The Hobbit Film Trilogy Thread

[Faleel 5,349]

You could just have the film end once Bilbo escapes from the misty mountains

[gkgyver 1,645]

@ BloodBoal

I think what's wrong here is the pure concept of the cliffhanger.

You can end a TV episode of, say, Star Trek, with a situation like that, when the Enterprise is a few seconds away from self-destruction. You can do that because the audience has to wait only one week for the resolution, and the tension is still there, the viewer can get back into the situation pretty quickly.

But if you end a movie like the Hobbit with such a cliffhanger, with the dwarves being captured by the spiders - which is just as immediate a threat - the audience had to wait one full year for the resolution, and it is impossible to keep the tension up for that long because the tension relies on the acuteness of the situation.

And I think you demand a bit much of the audience if you think they will be right back in the situation right from the start of the second film.

You should keep the acute tension pretty low at the end of the first one, and simply rely on the tension the storyline itself (regain the gold, slay the dragon) brings with it. The same thing they did with Fellowship.

This way, people can get into the second one much easier.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

TV series (think Lost) typically have the most gripping cliffhangers at the end of each season. Granted, it's only a few months and not a full year until the continuation in that case, but still.

Lost (and Alias and Fringe, for that matter) tended to combine the cliffhanger with a game changing plot twist. Obviously, that's not available for The Hobbit, but you could still set up a cliffhanger where the first film ends with a setup for a new situation which is then held back for the sequel.

[indy4 155]

@ BloodBoal

I think what's wrong here is the pure concept of the cliffhanger.

You can end a TV episode of, say, Star Trek, with a situation like that, when the Enterprise is a few seconds away from self-destruction. You can do that because the audience has to wait only one week for the resolution, and the tension is still there, the viewer can get back into the situation pretty quickly.

But if you end a movie like the Hobbit with such a cliffhanger, with the dwarves being captured by the spiders - which is just as immediate a threat - the audience had to wait one full year for the resolution, and it is impossible to keep the tension up for that long because the tension relies on the acuteness of the situation.

And I think you demand a bit much of the audience if you think they will be right back in the situation right from the start of the second film.

You should keep the acute tension pretty low at the end of the first one, and simply rely on the tension the storyline itself (regain the gold, slay the dragon) brings with it. The same thing they did with Fellowship.

This way, people can get into the second one much easier.

+1

[gkgyver 1,645]

Thank you my good sir.

You have good taste.

[Faleel 5,349]

I think, BB's second ending Idea is better, end before mirkwood... but then the movie might be 2 short.

[Henry B 50]

The film could end with something not even of the book. White Council stuff, maybe Gollum searching for the Ring... anything.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

I think people said the same thing about the split in Deathly Hallows, that it would occur too soon or too late, can't remember.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jilal 569]

Oh god, i still have to read the book!

Let's see if my library has it.

Is it good?

Edit: Hmm, they have it in English and in Dutch.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Go for English. Tolkien was not a fan of the dutch translation of LOTR. Dunno about The Hobbit, but what i read of it was not very good.

[Brónach 1,302]

Heh, I remember it was the first book I read entirely in English. Good times.

[Wojo 2,453]

Mine was probably either The Cat in the Hat or some Dick and Jane book. My mom might remember.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Dwarfish song, will it be on the OST? And will people complain when it is?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What, you are gonna wait till the OST is released before you make an informed opinion?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What's next, you see the movie before having an opinion?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Brónach 1,302]

The Dwarfish song, will it be on the OST? And will people complain when it is?

Why would someone complain about it? Did people complain in LOTR?

Why wouldn't they put a freakin' Tolkien song on the OST?

[KK 3,307]

There were tons of complaints with LOTR. People weren't pleased with the commercial releases (which is understandable), then people complained about there being too many commercial gimmicks (again, understandable), and then people complained that the Complete Recordings were too long (heresy I say!).

To me, the Complete Recordings are the closest things to heaven I've got!

- KK

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Of course the Completely Recordings are too long, I would never think about to listen this music outside of the film.

But with the music in the film(especially the first one, FoTR) it is excellent.

Then back to the topics; What are your(the hard core fans) expectations of this film(after the trailer), will it top the LotR trilogy

or will it be just a nice addition to the story.

[Faleel 5,349]

Of course the Completely Recordings are too long, I would never think about to listen this music outside of the film.

But with the music in the film(especially the first one, FoTR) it is excellent.

So you prefer the hackjobs in the film to the awesome stuff in the CR's?

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Sure. Because it's great film music. Not very interesting outside of the film.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Rubbish!

[Quintus 5,399]

I fall somewhere between K.K. and hornist.

I'm a massive fan of Shore's LOTR, but some of that EE stuff is just ironing.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The second disc of ROTK drags somewhat, especially with all the Dunharrow and stairs of Cirith Ungol stuff, but it picks up at the end with Shelob's lair.

And I still don't fully understand why the first disc of FOTR omits the chorus as well as retains the edits.

These are the only things that may cause me some trouble with the CRs, but those are marginal at best.

I can easily sit through 3 discs of Two Towers, but have trouble keeping the attention up with the 2 disc ESB.

How anyone can label the whole sequence, the SIege Of Gondor all the way through the Pelennor fields as uninteresting outside of the film I don't understand.

EDIT: By the way, anyone interested in a transcription of the trailer song?

[Faleel 5,349]

Anyone who says "The Wolves of Isengard" is uninteresting outside the film is crazy.

[gkgyver 1,645]

It could be more interesting, had they not edited out the choir.

Again.

[Faleel 5,349]

The choir was in the OST. and was not like that in the film, and is more emotional (for me atleast) without the choir.

[KK 3,307]

Alright, it may be the lack of sleep, but I'm having trouble following this. How is the choir omitted from The Wolves of Isengard and the first disc of FOTR....its all there!!!

Sure. Because it's great film music. Not very interesting outside of the film.

If LOTR is not very interesting outside of film as music...then I don't know what is!!!

[Faleel 5,349]

Alright, it may be the lack of sleep, but I'm having trouble following this. How is the choir omitted from The Wolves of Isengard and the first disc of FOTR....its all there!!!

there are a few seconds of choir in "Treason of Isengard" and a chunk of choir in "Wolves of Isengard" that are there in the OST, but dialed out in the CR.

[KK 3,307]

Woah, I can't believe I've forgotten this! I apologize, its been the longest time since I've listened to the commercial releases, whenever I feel like LOTR, I just play the CRs. But I can see why one would get frustrated at the omission of the choral material there. That sucks...I guess you can't have it all, can you?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I can understand that people like the versions without choir better.

The point is that the CRs are advertised, like the title indicates, as presenting the score as it was recorded. If there were versions of "The Black Rider", "Weathertop", "The Wolves Of Isengard" and "Treason Of Isengard" recorded specifically without choir, then no objection.

But those cues were conceived with choir and were released on OST with choir, and the echo of the choir is still audible on the CRs, so the choir should be there.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Well looks like I went on holidays just as things were getting interesting.

I loved the trailer (although I could grumble about certain dwarf designs) but on the whole it looked like a vibrant and fun adventure film.

It is also lovely how they insert the music, Dwarf song Over the Misty Mountains Cold, into the trailer and movie which is an enchanting part of the story, Tolkien already applying cultural references into the world that was to become Middle-Earth. It is great to see McKellen back as Gandalf and Freeman somehow quite effortlessly turns into younger Bilbo.

Shore's music is very much at the heart of the whole trailer and I have to admit I liked it very much. He tends to "trailerize" his sound when writing for them. Just listen to the RotK trailer music to hear how he changes his sound to the "trailer feel" which mean it is more robust, more EPIC and more mainstream than what he will do in the film. In other words it sounds like preview material that is supposed to add to the excitement so that even the teenage ADHD cases can relate to the thrumming sound called music that is blasting in the background of the 2 minutes of film.

The 5th production diary was fun but also again brought home how massive these films are, just on the logistic side. Keeping the army of people fed, housed and comfortable is enormous work, especially considering many areas of NZ do not sport hotels and lodgins for 400 surprise guests.

And again it has to be said: New Zealand is an amazing country. It seems that where ever you turn the camera there is an impressive mist covered mountain range, a dark spooky forest, a great impressive hillock or verdant bucolic pastures. Amazing.

Oh and the sets look beatiful as usual. One could have a very long holiday in Hobbiton.

P.S. I think we just saw a quick glimpse of Ain't It Cool News' Quint in the Hobbiton market selling fish. Fredegar Chubb, the unsung hero of the Hobbit films.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mckellen looks like he never left the role. The dramatic intonations, the pauses, the voice, the looks. it's all there.

[Incanus 5,715]

Mckellen looks like he never left the role. The dramatic intonations, the pauses, the voice, the looks. it's all there.

Yes I noted that too much to my delight.

Also I really like the new design of Gandalf's staff. It has a more of a fairy story design to it reflecting perhaps the tone of the films. But he sure keeps changing the regalia of his office often compared to other Wizards. He should have sticked with this stick and none of the later trouble would have happened, I am sure.

P.S. Mr. Starfish hair-do Dwarf (Dori was it?) is if possible getting even more annoying than before. I just hate the design. Ain't It Cool News' Quint's 5th report from the set has a horrid picture of him astride a pony in all his weird-do glory.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It would have been a disaster if he somehow failed to recapture his performance.

[John Takis 206]

Also I really like the new design of Gandalf's staff. It has a more of a fairy story design to it reflecting perhaps the tone of the films. But he sure keeps changing the regalia of his office often compared to other Wizards. He should have sticked with this stick and none of the later trouble would have happened, I am sure.

Actually, it has been suggested that it's meant to be the SAME staff, only the top is curled up more tightly in this earlier film -- like a bud which is still in the process of opening. That would imply the staff is actually made of LIVING wood in some sense ... which I think is a rather nice, Tolkien-esque conceit!

[Incanus 5,715]

Also I really like the new design of Gandalf's staff. It has a more of a fairy story design to it reflecting perhaps the tone of the films. But he sure keeps changing the regalia of his office often compared to other Wizards. He should have sticked with this stick and none of the later trouble would have happened, I am sure.

Actually, it has been suggested that it's meant to be the SAME staff, only the top is curled up more tightly in this earlier film -- like a bud which is still in the process of opening. That would imply the staff is actually made of LIVING wood in some sense ... which I think is a rather nice, Tolkien-esque conceit!

An interesting notion and indeed a nice Tolkien-esque detail.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Well looks like I went on holidays just as things were getting interesting.

Indeed. I think you left precisely the day the trailer was released, and all hell broke loose. You'll have to read the 50 last pages to catch up everything that has been said. In the meantime, you should know that the member known as "K.K. The Merciful" has stolen your job as "Grand Music Analyst" of this forum.

Better give us some deeper thoughts on The Company Of The Dwarves' theme than the ones K.K. gave us. Else, I'm afraid we'll have to ban you.

Apparently I've done an inadequete job of being you while you were away, Incanus (although I wasn't trying to be, I can't handle that kind of pressure! ). Ayways its great to see you posting again, hopefully you enjoyed your holidays. After forgiving Bloodboal for his negligence (he dared called the dwarves theme "generic" at first...stirred up quite the drama ), I seemed to have been blessed with the title of "KK the Merciful". I had to also fight off some blasphemous claims on Shore's music for LOTR while you were gone (look at the Tintin Sequel thread)...I was practically doing your job (or so others have told me...)! Pull it together man!

The analysis btw is somewhere on this page:

http://www.jwfan.com...c=14385&st=2800

Talking about the Dwarves' theme, while I like it more with each listen, I truly hope this won't be the main theme for both films (a la History Of The Ring). This is The Hobbit, after all, so it seems only natural that the main theme should be Bilbo's theme, or some new theme related to the Shire.

I doubt this will be what the "History of the Ring" was for LOTR. It will be much like the Fellowship theme as in it'll receive significant showtime at the formation of the company and become more sparse as we approach the end of the second film. I believe the larger focus will be on the new theme Shore concocts for Bilbo and the Lonely Mountain. Speaking of the Lonely Mountain, I was discussing this interesting idea with someone back on the Filmtraks board.

If you listen to 1:12 - 1:31 at Very Old Friends (FOTR CR), you'll hear this haunting tune on a light female voices. This plays over the scene in which Gandalf mysteriously looks at the Lonely Mountain/Smaug when he picks up the map. Another fellow suggested Shore might expand on this tune in the upcoming Hobbit films. Now initially, I found that highly unlikely. But after some time, it no longer seemed so far fetched. This is what Doug Adams writes in his analysis of this cue:

"Of course, yet another kind of expectation is articulated in a passing glance ata familiar-looking map adorned with a dragon. Shore smiles, 'It's just a little hint of mystery and intrigue'" (Adams 142).

Its quite possible that this could be something to look forward to in the Hobbit films. After all, people thought the Gondor theme wasn't really a theme when they first heard it at the Council of Elrond scene (although, in that case, Shore was prepared for 2 more LOTR films where as he did not know The Hobbit films were to exist in the future). If Shore brings this melody back, I would be overjoyed! It just excites me when Shore pays attention to all these tiny thematic details!

Let this Dwarves' theme be the main theme of just the first film (as was the Fellowship's theme sort of the "main" theme of FOTR)

Many themes that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them BloodBoal? Who are you to pass judgement on thematic placement?

Mckellen looks like he never left the role. The dramatic intonations, the pauses, the voice, the looks. it's all there.

McKellen looks like he's impersonating himself playing Gandalf. That's... weird.

McKellen's performances seem brilliant , as usual. Although that was to be expected! To think that there was actually a moment of doubt about his return. As noted before, I also like how PJ and crew designed the staff so that it appears to be blooming into its incarnation in the trilogy. Martin Freeman however has surprised me. He seems like the perfect young Bilbo (I expected to be disappointed)!

- KK the Merciful

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

I just read the novel again (in English) on my Christmas holiday. It really has a delightful atmosphere but one of the things I noted this time was how little actual dialogue there is. The omniscient narrator is quite prevalent but that is to be expected. Tolkien makes an extensive use of it in all his work.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Yes, I wonder if The Hobbit might be even more difficult to turn into a film than LOTR. At the very least, I'm convinced they have to invent more stuff (dialogue, in any case) to make the whole affair filmable.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So we will never see part 2?