What is JW's best love theme?

[Trumpeteer 302]

"I wrote a very romantic theme for Princess Leia. I thought of it in terms of when Luke sees her for the first time and he says how beautiful she is. It is a fairy tale type princess melody"

I have not doubt that Luke's LOVE feelings for the Princess are clearly present in Leia's Theme, and that was the general consensus 25 years ago. 'Princess Leia's Theme' is the first and the best LOVE THEME of the saga.

A romantic theme is not necessarily a love theme, Ricard. Though a love theme is inherently romantic. Confused yet?

So John Williams was not contradicting himself. Leia's theme portrays the romantic beauty we all see in her, but it does not signify an attraction that Leia has with anyone in the film, be it Luke or Han.

I'm trying to think of another romantic theme that Williams wrote that is about the person it was written for and does not convey feelings of love towards another. But I can't. I think this is the only theme of its kind in Williams' repertoire. His other (major) romantic themes are love themes, involving two people.

[Morn 8]

I wouldn't exactly call it a full love theme, but mostly agree with you.

[scissorhands 16]

So John Williams was not contradicting himself. Leia's theme portrays the romantic beauty we all see in her, but it does not signify an attraction that Leia has with anyone in the film, be it Luke or Han.

Hey. Now read the same, but this time with dinosaurs and JP Theme instead of Leia and her theme, and you will see that Marian was right.

[Morn 8]

Heh, but Leia's theme related to romance. She is the beautiful female who the 2 male characters are after.

[Ricard 2,245]

A romantic theme is not necessarily a love theme, Ricard. Though a love theme is inherently romantic. Confused yet?.

Oh yes, I'm very confused because I'm so ignorant about the issue (I'm new to Williams music, you know), and I was waiting for your enlightening explanation, which was well deserved since I clearly stated, repeatedly, that a romantic theme was necessarily a love theme.

So John Williams was not contradicting himself. Leia's theme portrays the romantic beauty we all see in her, but it does not signify an attraction that Leia has with anyone in the film, be it Luke or Han.

Oh, I'm sorry for thinking that I could have a different opinion about that. I didn't know that I was simply wrong and you had the objective truth!

PS. I can't wait for the next lesson.

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

Well, first of all, Han Solo is not Attracted by the Princess in ANH. ANd neither is the princess. In fact Han-Princess kind of hate breaks in the end, and they end like Friends (typical ) Luke is the one Kissed (in the cheek :roll: ) in this movie.

Well, When does Leia's theme appear full-blown in the movie? when she appears in the first time, and I dont think that Artoo, neither Threepio and much less the Stomtroopers are fallen in love with her. The next time it appears, it is when Artoo displays the message. The first time for luke, and the second for obi-wan. Is he an old perverted man or what? And in some early scripts Luke was going to be a girl, and i'm sure leia's theme would have also been played. (but who knows maybe it was Prince Liam or something, but i think leia's been a girl always)

I dont mind if leia's theme is a love one or not. I'll prefer it as a love theme. I'm only saying this because Anakin's in the same kind of theme, and if one is, the other too. And Anakin's is played frecuently when he is speaking with his mother, whom he loves. (and I think that when he speaks with Padme, the theme is also played, and he loves her too)

All starwars movies have a kind of love theme, and anakin's in the one from TPM.

[Guest]

Well I, for one, absolutey LOVE Carrie Fisher, and think she is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

So if Johnny T contradicted himself(which I'm sure he would never do) then so be it.

Love theme from ATOC is the true winner. You can tell by the construction that this is a theme, not a lietmotif or tune that is developed.

[Marian Schedenig 8,261]

Hey. Now read the same, but this time with dinosaurs and JP Theme instead of Leia and her theme, and you will see that Marian was right.  

Hehe....because I wouldn't classify Leia's Theme as a love theme. It's a romantic theme, no doubt, and a theme of "adoration" if you will. It certainly has a touch of a love theme, but I think it's purpose is different.

Anyway, if it was a love theme, it would clearly be the best of the whole list.

Marian - who adores that theme.

[Ross 1]

Well, first of all, Han Solo is not Attracted by the Princess in ANH. ANd neither is the princess. In fact Han-Princess kind of hate breaks in the end, and they end like Friends (typical ) Luke is the one Kissed (in the cheek  :roll: ) in this movie.

Well, When does Leia's theme appear full-blown in the movie? when she appears in the first time, and I dont think that Artoo, neither Threepio and much less the Stomtroopers are fallen in love with her. The next time it appears, it is when Artoo displays the message. The first time for luke, and the second for obi-wan. Is he an old perverted man or what? And in some early scripts Luke was going to be a girl, and i'm sure leia's theme would have also been played. (but who knows maybe it was Prince Liam or something, but i think leia's been a girl always)

All starwars movies have a kind of love theme, and anakin's in the one from TPM.

Okay Luke before anything else, I would like to see if you agree in some statements known to be true:

1.- George Lucas isn't always right, even when talking about the Star Wars Universe.

2.- Not everything in Star Wars makes perfect scientific sense and we are forced to believe it (which isn't necesarily a bad thing).

3.- Since there is more than one way to like Star Wars, there is more than one way to interpret Star Wars, even if it isn't the makers' way (and that involves writers, actors, directors, or producers).

4.- Some things in the Star Wars movies are not called for and are only included in the movie for commercial reasons (i.e. to make more action figures).

Just need to know if you'll agree these facts are true.

-ROSS

[ymenard 54]

Well I would vote for something like "E.T. and me", because well it's an intense emotional attachment between Elliott and E.T. (which is love), and it's the most beautiful piece he has created. The harp rendition, and there's I think a clarinet once in the score, it's amazing and I tear each time

[King Mark 3,631]

Han and the Princess.It's the most versatile.Subtle love theme,action or dramatic scenes.

K.M.Who remembers voting for this exact same thread,or was it?

[Justin 2]

Well, first of all, Han Solo is not Attracted by the Princess in ANH. ANd neither is the princess. In fact Han-Princess kind of hate breaks in the end, and they end like Friends (typical ) Luke is the one Kissed (in the cheek  :roll: ) in this movie.

LOL

Justin -Who thinks Luke is correct.

[King Mark 3,631]

Actually if Lucas re tincles with the original trilogy,ONE good scene to cut out is the kiss between Luke and Leia in ESB,along with the corny dialogue that acompanies it.

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why?

Stefancos- ?

[Justin 2]

Yeah what's your problem with it?

Justin - :?

[scissorhands 16]

Because people already know they are brother-sister. Then, the audience would say "INCEST, INCEST!!!".

Wait, I read somewhere that, in fact, people said that while watching the film when it was released. How is it possible, if you don't know they are brother and sister till the next film?

scissorhands - wondering

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's possible they said that during the 97 re-releases of the films.

Stefancos- who hopes Lucas will stay the hell away from the original trilogy, but knows he will not.

[King Mark 3,631]

I always hated that quip by Han to Chewy"Laugh it up Fuzzball".And the kiss too.Almost as bad as when Luke tells C3P0 to use his powers in ROTJ when they are trapped and the stupid Ewoks start revering the droid as a god.Or the horribly acted scene when Luke tells Leia she's his sister and Darth Vader is father on the wok village...oh,and my favourite"You are officially now part of the tribe"C3P0.Even Harrison Ford looked embarasseed in that scene.

K.M.Pointing out not only TPM and AOTC had bad scenes.

[Marian Schedenig 8,261]

Actually if Lucas re tincles with the original trilogy,ONE good scene to cut out is the kiss between Luke and Leia in ESB,along with the corny dialogue that acompanies it.

Hey, that's one of the funniest scenes in the whole trilogy!

Marian - who also likes the other scenes mentioned.

Vertigo (Bernard Herrmann)

[King Mark 3,631]

The only good scene fearuring Ewoks is the one where they run away in defeat and one gets fired on by an AT-ST.

BTW,that scene has a cool Williams "tragedy" motif.It plays twice I think.

K.M.

[Ricard 2,245]

I always hated that quip by Han to Chewy"Laugh it up Fuzzball".And the kiss too.Almost as bad as when Luke tells C3P0 to use his powers in ROTJ when they are trapped and the stupid Ewoks start revering the droid as a god..

Both great scenes, IMHO.

Or the horribly acted scene when Luke tells Leia she's his sister and Darth Vader is father on the wok village....

Don't have a problem with it.

oh,and my favourite"You are officially now part of the tribe"C3P0.Even Harrison Ford looked embarasseed in that scene..

But Mark, he was supposed to look embarassed. :roll:

K.M.Pointing out not only TPM and AOTC had bad scenes.

Of course, but they are both faaaaaaaaar worse than ROTJ.

Ricard - Who likes ROTJ and has no problem with the Ewoks.

Ricard II - Who does not consider Williams' 'Victory Celebration'(1996) as part of the Star Wars Trilogy

[DU Lou 1]

Or the horribly acted scene when Luke tells Leia she's his sister and Darth Vader is father on the wok village....

Don't have a problem with it.

I agree with Ricard, however I do think Williams music did a good job of adding maturity to the scene and removed any possible campiness there MAY have been if it was not scored.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I answered Han and Leia.....

However, now I am having 2nd thoughts.

I think it is a tie between that and Superman.

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

Okay Luke before anything else, I would like to see if you agree in some statements known to be true:

(what has it to do with this discussion?)

1.- George Lucas isn't always right, even when talking about the Star Wars Universe.

Well if George Lucas says something about the SW universe, eso 'va a misa', even if it contradicts Expanded universe (sad 8O) or ect. Regarding other themes, and things he ahs an opinion, like all people, and i do not have to agree with him.

2.- Not everything in Star Wars makes perfect scientific sense and we are forced to believe it (which isn't necesarily a bad thing).

You mean we are or aren't forced to believe?

I know that things in SW do not make sense (have I ever stated the contrary?) I'm not THAT stupid

(anyway i could not think the space battles without sound)

3.- Since there is more than one way to like Star Wars, there is more than one way to interpret Star Wars, even if it isn't the makers' way (and that involves writers, actors, directors, or producers).

Yes, everyone can interpret it as they feel. But i still think the one that really counts is the makers'

4.- Some things in the Star Wars movies are not called for and are only included in the movie for commercial reasons (i.e. to make more action figures).

And what? Every movie that has merchandishing has that kind of things. (are they bad?) And the SW are full of strange names and things (the are many, but not all characters are named in the movie, and they are a big buch)

Just need to know if you'll agree these facts are true.

-ROSS

Couldn't you have asked it in another thread? NO one was mentioning lucas or EU... now you have set the bomb. (the one in all SW threads)

[Ross 1]

Couldn't you have asked it in another thread? NO one was mentioning lucas or EU... now you have set the bomb. (the one in all SW threads)

You might be right. I just saw you defending Lucas again, and had been waiting for many threads to ask you these questions. Anyway, let's see if Ricard thinks it should be removed to a thread of its own(at least, he has my permission to do so, if he ever needed it).

-ROSS, who isn't done with Luke yet. 8O

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Well, first of all, Han Solo is not Attracted by the Princess in ANH. ANd neither is the princess. In fact Han-Princess kind of hate breaks in the end, and they end like Friends (typical 8O ) Luke is the one Kissed (in the cheek  :roll: ) in this movie.

Luke maybe you really didn't see Star Wars?

Han is most definitely attracted to the Princess, and the Princess is attracted to Han. Its so obvious.

Why would Han say to Luke, Do you think a girl like her and a guy like me? and then Luke cuts him off quickly, NO.

And the Leia says, "Your Friend sure has courage".

both of these comments were made to show the attraction between the two.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Ummmm Han is attracted to the Princess maybe, but I REALLY DONT see the attraction of Leia to Han. She seems to slam his ass right up until the final moments when he returns with Luke.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Ummmm Han is attracted to the Princess maybe, but I REALLY DONT see the attraction of Leia to Han. She seems to slam his ass right up until the final moments when he returns with Luke.

Come on William, thats an obvious sign of attraction.

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

Luke maybe you really didn't see Star Wars?

YES Joe, i have seen it.

Why would Han say to Luke, Do you think a girl like her and a guy like me? and then Luke cuts him off quickly, NO.

I think you are wrong. He says that because he wants to tease Luke, because he knows he likes her. Thats typical human behavior. You know adults (han is 25 at least) tease a lot youngsters (luke is 18)

And damn he even didnt want to rescue her. If she had been a stunning but poor girl, she would have ended executed by Tarkin.

And the Leia says, "Your Friend sure has courage".

Yeah, sarcastically. I didnt see her eyes wide or amazed. She was saying he was kinda stupid.

Han is most definitely attracted to the Princess, and the Princess is attracted to Han.  Its so obvious.

PLEASE JOE, BE SERIOUS. You claim that lucas didn't knew (when he made SW) that Vader would be Luke's father nor Leia his sister (and i could agree with that). And then, he knew that Han and Leia were going to end up together? (because it suits you that Leia's theme is a love one)

When han and Leias speak, I do not hear Leia's theme. SO it cannot be a love theme for these two.

And leia says to luke (when he says that he though that han would stay in the rebellion) that he has to follow his own way. Yeah she cared ALOT if he left or not.

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

[quote name="Ross"

-ROSS' date=' who isn't done with Luke yet.

(What in the Hell did i to you?) :?

Luke, Puzzled BUT Prepared

PS: I hope you do the same with Neil and Joe, they are as recalcitrant as me defending their SW opinions.

[Morn 8]

I think you are wrong. He says that because he wants to tease Luke, because he knows he likes her. Thats typical human behavior. You know adults (han is 25 at least) tease a lot youngsters (luke is 18)

Don't forget Han says something like I don't know if I'm starting to like her or want to kill her.

And damn he even didnt want to rescue her. If she had been a stunning but poor girl, she would have ended executed by Tarkin.

Hey, he puts himself before the girl he likes, that fits his character.

[Ollie 1,069]

I picked the Love Theme from Superman. The concert version used for the End Credits is simply beautiful.

[Luke Skywalker 1,813]

I think you are wrong. He says that because he wants to tease Luke, because he knows he likes her. Thats typical human behavior. You know adults (han is 25 at least) tease a lot youngsters (luke is 18)

Don't forget Han says something like I don't know if I'm starting to like her or want to kill her.

And damn he even didnt want to rescue her. If she had been a stunning but poor girl, she would have ended executed by Tarkin.

Hey, he puts himself before the girl he likes, that fits his character.

He is sarcastic. No love there. He could intend that like her as a friend.

Putting himself before the girl she likes?

Thanks. I have another point. Han Solo, the lover (AND MATURED) would never do that.

[Morn 8]

I don't think he was that sarcastic, it at least shows attraction. Makes sense when you see TESB too.

And I'm sure he loves himself more than Leia at least in ANH.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Princess Leia a love theme?? Heh, an incestual one, not mere siblings love.

Sure, since 1983 the interaction between Luke and Leia in Star Wars (1977) can be judged as incestuous. But when that film was released neither the audience nor the characters knew they were brother and sister.

And as John Williams points out in the original liner notes from the Star Wars double album:

"I wrote a very romantic theme for Princess Leia. I thought of it in terms of when Luke sees her for the first time and he says how beautiful she is. It is a fairy tale type princess melody"

I have not doubt that Luke's LOVE feelings for the Princess are clearly present in Leia's Theme, and that was the general consensus 25 years ago. 'Princess Leia's Theme' is the first and the best LOVE THEME of the saga.

The Marion/Willie thread in the provisional forum brought to mind this old debate. In these sorts of action/adventure films, the theme for the female protagonist functions essentially as a "love theme" because her primary role in the film is love interest for the male protagonist. For some reason, it's still less clear to me that this is the case in Star Wars. I see where Ricard is coming from, and I concede that the revelations of Return of the Jedi may indeed be influencing my judgment somewhat, yet I'm still inclined to regard "Princess Leia's Theme" as first and foremost "a fairy tale type princess melody," in Williams's words -- or, as I put it earlier in this thread:

To me Leia's theme is more of a character theme rather than a love theme.

What does everybody else think?

It's not even that -- it's a purely archetypal theme. It represents the quintessential feminine fragility, beauty, and grace of a damsel in distress.

Of course, Princess Leia, for most of the movie, exemplifies those attributes only marginally at best: in the midst of her very rescue, she comes off instead brusque and commandeering.

In this respect, "Princess Leia's Theme" fails, so to speak. But it's obvious that Williams's intent was to delineate not Leia's personality but her role.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Alan seems to bring up very old threads more often than other people. Oh well, the Love Theme From Superman is the best. I can't believe so many people voted for Across The Stars.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Alan seems to bring up very old threads more often than other people.

That's probably true.

[John Crichton 4]

Hm, this one's from before my time as a regular. I know we've had at least a couple since. My top 3, in order:

Love Theme from Superman

Han Solo and the Princess

Across the Stars

[Red 75]

"Love Theme from Superman" from, well, you know.

Then "Han Solo and the Princess".

[Adam S. 0]

It would be nice to lay out all of the love theme he's ever written. There's a tremendous amount of variety when I think about it. Even something like Pete'N'Tillie, which is one of my favorites to play on the piano. Its quite lovely. Or Missouri Breaks, ET and Me, Jane Eyre, etc., etc. All beautiful in their own way and yet completely different from one another.

Han and Leia might be favorite though that's hard to say.

- Adam

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I dunno, most of these kinda lose the intimacy due to the [using another-poster's words] grand and sweeping quality [then again, I think the best love theme of all time is from Blade Runner, so keep that in mind]. Can You Read My Mind does manage to retain some of said intimacy in spite of that, so I voted for that.

[Demodex 557]

What is Monica's theme? Who the hell is Monica?

[Ollie 1,069]

It's from A.I.

[indy4 155]

"Love Theme from Superman," followed VERY VERY closely by "Han Solo and the Princess." It was a tough decision.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I still can't believe 11 people were stupid enough to vote for the love theme from AOTC, especially over the love theme from Superman,

[John Crichton 4]

Well, it was new at the time the poll was done.

[gsmaestro 0]

I've always LOVED the Superman love theme. It's beautiful and majestic at the same time. And even though the first 5 notes are ripped off from Richard Strauss's Death and Transfiguration, what Williams does with the theme transcends anything Strauss wrote.

George Shaw - Film Composer

http://georgeshawmusic.com

[Marian Schedenig 8,261]

I still can't believe 11 people were stupid enough to vote for the love theme from AOTC, especially over the love theme from Superman,

I'd do that, given the choice between the two. The Superman love theme is wonderful but pretty straightforward. I think of it more as an excellent theme within the score, and as an excellent B section to the march, than as a piece that can stand completely on its own as a concert cue, for example. Across the Stars is equally moving and equally good as a theme, but as a piece of music there's just a lot more to it.

Somewhat surprising though that Williams managed to produce such good love themes for these two movies. But then Goldsmith was famous for doing similar things all the time.

Of course, if I had to choose, I'd pick the Strauss piece over both themes. But then, that's one of my all-time favourites.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Across the Stars is far more straight forward then love theme from Superman

[Marian Schedenig 8,261]

How so?