Is Williams still capable of writing iconic fanfares etc?

[Incanus 5,715]

There are so many different kind of films. In some music plays an important role and in others it is less noticeable. It has to do with the way the music is used in any given film. But of course the music has to be written for the film. Some composers have more to say with their music than others but I do not think you would get very far in film scoring business if you just wrote the music for yourself.

[Red 75]

Are we discussing this because JW hasn't written a score in a while and some (not me) are doubting if he will ever score a film again? Anyway, the answer is yes, John Williams can still write great music, just because we haven't heard anything in a while doesn't mean that John's talent has suddenly dried up.

[Jeshopk 8]

I still say music unheard in not relevant,  

if Helen Keller fell down in the woods and screamed, even she wouldn't hear it. That sounds cold, and mean, but music is meant to be heard, its noble for artists(and I use the term lightly, musical craftsman is better) to say they make the music for themselves, but film music isn't written for John Williams, or even Steven Spielberg, its written for the film. The purpose of the film is to be seen and heard, to find an audience. So there is merit to the idea that being popular is ok. There are plenty of great scores out there to films noone saw, that no one heard. It makes the films music irrelevant, despite what anyone here says to counter.  

Music is meant to be heard, and if not, then it matters not.

But what if just YOU hear the music, but nobody else does? Does music have to be known by others for it to matter to YOU? My love for Williams' music has always been something very personal. I never shared it with anyone for years. There was no internet and no Williams fans I knew of. I listened to my records alone and took in every note.

[Maestro 147]

As much as I love "iconic" Williams from the 70s/80s (and, believe me, I do), I think I prefer the more emotionally flowing, organic themes he's written in the last decade or two (Rosewood, Tibet, Saving Private Ryan, A.I., ROTS) over the themes that can easily be made into monophonic ringtones.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

As much as I love "iconic" Williams from the 70s/80s (and, believe me, I do), I think I prefer the more emotionally flowing, organic themes he's written in the last decade or two (Rosewood, Tibet, Saving Private Ryan, A.I., ROTS) over the themes that can easily be made into monophonic ringtones.

[Red 75]

To each his own.

[Marcus 390]

I have to say I agree with Maestro, or rather: I think Williams' recent output is some of his best, and I think his lyricism is more mature, more profound now that he is an older, wiser composer. Not that I don't find his work from the 70's and 80's lacking in profundity, wisdom or brilliance.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Or tone deaf. That happens with age as well.

[Marcus 390]

Actually, tone deafness (which is a highly suspect term) has nothing to do with age or general hearing loss.

And as composers, we rely more on our "mind's ear". Well-nurtured and disciplined musicality is relatively immune to most ailments.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I think it speaks volumes when somebody's work leaves others wanting more. And it speaks more volumes when you decline giving it to them to pursue something fresher, more challenging and likely to receive less praise. Commitment to one's art should be stronger than applause.

[Romão 2,274]

Very well put, Ender!

[Hitch 57]

I can't wait to hear his John Wilkes Booth theme for the upcoming Lincoln biopic.

[JMan 0]

I think that Lincoln could be made into an awesome film and score. Hopefully Spielberg will be realistic about Indy 4 and go right to Lincoln. I have a feeling that 08 or 09 could be another double decker with Interstellar and Lincoln.

[johnnyammonite 0]

I think artists have a natural tendency towards abstraction as they mature. Purely playing with the elements of the medium may become more interesting than playing with concrete ideas and verisimilitude.

That said, I think that Williams is more than capable of writing the iconic themes many of us grew up and fell in love with. I remember the 1st time I went to see "Harry Potter:1" and I adored the music and all of the catchy themes. The 2nd one not so much (but then, that wasn't much him...) and I thought that the music to the 3rd movie was even better than the first. And I honestly have thought several times while listening to the music of those movies, "Oh, he's going back to his old style." He once again made some music thet matches characters or scenes in the same way he tackled Star Wars and movies of that era. I think the highest testament to the "iconic-ness" of these HP themes is that they keep getting used in the previews for the new movies. (We'll see if Doyle's score is used in the ad for HP:5.)

More interesting is trying to guess why he chose to do that for those movies. Did the directors say, "We need loads of themes for the characters"? Did he decide that these are children's movies and so they should have thematic music children would latch on to? I don't know to be honest, but wouldn't be surprised if it was b/c of the latter.

[Marcus 390]

Wonderfully and very eloquently put, johnnyammonite! There is much wisdom in your post!

[Henry B 50]

Indeed; the fanboyism abounds.

I mean--wisdom.

[Marcus 390]

I'm sorry; why is it immediately deemed an act of "fanboyism" to state anything hinting at the possibility of Williams still being as good as he ever was? From a purely technical, unsentimental point of view, I can't find anything to suggest that his brilliance has diminished.

[Ollie 1,059]

Indeed; the fanboyism abounds.

I mean--wisdom.

Indeed it does.... :cool:

[s.mess 0]

This would pertain to the "etc" portion of the topic. I think he can still do a nice fanfare. It is the minor themes where his composing style has taken a downturn (although I'm still a huge fan). Consider The Empire Strikes Back score vs any of the prequel scores. Williams always creates about 3 new major themes for each SW fan (even that was somewhat thin with the prequels), but the reason that the older scores are so well loved is because of all of the memorable minor themes he created that were 1. Memorable and 2.Lyrical almost in the same sense that a "major theme" would be. Consider ESB (for major themes, we'll say "Yoda", "Imperial March" and "Han & Leia" are the majors. When you look at the film, consider 1. The music from the AT At battle 2.Hyperspace (used twice in the movie) 3.Cloud City's theme 4.The music used when the Falcon is preparing to escape from the slug. All of these are recognizable to certain parts of the movie and could almost be developed into concert suites themselves. I find this severely lacking in the prequels. Maybe the inspiration for that many new themes is no longer there. Say what you will about Lucas and his musical editing, but maybe he chopped everything up so much because so much of the new material sounds like other Williams themes from Hook, or any other 1990's JW score.

[Marcus 390]

I highly doubt that Lucas' editing has anything to do with the music Williams delivered (that would also be sort of like working backwards). I do think that the apparent lack of more developed "minor" themes in the prequels has to do with so few of the characters being memorable, or being given scenes where such music would be fitting. Williams gave us Jar-Jar's theme, which was more developed than, say, the music he offered for the droids, another theme he had to more or less abandon simply because there probably wasn't much room for it in RotJ.

The prequels were very likely a rather ungrateful job for Williams, since so much (of the films) was assembled and re-assembled at very late stages. I think the prequels themselves are much less memorable than the music Williams penned for them.

[Ollie 1,059]

The prequels were very likely a rather ungrateful job for Williams, since so much (of the films)  was assembled and re-assembled at very late stages. I think the prequels themselves are much less memorable than the music Williams penned for them.

I agree.

But....

While Williams is still at the top of his game the days of Raiders, E.T., Superman and Star Wars are over. He can still come up with good themes but I doubt we will see something that will be as memorable as the those from the past.

[Maestro 147]

...or maybe it was just a stylistic choice.

[Ollie 1,059]

That's possible.

[Red 75]

Not many will argue that his hey-day is over.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

...or maybe it was just a stylistic choice.

It's a bad choice.

[Maestro 147]

Says you!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

From a purely technical, unsentimental point of view, I can't find anything to suggest that his brilliance has diminished.

Music is much more than a purely technical, unsentimental thing. There is no doubt he can write music well. But face it, the creativity and heart is getting rarer and rarer. We've heard the same flourishes, the same triplets, the same rhythms, the same little musical details and droning for the past 10 years; and where once those ideas were done with heart and with creativity, they are now fed to us in a dull, predictable, mathemtical fashion, not unlike your own cold pedantic arguments.

[Ollie 1,059]

He's nearing the end of his career and much like an athelete nearing his end, the skills diminish.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

He's got a long ways to fall though. Even though he's not what he was, he is still one of the best.

Another problem is, he keeps signing up for movies that require a lot of supenseful music and ambience, two styles that are probably his weakest points these days. I dare say, he's one of the most boring at coming up with interesting suspense/ambience music.

[Jeshopk 8]

I don't see how you could say that he's bad at suspense writing. I don't hear what you mean. In comparison to others? Who others? Who's better at suspense than Williams?

Not many will argue that his hey-day is over.

But the heyday of influential blockbuster films with orchestral accompaniment is over too. Those films are seen as nothing more than racehorses these days. It's all a horse race. His output now would have been just as famous as his "heyday" output if it accompanied the same films, at the same time in movie history.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I don't see how you could say that he's bad at suspense writing. I don't hear what you mean. In comparison to others? Who others? Who's better at suspense than Williams?

See Minority Report. See War of the Worlds. See Nixon. See Munich. See RotS. See AI. See Saving Private Ryan. See Sleepers.

Sure, lots of complex stuff, but not really interesting. War of the Worlds for instance, lots of deep layers of dissonance, but not a bit of it actually brings out depth in the movie. You could just as easily replace it with subtle pulsating fuzz and the movie would go on with little difference.

Compare to Basic Instinct, Sleeping With the Enemy, The Vanishing, Poltergeist, Poltergeist II, Sleepy Hollow, The Missing, Alien, Star Trek TMP, Apollo 13, Les Miserables, even Williams' own The Fury, Close Encounters from the 70's.

[Ollie 1,059]

Sleeping With the Enemy, Apollo 13

There's really nothing suspenseful about those two scores.

[Seth 67]

See Minority Report. See War of the Worlds.

I have to disagree-these two scores are brilliant in how they serve their film. Is melodic or harmonic interest sacrificed to accomplish this? Perhaps. But in the place of those two areas, Williams shows his mastery of the orchestra and how it can be used as an organic, cohesive unit that sounds like it is a part of the environment of the film. I hope that makes sense. As for SPR, I don't find anything wrong with the approach Williams took. I think it would have cheapened the film if he had scored it with lots of overt brass, percussion, etc. The approach he took, while not making the best album, is elegiac and appropriate for the film, which is the ultimate goal of the film composer. Just my two cents.

[crocodile 8,018]

But the heyday of influential blockbuster films with orchestral accompaniment is over too. Those films are seen as nothing more than racehorses these days. It's all a horse race.

Yes, now you have a MAJOR BLOCKBUSTER every week. They aren't events anymore.

His output now would have been just as famous as his "heyday" output if it accompanied the same films, at the same time in movie history.

That's interesting. I haven't thought of it that way. But I am not so sure about it. After all his current work is in fact less accessible than most of his legendary works. I remember some Williams interview when he mentioned that it's obvious for him to slow down, because of his age. So, I believe that he knows he's work isn't as fresh and energetic as before.

Karol

[Marcus 390]

Blumenkohl, I'm sorry that my arguments seem so cold and pedantic to you, but then again, if you find "Minority Report", "Sleepers", "Nixon" and especially "Saving Private Ryan" to be examples of uninteresting suspenseful writing, I think it is fair to say that we hear and respond to music very differently. I think there are new and different forms of complexity in Williams' more recent output, both dramatically and musically. And I don't think he's any more or less "calculated" than he ever was, whatever you mean by that.

There's always an intellectual aspect to composing, and there's nothing unromantic or threatening or cold or pedantic about that. If you really want to study "calculation" in an artistic sense, look at Mozart or Ravel or Haydn: All the greatest, truest art comes from mastery of craft ("inspiration" is sometimes substituted for this, but they are in fact quite related), and the better we get, the better we write.

I think Williams seems to always be concerned with challenging himself, but on levels that are often subtle, and not necessarily so obvious unless you truly know your technique as a composer.

Summing up: That which is "affect" for the listener is "effect" for the composer. It is not our own feelings that really matter, but the audience's.

(And may I just add that "Saving Private Ryan" is certainly one of my candidates for Williams' deepest score)

[scissorhands 16]

Well, I don't find Marcus' words to be pedantic, he's just subscribing (and argumenting) to what others think: that John Williams has become a more intellectual composer (as he said, both dramatically and musically) over the years.

Please check out Saving Private Ryan again (my candidate for emotionally deepest score).

[Jeshopk 8]

See Minority Report. See War of the Worlds. See Nixon. See Munich. See RotS. See AI. See Saving Private Ryan. See Sleepers.  

Sure, lots of complex stuff, but not really interesting. War of the Worlds for instance, lots of deep layers of dissonance, but not a bit of it actually brings out depth in the movie. You could just as easily replace it with subtle pulsating fuzz and the movie would go on with little difference.  

Compare to Basic Instinct, Sleeping With the Enemy, The Vanishing, Poltergeist, Poltergeist II, Sleepy Hollow, The Missing, Alien, Star Trek TMP, Apollo 13, Les Miserables, even Williams' own The Fury, Close Encounters from the 70's.

So comparing your favorite scores to your least favorite scores somehow proves something? I'm sorry, but if you think pulsating fuzz would be just as effectve as Minority Report, War of the Worlds, Nixon, Munich, RotS, AI, Saving Private Ryan and Sleepers.....

Let's just say you have no credibility.

[Henry B 50]

Marcus, Jeshopk, et al...

Do you have a least favorite score or cue by Williams? If so, why?

[Jeshopk 8]

Sure. Cinderella Liberty is my least favorite so far. It is a score that is mainly a series of 70's pop arrangements - not as inventive as Earthquake, Eiger Sanction or John Goldfarb. For symphonic scores, my least favorite would be Heidi. It isn't timeless sounding, and is a bit schmaltzy. It is sort of in bad taste at times - more like Broadway than serious composition.

Since Schindlers List, Williams has been consistent. I was initially dissapointed on first hearing with his previous scores - Hook and Far and Away were too tonal. Jurassic Park was too tonal for me except the Raptor music. But then he finally returned to his chromatic and complex writing I was familiar with growing up. He has only gotten better since the low point of Hook. Now, I can enjoy Hook for what it is. Its ok that he dabbled in over-tonality for a few years as long as he would return to the darker more complex music he wrote for Superman, Star Wars, etc. He has given us an abundance of his Golden Era Style in movies like War of the Worlds. Perhaps there is something you're not hearing, or perhaps you are too attracted to melodies, which never really made up the bulk of Williams' scores anyway.

[Marcus 390]

Cerrabore,

I don't think of it that way, I don't really "rank" Williams' scores, although I do think paticular scores stand out in certain regards... John Williams is one of my favorite composers of all time. Period. And the more I study him, the more layers and the more finesse do I discover in his craft, and I have found it exceptionally intriguing to study his more recent output in the light of his entire ouvre, and also the relation between his film and concert works.

I find John Williams' musical language to be remarkably "complete", and I think he is one of the select few composers who has the ability to be very clear and very complex at the same time. I think he has truly incredible scope and depth as a musical dramatist, and I think that given the broadness of his compositional talent and technical palette, it is quite astounding that he reached a level of great musical maturity relatively early, and equally astounding that he has continued to grow.

If pressed to name my least favorite works of Williams', I would have to say his very earliest film work, perhaps, but this is hardly fair, as it is the work of a young (but very gifted and bright) composer who was right at the threshold of becoming what he was seemingly meant to become. And even his very earliest efforts are still interesting to me, as I learn a lot from studying Williams' development.

[Maestro 147]

Now this is good message board stuff!

[Red 75]

Sure. Cinderella Liberty is my least favorite so far. It is a score that is mainly a series of 70's pop arrangements - not as inventive as Earthquake, Eiger Sanction or John Goldfarb. For symphonic scores, my least favorite would be Heidi. It isn't timeless sounding, and is a bit schmaltzy. It is sort of in bad taste at times - more like Broadway than serious composition.

Since Schindlers List, Williams has been consistent. I was initially dissapointed on first hearing with his previous scores - Hook and Far and Away were too tonal. Jurassic Park was too tonal for me except the Raptor music. But then he finally returned to his chromatic and complex writing I was familiar with growing up. He has only gotten better since the low point of Hook. Now, I can enjoy Hook for what it is. Its ok that he dabbled in over-tonality for a few years as long as he would return to the darker more complex music he wrote for Superman, Star Wars, etc. He has given us an abundance of his Golden Era Style in movies like War of the Worlds. Perhaps there is something you're not hearing, or perhaps you are too attracted to melodies, which never really made up the bulk of Williams' scores anyway.

Thems fightin' words, Jeshopk.

[King Mark 3,631]

But Heidi has some amazing tracks,like The Miracle and Meditation,even if the Main Theme is is over the top

K.M.

[Jeshopk 8]

Agreed. It is hard to find anything symphonic of his that I wholly dislike. But if I had to choose one orchestral score of his I have heard, then I choose Heidi.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

See Minority Report. See War of the Worlds. See Nixon. See Munich. See RotS. See AI. See Saving Private Ryan. See Sleepers.  

Sure, lots of complex stuff, but not really interesting. War of the Worlds for instance, lots of deep layers of dissonance, but not a bit of it actually brings out depth in the movie. You could just as easily replace it with subtle pulsating fuzz and the movie would go on with little difference.  

Compare to Basic Instinct, Sleeping With the Enemy, The Vanishing, Poltergeist, Poltergeist II, Sleepy Hollow, The Missing, Alien, Star Trek TMP, Apollo 13, Les Miserables, even Williams' own The Fury, Close Encounters from the 70's.

So comparing your favorite scores to your least favorite scores somehow proves something? I'm sorry, but if you think pulsating fuzz would be just as effectve as Minority Report, War of the Worlds, Nixon, Munich, RotS, AI, Saving Private Ryan and Sleepers.....

Let's just say you have no credibility.

You misunderstand my analogy.

My point being, most of Williams new and more "intellectual" and "subtle" material, that so many people seem to be in awe of because they see it as a major leap and develpment, can very easily be replaced with something else and the difference would be virtually unnnoticable.

There is no defining musical identity to any of the scores I mentioned. It's all the same things we have seen before, just done quietly. You could replace many of these said JW suspense parts of RoTS with material from Nixon, and you could take suspense from Munich and put it in Minority Report or War of the Worlds.

Suspense music is a field that requires an immense amount of creativity, not only to create background music, but to make that background music lift what's on screen to the point where it becomes inseperable from the picture.

Suspense is something you can't score with intellect and mastery of craft alone.

Bernard Herrmann could do it, Goldsmith could do it, Williams unfortunately tends to fall into the category of boring.

Case in point, the difference between those who find Williams' latest material as amazing and those who do not is quite simple:

If you think it's amazing, you're looking at the writing. You're rating complexity and craft, not music. And I have no argument with anyone over John Williams' craft or complexity.

If you think it leaves things to be desired, you're listening to the music.

[publicist 4,643]

One is left head-scratching why in all this flowery prose above, nobody seems to realize that apart from whatever artistic progression Williams may have gone through, he's still scoring A FILM...so whatever the aesthetic demands of a modern action film may be, obviously they are not the same as in the 70's.

You may as well ask if his less cerebral way of scoring is a direct result of directors and producers friendly asking him to tone it down. That's at least the impression I get from listening to 'Munich' or the likes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That much is certain.

[Jeshopk 8]

My point being, most of Williams new and more "intellectual" and "subtle" material, that so many people seem to be in awe of because they see it as a major leap and develpment, can very easily be replaced with something else and the difference would be virtually unnnoticable.

That's just a wrong statement. Williams music adds so much to the afore mentioned modern movies that no other composer could. Its not just complexity but that so much thought is put into the way each moment of scoring will help tell the story. He helps actors get closer to the script by adding more feeling to their stories. Listen to the music in Attack of the Clones when Obi Wan is questioning Anakin about his Mother on Padme's balcony. Williams doesn't just write sadness or longing, but a very specific kind of sadness that implies the psychic connection they share, with its religious chord droning beneath Shmi's line. He puts emphasis on the scene that tells you something is amiss. It also has a dark undercurrent that foreshadows the events later in the film surrounding his mother which ties the story together. Listen to 100 other moments (as intentionally scored - not retracked) in any of your most hated modern Williams films, and note what is actually going on. Listen to the Spiders track in Minority Report, which isn't played as some awesome technological marvel that the police are capable of. It depicts the spiders as menacing which fits the larger theme of the film as the police's intrusive capabilities being somewhat evil. Its a frightening world Spielberg paints in which the poor people of the apartment have to deal with warrantless searches by frightening robots - and I could see a Bruckheimer movie having some super technological and cool music for the spiders sequence.

There is no defining musical identity to any of the scores I mentioned. It's all the same things we have seen before, just done quietly. You could replace many of these said JW suspense parts of RoTS with material from Nixon, and you could take suspense from Munich and put it in Minority Report or War of the Worlds.

You could just not do that. Not anymore than you could have taken any 80's Williams and put it over any other 80's Williams. Are you saying that the Harry Potter Theme would go well in the Minority Report Magnetic Car Chase? I'll tell you this, Superman's Chasing Rockets would have gone well in parts of Star Wars. Desert Chase would have gone will with Superman. Every score has music similar to his other music. Weren't people saying "All Williams Sounds the Same" even in the 70's and 80's? Yes, as I recall they were. People were gradually enlightened about Williams' diversity. Many people STILL say Williams' 80's music is all the same.

Suspense music is a field that requires an immense amount of creativity, not only to create background music, but to make that background music lift what's on screen to the point where it becomes inseperable from the picture.  

Suspense is something you can't score with intellect and mastery of craft alone.

Give me a concreate example of a scene that was intended by the director to be suspenseful, but where Williams' music fell flat. Suspense means when the viewer knows something that the characters don't. Like when there is a bomb under the table. I'll give a great example of one that he did very well. The scene when the centipedes attack Padme in bed. That scene is a great moment of suspense scoring, and the complexity only adds to the tension. If all you feel is white noise, perhaps you shouldn't read so many spoilers.

Bernard Herrmann could do it, Goldsmith could do it, Williams unfortunately tends to fall into the category of boring.

Give examples. You can't just put all of his dark underscore in the category of "suspense". What suspenseful scenes had boring music? Maybe the scenes weren't supposed to be suspenseful, or perhaps they were suspenseful enough on their own without the music telling you how to feel. When John Anderton drinks the wrong water and eats the wrong sandwich - the music is disturbed because the whole audience was going to be saying to themselves "no!" The scene without music was completely suspenseful, so Williams and Spielberg pushed the queasy button to make people nauseous. He shouldn't have written that moment as if it was Lois Lane falling off a skyscraper!

Case in point, the difference between those who find Williams' latest material as amazing and those who do not is quite simple:  

If you think it's amazing, you're looking at the writing. You're rating complexity and craft, not music. And I have no argument with anyone over John Williams' craft or complexity.  

If you think it leaves things to be desired, you're listening to the music.

How completely presumptive of you. I am listening to the music and feeling it. It isn't that I'm simply impressed by the craft of his writing. I don't like modern composers who leave out the emotional content. Williams' music hits me in the gut and the heart, and it is because of the craft and complexity - just as it always was with Williams. There are certain people who just can not compute anything that doesn't provide them a steady flow of standard melody and counterpoint. Once it gets beyond a few direct emotional cues, certain people just don't have the brain to process it all. Williams' "stupidest" score was Hook. It was a great score, but it was something that could be understood by anyone. It was based on songs. It was childrens' music. These are not childrens' movies we are discussing Unless you're including TPM and HP in your critique). An adult should be able to compute the harmonic and melodic content inside the complexity without having to try at all. And a child should be challenged from time to time as well, especially if his parents and a legion of grown up fans will be accompanying them. Williams writes for himself as well as his audience. And that audience has largely grown up. You haven't heard complaints from the filmmakers have you?

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually you could swap much of Goldsmith's 1990 - 2004 music with each other and not tell a difference.

As much as I love Herrmann he was also guilty of re-using music.

[crocodile 8,018]

Williams music adds so much to the afore mentioned modern movies that no other composer could. Its not just complexity but that so much thought is put into the way each moment of scoring will help tell the story. He helps actors get closer to the script by adding more feeling to their stories.

So was John Williams ever wrong?

Karol, who thinks it would be a good topic for a new thread.