How does JW compare to classical composers?

[artyjeffrey 20]

I was wondering about this one on the way to school today. You know, thinking about anything else but driving.

Mozart wrote for opera, which in the 20th century was supplanted by movies (generally speaking). JW writes for movies. Now, I'm not saying that he is equal with Mozart... but in the future, or hell even now, how do you personally feel his work stands in the company of classical composers of the past?

Sorry if this one's already been asked.

[Marcus 390]

I am confident that Williams in time will be (and rightfully!) ranked with the greats of the 20th and 21st century. He will be recognized as an important inspiration to the new generation of more traditionally inclined composers that emerged in the beginning of the 21st century, as a reaction to almost half a century under the tyranny of academic modernism.John Williams' music will continue to be performed in concert halls all over the world, and his film scores will largely eclipse the films for which they were written. His concert music will be subject to much greater interest, and when the true history of the last hundred years shall be written, Williams will be mentioned with the likes of Shostakovich, Ravel, Prokofiev, Britten, etc.

[nicholas 1]

I find this a fascinating topic.

My own view is that John Williams's association with "pop culture" (ie. Star Wars, Harry Potter etc., perhaps even film generally, up to a point) will always make him something of a peripheral figure when it comes to "serious music". He will always be seen as a film composer first, a composer of concert music second, whereas someone like Philip Glass, who actually seems to write more and more for film, has a long established canon of concert music, and so will be more highly regarded by the cultural "elite" (forgive my proliferation of inverted commas - I want to make it clear that all these notions are highly debatable and not my own).

Personally I feel that Williams' music, at its very best, can stand proudly beside anything written in the last century, or indeed in this - but he will always be considered a "populist", even a composer of "light music".

[ChuckM 1]

John Williams owns Mozart! I've never heard anything by Mozart that even comes close to the grandeur of JW's music.

[Quintus 5,399]

No.

Don't get me wrong, I personally prefer the music of Williams to that of Mozart, but lets not get silly here.

As for history, I think JW may be revered in american circles in perhaps a hundred years time, but certainly not worldwide. Which is a shame, but probably quite true.

[TownerFan 4,985]

I am confident that Williams in time will be (and rightfully!) ranked with the greats of the 20th and 21st century. He will be recognized as an important inspiration to the new generation of more traditionally inclined composers that emerged in the beginning of the 21st century, as a reaction to almost half a century under the tyranny of academic modernism.John Williams' music will continue to be performed in concert halls all over the world, and his film scores will largely eclipse the films for which they were written. His concert music will be subject to much greater interest, and when the true history of the last hundred years shall be written, Williams will be mentioned with the likes of Shostakovich, Ravel, Prokofiev, Britten, etc.

My thoughts exactly. I too strongly believe his music (both for film & concert hall) will be appreciated and revered more and more as the years go by.

[Marcus 390]

In response to Nicholas:

I don't know...

I can also imagine Philip Glass' stature diminish, as I think his real historic position over time will become evident as something smaller, more parenthetical, as indeed the entire 70's minimalist trend (I do think John Adams will be seen, and is indeed being seen, as something greater than the movement that spawned him, and perhaps his association with this trend will also seem less important).

I think John Williams is, purely from a musical point of vantage, much too brilliant a craftsman to lastingly be impaired by his popular success, or even by the medium he serves.

After all, Tschaikowsky (who of course is still somehow generally held in higher esteem in the U.S. than in Europe), was for a very long time dismissed as a light musical composer, not only because of the astounding success of "The Nutcracker", but also because his other output was considered (and at times justly so) schmaltzy and in poor taste.

Works like Williams' Horn Concerto, Bassoon Concerto or Violin Concerto should hopefully in time prove sufficient to "rectify" any taints and tarnishes caused by his association with Hollywood.

It greatly depends on the dynamics of the next few decades. I personally think that more tradition-oriented art will enjoy a rennaisance; we are tired of abstraction, we are tired of the even-temperedness of post-modernism, and we want something that whole-heartedly believes in itself, has clear values, and is shameless in its pursuit of beauty.

[Morn 8]

Does it really matter? He's already considered one of the greats of film music. And film music has a history stretching about 70 years. Williams is however already considered up there with the likes of Korngold and Herrmann.

[indy4 155]

John Williams is the best composer who ever walked this earth. For both film scores and classical. Period.

[Henry B 50]

John Williams is super cool!!

[ChuckM 1]

John Williams is the best composer who ever walked this earth. For both film scores and classical. Period.

[artyjeffrey 20]

In response to Nicholas:

I think John Williams is, purely from a musical point of vantage, much too brilliant a craftsman to lastingly be impaired by his popular success, or even by the medium he serves.

I wonder if, in the far future, Williams will be discussed in Music Literature classes. The class that I took went through the twentieth century without a single mention of him, even as a pop figure. When it came time for our semester presentations, I chose to demonstrate how film music was used, and made sure to utilize many clips from his work, along with Rozsa.

Someone else brought up Herrmann, and I'm surprised that he hasn't already been put in the books, with his innovation.

The only thing that might knock JW would be his association with Lucas and Spielberg, and that his most famous scores were a sort of return to the sound of Korngold (even though I like Star Wars better than anything Korngold ever did).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

My own view is that John Williams's association with "pop culture" (ie. Star Wars, Harry Potter etc., perhaps even film generally, up to a point) will always make him something of a peripheral figure when it comes to "serious music".

but he will always be considered a "populist", even a composer of "light music".

I'm pretty sure that in the long run, the musical legacy of Jerrald King Goldsmith will be more remembered and treasured, after Johnny's blockbuster tunes have already been long forgotten or considered obsolete.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well you would say that wouldn't you!

[Marcus 390]

My own view is that John Williams's association with "pop culture" (ie. Star Wars, Harry Potter etc., perhaps even film generally, up to a point) will always make him something of a peripheral figure when it comes to "serious music".

but he will always be considered a "populist", even a composer of "light music".

I'm pretty sure that in the long run, the musical legacy of Jerrald King Goldsmith will be more remembered and treasured, after Johnny's blockbuster tunes have already been long forgotten or considered obsolete.

Yes, Goldsmith will certainly be remembered too.

To suggest that his fame will ultimately eclipse that of Williams, is ridiculous, and Goldsmith would probably agree, but for sure, he was one of the few truly great composers in Hollywood, or anywhere else, for that matter. A GIANT.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As was said earlier, Williams was a populist, something that works against him in the elitist classical circles which you seem to graze in (with glee).

Goldsmith was always kinda in his shadow, making him an underdog, and more appealing...

[Marcus 390]

As was said earlier, Williams was a populist, something that works against him in the elitist classical circles which you seem to graze in (with glee).

Goldsmith was always kinda in his shadow, making him an underdog, and more appealing...

There's a difference between popular and populist, though.

Williams is much too serious a man to really aim for mere populism. But he does respond to the popularity of his music, with calm composure and great humility. Ever heard him boast about his own work? In fact, he is the first to downplay the significance of his contribution.

Goldsmith too embraced just about every chance he got to meet the public the way John Williams has been given the opportunity to do.

His music was simply never as popular.

Which is sad, I suppose. But it doesn't prevent our enjoying his music, and recognizing his genius.

(As do many "classical" concert composers I know too!)

[Red 75]

Williams has already earned immortality. At best he will be seen as the Mozart (or Beethoven) of our time, at worst he'll be known as a pop music hack of a composer. But either way, he will be remembered.

He is my favorite composer, by the way.

[artyjeffrey 20]

I can hear it now....

Fast forward to the future: "..And this is your evening's selection of classical pieces here on NPR. We just heard 'Dialogue of The Wind and The Sea' from La Mer by Claude Debussy. And now this next piece is 'The Asteroid Field' by John Williams..."

[SomeNewGuy 0]

Williams will likely settle in at about the Tchaikovsky level. Pretty damn good if you ask me.

[John Crichton 4]

Willams' legacy in the annals of film music is more than secure. The rest is up to whether the classical elitist cliques stop looking down their noses at film music. I'm not holding my breath, but I'm not really concerned about it either.

[Jeshopk 8]

I think film music in general will be seen as a higher art, especially as the movie theatre era diminishes more. Williams will be remembered as a more valid composer than he has been painted, but also I think Jerry Goldsmith, Carter Burwell, Howard Shore, and Danny Elfman will get their due as serious composers.

[Foxfan 128]

The first thing I told John Williams when I first met him in Boston four years ago was "It's such an honor to meet someone who will be remembered historically as another Beethoven!"

Keep in mind all the great composers (such as Tchaikovsky) were dismissed by the "elite" while they were still alive but grew in acceptance over time. Think about it: are there any orchestral works by other composers in the past 50 years that could be as representative of the period than Williams? I don't think so.

[Henry B 50]

The first thing I told John Williams when I first met him in Boston four years ago was "It's such an honor to meet someone who will be remembered historically as another Beethoven!"

You'd have to have quite an ego not to feel sick from that level of praise.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

John Williams is the best composer who ever walked this earth. For both film scores and classical. Period.

That's a bold statement.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I wonder what dear old humble JW was thinking...

[publicist 4,643]

The first thing I told John Williams when I first met him in Boston four years ago was "It's such an honor to meet someone who will be remembered historically as another Beethoven!"

I hope he laughed you off.

Williams never will be more than part of the 'one of the successful film composers of the dawning blockbuster era, John Williams, as Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, John Barry...... Listen here to samples of 'STAR WARS THEME/SUPERMAN THEME/HARRY POTTER THEME' enumerations.

His concert works have not nearly the stature to overpower his more opportunistic film works (most of the time they are not that noteworthy in the concert repertoire, either).

The big difference between a Bernard Herrmann (who is considered a musical genius now) and John Williams is, that Herrmann inspires musicians, Williams inspires film music and film buffs.

[rocnathan 0]

The only reason I can see why Williams is, or would not be, considered the genius that he is, is (as has been already mentioned) that minamlism and unfathomable chord progressions are considered quite the thing in the hypocrite circles otherwise known as informed (note that I'm trying to avoid quotation marks here =) ). Personally, I never saw what's so hot abouit Mozart, except that he took the musical laws/customs of the time to their limits and slightly beyond - which still makes it sound like elevator music. It's the equivalent of 80s guitarists turning their nose up at you if your solo isn't made up entirely of sweep arpeggios. :-P

Brahms called Bruckner a hack. Stravinsky was booed off the stage. Personally, I find the distinction between serious music and film music offensive. A good song is a good song is a good song. And for counterpoint alone, JW could wipe the floor with Mahler's ass. Plus his orchestra can do the job with a mere 120 players, it doesn't need 400. =)

If the aforementioned circles consider prokofiev and shostakovich greats and Williams not because his ratio of film music to concert works is greater, I will feel fully justified in hating everbody with small square glasses and a dark turtleneck sweater on sight. :-P

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Herrmann inspires musicians, Williams inspires film music and film buffs.

All the years I've wasted on him!

[Marcus 390]

The first thing I told John Williams when I first met him in Boston four years ago was "It's such an honor to meet someone who will be remembered historically as another Beethoven!"

I hope he laughed you off.

Williams never will be more than part of the 'one of the successful film composers of the dawning blockbuster era, John Williams, as Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, John Barry...... Listen here to samples of 'STAR WARS THEME/SUPERMAN THEME/HARRY POTTER THEME' enumerations.

His concert works have not nearly the stature to overpower his more opportunistic film works (most of the time they are not that noteworthy in the concert repertoire, either).

The big difference between a Bernard Herrmann (who is considered a musical genius now) and John Williams is, that Herrmann inspires musicians, Williams inspires film music and film buffs.

To claim that "Herrmann inspires musicians, Williams inspires film music and film buffs", is about as valid as saying "Beethoven inspires musicians, Mozart inspires opera and opera buffs".

John Williams probably enjoys just as much recognition from the classical world, if not more, than does Bernard Herrmann (at least that's my impression, being part of the "classical world").

Herrmann was a great composer, but I think it is fairly easy to see that Williams is a superior craftsman. But not nearly as quirky, which is why Herrmann has become a little bit more palatable to some.

Herrmann's concert works are much less frequently performed than those of Williams, and have largely (and perhaps unfairly) fallen into neglect, perhaps with the exception of his clarinet quintet.

Williams' concerti are being performed very frequently, for 20th/21st century repertoire. His horn, tuba and bassoon concertos are becoming standards for their respective instruments.

This is simply fact, and it is all the more astonishing considering how recently they were written.

[publicist 4,643]

Williams' concerti are being performed very frequently, for 20th/21st century repertoire. His horn, tuba and bassoon concertos are becoming standards for their respective instruments.

This is simply fact, and it is all the more astonishing considering how recently they were written.

Well, I have never seen evidence of this and i'm from Germany, where all things cultural certainly are held in high esteem.

I think you simply want to give empiric proof to an obvious false notion. What you brush aside as quirkiness on Hermann's part speaks volumes about your real agenda: lauding rather conservative western music as music that YOU would like to see accepted as the epitome of absolute music, since you obviously hate the modernist school.

Williams is simply not what you want him to be...the fact that popular mediums like film today have a zillion more weight than some concerto only adds to the fact that he will be remembered mostly for his prolificness as film composer of polished orchestral scores with a certain range, but far from being the end of all things, even in film music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I have to agree with publicist.

At this point in time John Williams is known almost completely for his film or festival work.

His concert works don't really live in the public consciousness......at all, and I do not think this will ever chanjge.

[Jeshopk 8]

Herrmann is sort of the safe choice for classical snobs. He has a distinct sound and made use of odd groupings. I don't think he's generally revered as a genius, but certainly moreso than Williams. It's all a matter of taste and the main reason Herrmann has more traction in those circles is that he's dead and stood apart from his peers by bringing different sounds out of the orchestra. However, I doubt Herrmann is played as much in concert halls, even if you exclude Williams' conducting perfomances. So take that for what it's worth.

[Marcus 390]

Williams' concerti are being performed very frequently, for 20th/21st century repertoire. His horn, tuba and bassoon concertos are becoming standards for their respective instruments.

This is simply fact, and it is all the more astonishing considering how recently they were written.

Well, I have never seen evidence of this and i'm from Germany, where all things cultural certainly are held in high esteem.

I think you simply want to give empiric proof to an obvious false notion. What you brush aside as quirkiness on Hermann's part speaks volumes about your real agenda: lauding rather conservative western music as music that YOU would like to see accepted as the epitome of absolute music, since you obviously hate the modernist school.

Williams is simply not what you want him to be...the fact that popular mediums like film today have a zillion more weight than some concerto only adds to the fact that he will be remembered mostly for his prolificness as film composer of polished orchestral scores with a certain range, but far from being the end of all things, even in film music.

Are you pulling national rank on me?

Seriously, I love Germany, and used to live in Berlin. But anyway, back to your post!

I believe that, as far as cultural politics, and the politics of concert programming, the top German orchestras and their respective artistic directors would have serious problems programming Williams' concert works, simply because the aesthetics in Germany, and in all serious German art institutions, have indeed been very anti-traditionalist, or at least anti-neotraditionalism for the past 60 years more or less.

The closest you can find to an exception, is maybe Wolfgang Rihm, but other than him (and perhaps Henze), it seems to me to be Lachenmann and the likes all the way.

Even great established concert composers like John Corigliano, Christopher Rouse, Richard Danielpour, etc., aren't getting many performances in Berlin or elsewhere in germany (except for some of the radio orchestras, which goes to show you that there's clearly still a certain amount of quasi-censorship going on. I am no anti-modernist, but I'm against the cultural agenda of academic modernism).

Williams' concerti are performed quite frequently, although more frequently still in the U.S, but I'm sure a quick look at a performance calendar of Williams' works will show very adequately that he is being played, and quite a lot for a contemporary composer (which might not be much compared to Haydn or Shostakovich, but still...)

Generally, American composers have a harder time getting performances in Europe, especially if they write in a more conservative style.

This is changing, however, albeit slowly.

Now to Herrmann:

By quirky (and please keep in mind that I'm a huge fan of Bernard Herrmann!), I mean that he is very, very technically limited, and tends to write very square, crude structures, their insistant motivic simplicity somehow working for them and not against them, which is itself remarakable and admirable.

But Herrmann was no modernist, and would have fiercely attacked anyone claiming him to be!

You would be hard pressed to find a more avowedly conservative composer in the mid 20th century than Bernard Herrmann!

Indeed his techniques and sympathies were even more "retrogardistic" than those of Williams, who has embraced a much, much wider variety of techniques.

I am speaking to you as a craftsman and a composer, and I argue solely from the point of view of musical craft, which is all I know.

And technically, Williams is lightyears beyond what Herrmann was capable of writing.

This is plainly obvious to any composer. (And I almost feel a little guilty saying that, considering how much I love Herrmann's music!)

[Henry B 50]

Williams is perfect.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

And technically, Williams is lightyears beyond what Herrmann was capable of writing.

I suppose if you're a robot, Williams is technically beyond what Herrmann was capable of writing.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I have to agree with publicist.

At this point in time John Williams is known almost completely for his film or festival work.

His concert works don't really live in the public consciousness......at all, and I do not think this will ever chanjge.

Same here. When people think John Williams they think Star Wars and Indiana Jones, a whole series of scores so commonly known and overheard that I can't even listen to any of them anymore. Seriously, I don't listen to either Star Wars or Indiana Jones for the simple reason that they are Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

[John Crichton 4]

When people think John Williams they think Star Wars and Indiana Jones, a whole series of scores so commonly known and overheard that I can't even listen to any of them anymore. Seriously, I don't listen to either Star Wars or Indiana Jones for the simple reason that they are Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

You do realize how much you're missing out? There's a reason those scores are so legendary.

[Delorean90 42]

Agreed. Forget about the package, go back and listen to something like "Desert Chase," and remember how fantastic this stuff really is.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The reason they're so legendary is because of John Williams incredible ability to compose amazing unforgettable themes. However, those unforgettable themes become so unforgettable it drives you insane.

The only tracks I'll occasionally listen to are Scherzo For Motorcycle And Orchestra and Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

[Delorean90 42]

That's why I said listen to something like "Desert Chase." It's not just the themes, man.

[indy4 155]

John Williams is the best composer who ever walked this earth. For both film scores and classical. Period.

That's a bold statement.

It's a true statement.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

John Williams is the best composer who ever walked this earth. For both film scores and classical. Period.

That's a bold statement.

It's a true statement.

As much as I love John Williams, I don't think he's the best composer ever. Although I will agree that he is the best film score composer ever.

[indy4 155]

I have to agree with publicist.At this point in time John Williams is known almost completely for his film or festival work.His concert works don't really live in the public consciousness......at all, and I do not think this will ever chanjge.

Same here. When people think John Williams they think Star Wars and Indiana Jones, a whole series of scores so commonly known and overheard that I can't even listen to any of them anymore. Seriously, I don't listen to either Star Wars or Indiana Jones for the simple reason that they are Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

You really should listen to them again. I would understand how you might not want to listen to the main themes, due to the public playing them over and over again, but still, there is some other great material in Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

One thing that really amazes me is how much the general public is actual aware of John Williams. A suprisingly large amount of people know his name, and some of his famous works. Normally, when asked who my favorite musical artist is , I say "the guy who wrote the music for Superman, Jaws, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, and more." A lot of the people say "You mean John Williams?"

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You really should listen to them again. I would understand how you might not want to listen to the main themes, due to the public playing them over and over again, but still, there is some other great material in Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

I know there is. They are some of the best scores ever composed, but I can't consciously find Indiana Jones on my iPod and listen to it.

[indy4 155]

John Williams is the best composer who ever walked this earth. For both film scores and classical. Period.

That's a bold statement.

It's a true statement.

As much as I love John Williams, I don't think he's the best composer ever. Although I will agree that he is the best film score composer ever.

I can't think of anyone better, at the moment.

You really should listen to them again. I would understand how you might not want to listen to the main themes, due to the public playing them over and over again, but still, there is some other great material in Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

I know there is. They are some of the best scores ever composed, but I can't consciously find Indiana Jones on my iPod and listen to it.

Okay, suite yourself.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I can't think of anyone better, at the moment.

Beethoven, Mozart...to name a couple.

[indy4 155]

I can't think of anyone better, at the moment.

Beethoven, Mozart...to name a couple.

Well, I don't share your opinion, but I respect it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

As I respect yours. At least we can agree on one thing, that Hans Zimmer isn't as bad as everyone here thinks he is