,307]

This is PJ's world, where dwarves are either mandated to look like teenage hearthrobs, or slobs doing fart jokes!

And my point wasn't about height. I just like seeing all my armies riding

[Incanus 5,723]

This is PJ's world, where dwarves are either mandated to look like teenage hearthrobs, or slobs doing fart jokes!

And my point wasn't about height. I just like seeing all my armies riding

Even when they have no recorded history of having cavalry nor is there a pony in sight in the original novel? Alright, alright! Let them hitch a ride on ox carts.

[KK 3,307]

Did they not ride ponies in the novel (during the journey)? I have little recollection.

And hey, I don't approve of the boars either! But I wouldn't mind ponies!

[Glóin the Dark 1,229]

Is there anything there to suggest that they rode wild boars in peace or in war in the entire history of Tolkien's Middle Earth writing?

Yes: philological evidence proves that boars were used as the principal mode of transport by the early Dwarvish colonists of the Lonely Mountain. A Dwarf departing the mountain on a journey would naturally summon his steed with the cry "Here, boar!" Through frequent use over the decades, a combination of fricative elision, vowel reduction, lexiconcatenation and rhotic hypercorrection resulted in the transformation of this phrase into "Erebor!" So ubiquitous had this sound become in and around the mountain that passers-by took to using it as a nickname for the mountain itself, and eventually it became accepted as official nomenclature. In time, Sindarin-speaking Elves (mistakenly taking the name as a translation of "Lonely Mountain") adopted the two elements ereb and or[od] into their own tongue, in which these eventually became the standard words for lonely and mountain, respectively. When the error was delicately pointed out by a well-meaning Dwarf, the Elves (in a desperate attempt to save face) pretended that these had been their words for ages. What resulted was one of the most monumental cover-ups in the entire history of Middle-earth, as Elves everywhere scoured their old books and maps for words that needed to be altered to fit the story, as well as concocting half-baked explanations for the ensuing etymological puzzles. But, in the end, their vandalism of linguistic history was so comprehensive that hardly anyone knows about it today. They also put out the story that Dwarves had never ridden boars.

[KK 3,307]

Well done Gloin! Now how about you justify the remainder of the trilogy's follies!

[Glóin the Dark 1,229]

Easy peasy! All of the supposed problems have explanations every bit as natural and credible as this one.

[gkgyver 1,646]

Sounds legit.

[Luke Skywalker 1,799]

I'm not sure ponies would work in a battle. At least not the ones the dwarves rode in AUJ.

Mongolian horses are small and almost count as ponnies.

I think they delivered a rather cool scene in Mulan.

Did they not ride ponies in the novel (during the journey)? I have little recollection.

And hey, I don't approve of the boars either! But I wouldn't mind ponies!

Wow so even ponies would be a no-no...

It is strange now that Gimli is against riding in TTT, and it seems dwarves are excellent at it...

[gkgyver 1,646]

No, they only excel at riding goats and boars, silly, not horses or ponies. Duh!

[Incanus 5,723]

Did they not ride ponies in the novel (during the journey)? I have little recollection.

And hey, I don't approve of the boars either! But I wouldn't mind ponies!

The company rode ponies through the opening half of the story until they lost them in the goblin tunnels. The Iron Hill dwarves marched to the Lonely Mountain on foot. No ponies were involved in the transportation. Which makes them seem even more badass as they can handle such gruelling march in such a short time. Who needs ponies when you have stubby little legs under you!

Is there anything there to suggest that they rode wild boars in peace or in war in the entire history of Tolkien's Middle Earth writing?

Yes: philological evidence proves that boars were used as the principal mode of transport by the early Dwarvish colonists of the Lonely Mountain. A Dwarf departing the mountain on a journey would naturally summon his steed with the cry "Here, boar!" Through frequent use over the decades, a combination of fricative elision, vowel reduction, lexiconcatenation and rhotic hypercorrection resulted in the transformation of this phrase into "Erebor!" So ubiquitous had this sound become in and around the mountain that passers-by took to using it as a nickname for the mountain itself, and eventually it became accepted as official nomenclature. In time, Sindarin-speaking Elves (mistakenly taking the name as a translation of "Lonely Mountain") adopted the two elements ereb and or[od] into their own tongue, in which these eventually became the standard words for lonely and mountain, respectively. When the error was delicately pointed out by a well-meaning Dwarf, the Elves (in a desperate attempt to save face) pretended that these had been their words for ages. What resulted was one of the most monumental cover-ups in the entire history of Middle-earth, as Elves everywhere scoured their old books and maps for words that needed to be altered to fit the story, as well as concocting half-baked explanations for the ensuing etymological puzzles. But, in the end, their vandalism of linguistic history was so comprehensive that hardly anyone knows about it today. They also put out the story that Dwarves had never ridden boars.

I prefer my Elf-ocentric etymological world view thank you very much!

[Luke Skywalker 1,799]

So they rode ponies in tolkine works after all.

Ponies are 'dwarf horses' you know.

They have sturdy legs and lots of hair.

It makes perfect sense they used them.

On the other hand... The battle is literally non-described in the novel, so any mention of ponies (and sadly goats and rams) makes it all feasible

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Does the Balrog have wings?

[Glóin the Dark 1,229]

One wing.

[Incanus 5,723]

Two wings as often as it can spare them.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I kinda think that was the point.

PJ's roots as a schlock horror director showing again.

And that's his undoing as a director. Each Tolkein film has got progressively sillier, schlockier and more tasteless than the last.

DoS is definitely not sillier than AUJ. Vice versa.

No, but it is more tasteless i.e. Jackson's bloodlust in depicting decapitated death twitching orcs.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,723]

The amount of CGI fodder in either Hobbit film deprived the action any sense of danger. Bloodless Orc decapitations left and right. PJ is his classic excess mode.