Anakin's Betrayal - a bit too unspectacular?

[Pelzter 0]

I love the Sith score. But I've always thought that Anakin's Betrayal seemed a bit underwhelming. It didn't move me on album.

First of all, I think the chord progressions are just to similar to other Williams pieces; like the choir piece when the kids return in Hook, or Shmi's Funeral from Clones. The specific, descending phrase I'm talking about occurs at 3:30-3:38, and has appeared in many other Williams pieces, including the two mentioned and the Theme to JFK as well.

Also, it has continually distracted me, that one of the primary thematic phrases of the piece (0:25-0:30) are lifted from David Arnold's Independence Day (El Toro Destroyed, 1:04-1:12).

Does this bother anyone else?

I think Anakin's Betrayal is a good piece, but it's just not awe-inspiring enough, neither for Williams' standard or for the drama, which it underscores.

[Luke Skywalker 1,815]

Also, it has continually distracted me, that one of the primary thematic phrases of the piece (0:25-0:30) are lifted from David Arnold's Independence Day (El Toro Destroyed, 1:04-1:12).

Does this bother anyone else?

Wow 5 seconds.

Williams is a rip-off

[Josh500 1,616]

I love it! It's perfect.

[Pelzter 0]

No, he's certainly not a rip-off, I just find it slightly tireing to hear the same chord progressions, however beautiful (used especially well in Clones), over and over again.The whole piece just seems a bit bland, and can't support the orchestral power it's given. As if his heart just wasn't in it, for that particular piece.The ID4 'lift' simply surprised me, because I've never come across another incident (with movie scores anyway), where Williams has taken a phrase from someone else and used it so centrally in his own piece.

[Luke Skywalker 1,815]

You seem to speak as if you have proof that Williams used that piece on purpose.

There are many similar passages in scores and not all are intentional to think this one is...

[BLUMENKOHL 1,071]

It's a clunky track. It tries too hard to be tragic, having neither the subtlety nor elegance of a similar piece in the Star Wars universe called "The Dark Side Beckons."

It is apocalyptic where it should be personal. And as such it comes across as cheesy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,269]

I agree.

[oierem 165]

It's a clunky track. It tries too hard to be tragic, having neither the subtlety nor elegance of a similar piece in the Star Wars universe called "The Dark Side Beckons."

It is apocalyptic where it should be personal. And as such it comes across as cheesy.

Why should be personal? The jedis are being killed by clones in multiple planets at the same time. It's not the Dark Side Beckons, when we have a father and a son fighting.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,071]

Why should be personal?

If you can't see why it should be personal, I can't explain it to you...nor can I convince you of it. You either see the metaphorical embodiment of the corruption of one man, or you don't.

[oierem 165]

I do see your point... but the actual images of the screen aren't personal at the moment. The music has to be personal and epic/tragic at the same time.

[indy4 155]

The only RotS cue that's better than Anakin's Betrayal is Anakin's Betrayal (Film Version), and possibly Battle of the Heroes.

[Pelzter 0]

It's a clunky track. It tries too hard to be tragic, having neither the subtlety nor elegance of a similar piece in the Star Wars universe called "The Dark Side Beckons."

Exactly. It does try too hard. "The Dark Side Beckons" NEVER fails to get to me. It's probably the most beautiful choir piece I have EVER heard, and certainly in any Star Wars film.

[Marcus 390]

No, he's certainly not a rip-off, I just find it slightly tireing to hear the same chord progressions, however beautiful (used especially well in Clones), over and over again.The whole piece just seems a bit bland, and can't support the orchestral power it's given. As if his heart just wasn't in it, for that particular piece.The ID4 'lift' simply surprised me, because I've never come across another incident (with movie scores anyway), where Williams has taken a phrase from someone else and used it so centrally in his own piece.

Do you honestly think Williams has borrowed something from Arnold? Oh, please...

Williams has most likely never seen ID4, and probably doesn't even know who David Arnold is. Malcolm Arnold, on the other hand...

Music is a language. We all utter similar sentences, and it's the overall style, clarity, syntax, poignancy, vocabulary and eloquence that matters.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I love the Sith score. But I've always thought that Anakin's Betrayal seemed a bit underwhelming. It didn't move me on album.First of all, I think the chord progressions are just to similar to other Williams pieces; like the choir piece when the kids return in Hook, or Shmi's Funeral from Clones. The specific, descending phrase I'm talking about occurs at 3:30-3:38, and has appeared in many other Williams pieces, including the two mentioned and the Theme to JFK as well. Also, it has continually distracted me, that one of the primary thematic phrases of the piece (0:25-0:30) are lifted from David Arnold's Independence Day (El Toro Destroyed, 1:04-1:12). Does this bother anyone else?I think Anakin's Betrayal is a good piece, but it's just not awe-inspiring enough, neither for Williams' standard or for the drama, which it underscores.

If its similarity you want, its probably more similar overall to a certain track on The Patriot...

I do see your point... but the actual images of the screen aren't personal at the moment. The music has to be personal and epic/tragic at the same time.

i agree with this fella

[Richard Penna 3,784]

I am personally convinced that the prequel scores were never going to be Williams' absolute best because of the material he was given.

Therefore, while I love RotS as a score, there are parts that sound a little 'clunky' or perhaps forced, although that may just be due to the highly questionable album selections.

[Miz 139]

The film version is better than the album version, but I can't blame Williams for either really. He scored what he was given very well - he could've written much more moving music were he not given a cartoony and weightless montage of poorly-representative Jedi dying for nothing. It was a sequence that belonged in something like Clone Wars. Trust George Lucas to render the tragic betrayal of the entire Jedi order by a monolithic military force an unemotional event.

[Luke Skywalker 1,815]

Why are all of you talking Film and Album version?

Its the same music not an alternate... Just edited....

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The album version is not the same length as the film version.

So they're different.

Duh.

[Luke Skywalker 1,815]

The album version is not the same length as the film version.

So they're different.

Duh.

??????????????????

But the music is the same, just cut out and what Williams intended is in the Movie...They just cut out a very important moment (Younglins scene). Possibly one of those edits to make worth a complete release...

Neither is this a re-ordering, like 'The Moon Rising' in AI (album vs film)...

[tpigeon 3]

Sure you could probably find similarities to other pieces. In fact, one could even argue that the descending motif is very similar to Hans Zimmer's Journey to the Line. But good music is not about coming up with a totally new arrangement of notes that's never been done before. The originality comes from new relationships between already familiar combinations and acknowledged conventions. Music is as much about notes as cinema is about plot.... which is not very much at all.

I think the theme is quite good. I love the first minute, when it hits a really tragico climax with the chorus; I remember actually feeling a great deal of emotion when I saw the film for the first time. It wasn't just because of the music, but the music really evoked the tragedy (in my eyes) of the personal and mass-scale tragedy. The mid-section, with the louder brass chords don't work for me as much, but when the music softens, i.e. right after Yoda decapitates the storm troopers, the score becomes to delicately bittersweet. The best part of the whole piece actually isn't even on the CD! But from there on out, starting with the images of the Jedi being gunned down in the Temple all the way until Bail Organa arrives at the Temple is classic Williams.

Ted

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The album version is not the same length as the film version.

So they're different.

Duh.

??????????????????

But the music is the same, just cut out and what Williams intended is in the Movie...They just cut out a very important moment (Younglins scene). Possibly one of those edits to make worth a complete release...

Neither is this a re-ordering, like 'The Moon Rising' in AI (album vs film)...

Film version = full version then.

Is this really that difficult?

[Henry B 50]

"Anakin's Betrayal" is just good, not great.

[Luke Skywalker 1,815]

The album version is not the same length as the film version.

So they're different.

Duh.

??????????????????

But the music is the same, just cut out and what Williams intended is in the Movie...They just cut out a very important moment (Younglins scene). Possibly one of those edits to make worth a complete release...

Neither is this a re-ordering, like 'The Moon Rising' in AI (album vs film)...

Film version = full version then.

Is this really that difficult?

No its not dificult at all.

I just dont see the point of diferenciating one cue from an edit (with deletion) of the same cue. Much less talk about quality, since both are the same friggin' piece and performance.

[MrScratch 294]

I like this cue a lot, probably my favorite from the whole score.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I just dont see the point of diferenciating one cue from an edit (with deletion) of the same cue. Much less talk about quality, since both are the same friggin' piece and performance.

The overal piece flows differently.

Would you not agree that listening to, say, the album edit or the film version of Rescuing Sarah makes a vast difference?

Same thing here.

[King Mark 3,632]

It's as good as epic Williams pieces get,and the 15 extra seconds in the film version some dumbass editor left out of the OST is one classic Williams moment.

k.M.

[tpigeon 3]

I think those 15 are certainly comparable to the criminally missing chimes section of the "Rescuring Sarah". But what really annoys me about the ROTS soundtrack is that nearly every track contains some of these inane edits. That's why I created my own soundtrack. Just a few additions of edited-out music as well adding "The Boys Continue" makes a world of difference.

Ted

[Jeshopk 8]

The scene (montage) itself is problematic, and perhaps for some it rubs off negatively on the music. The music seems to have done its best to provide a general mood and tie together the disparate visual elements.

Problems:

1) We jump from planet to planet and it is very disorienting. Most of these planets are none we've ever seen, so it's like you're taking in the environment more than anything. The cut to the huge colorful flowers is particularly disorienting becaue you have no idea what the hell you are looking at, and the characters are so small.

2) The CGI in these scenes particularly sucks - especially the CGI clone troopers who try to off Yoda. WTF is that!? One of them is like a crotchless hand-animated Ken doll. with a big space between his thighs. This is supposed to be a classic moment, so the last thing you want to see is some programmers idea of design - camoflauged armor. They didn't need that shit on Endor. When Yoda drops his cane, they do a close up on it bouncing and it looks straight outof Toy Story. They couldn't have dropped a real fuc&in cane??? Lazy bastards.

3) That blue, vapid, sexy twilek Jedi distracts your mind from tragedy. Seeing her ass jiggle as she falls does nothing for the drama. You're not crying for her, rather thinking how good she looks lying on her stomach from an aerial view. Yeah.

4) We are watching characters we barely care about die. Yes, this is supposed to be the end of the Jedi, but they should have focused more on the Jedi Temple...They show Anakin marching up the steps to some AOTC music, and then we only get to see a snippet of what goes down inside...

5) The Jedi Temple wideshot is disorienting and impersonal. Most of it is a chaotic, digital mess. So you finally see the temple go down, but then you can't even tell what the hell is going on, and the wide shot is so short that it almost seems like they tried to squeeze it in to make time for the huge flowers on some EU planet.

6) The camera is "sweeping" the whole damn time... I am done

The ONLY reason this montage works at all is because of Williams' music. The other things that can make it work at times is the general story - as well as a few tidbits like the jedi kids scene and the 3PO scene. The end part when Bail flies down to see the smoke is also fantastic. The whole thing just feels rushed and sudden, and it is over before it starts. They spend more time showing some Wookie acting like Eliot when ET blasts off.

[Luke Skywalker 1,815]

I just dont see the point of diferenciating one cue from an edit (with deletion) of the same cue. Much less talk about quality, since both are the same friggin' piece and performance.

The overal piece flows differently.

Would you not agree that listening to, say, the album edit or the film version of Rescuing Sarah makes a vast difference?

Same thing here.

Yeah if we are discussing the images-music connection. There is not 'film edit montage' for the OST cue.

[indy4 155]

I'd give that scene an A+, in film and score. The only problem I have with it is how after that female Jedi falls, and her body is blocked from view by that huge leaf, the clone troopers shoot....and shoot....and shoot....and shoot... I think she's already dead.

4) We are watching characters we barely care about die. Yes, this is supposed to be the end of the Jedi, but they should have focused more on the Jedi Temple...They show Anakin marching up the steps to some AOTC music, and then we only get to see a snippet of what goes down inside...

You want to see Anakin killing cute little toddlers? Sicko

[Ollie 1,069]

It's as good as epic Williams pieces get,and the 15 extra seconds in the film version some dumbass editor left out of the OST is one classic Williams moment.

k.M.

That dumbass editor was probably Williams.

[Jeshopk 8]

I'd give that scene an A+, in film and score. The only problem I have with it is how after that female Jedi falls, and her body is blocked from view by that huge leaf, the clone troopers shoot....and shoot....and shoot....and shoot... I think she's already dead.

4) We are watching characters we barely care about die. Yes, this is supposed to be the end of the Jedi, but they should have focused more on the Jedi Temple...They show Anakin marching up the steps to some AOTC music, and then we only get to see a snippet of what goes down inside...

You want to see Anakin killing cute little toddlers? Sicko

No I actually think that is perfect with the younglings. I mean it just rushes past the clones entering the temple with Anakin and never shows the Jedi surprised reactions, or Anakin slaying any adult Jedi. The Jedi seem to go down so easy and the Clones just shoot everyone in a very wide sweeping shot that doesn't even really register as the Temple until the end of the shot.

[Ollie 1,069]

I'm more disappointed with the decision to track music from "The Arena" into the scene where Anakin and the Clones march into the Jedi Temple.

Surely Williams could have written something much more ominous and darker.

[Jeshopk 8]

I'm more disappointed with the decision to track music from "The Arena" into the scene where Anakin and the Clones march into the Jedi Temple.

Surely Williams could have written something much more ominous and darker.

Yes, and so much of this film relied on the fans' attachment and knowledge of everything Star Wars, a fan was jostled out of the drama to hear familiar music in that scene. I think everyone remembered that at least from the AOTC DVD menus, and had it linked with the Arena. It fits for Harryhausen monsters, but definitely not for the scene it ended up in.

[indy4 155]

I'd give that scene an A+, in film and score. The only problem I have with it is how after that female Jedi falls, and her body is blocked from view by that huge leaf, the clone troopers shoot....and shoot....and shoot....and shoot... I think she's already dead.

4) We are watching characters we barely care about die. Yes, this is supposed to be the end of the Jedi, but they should have focused more on the Jedi Temple...They show Anakin marching up the steps to some AOTC music, and then we only get to see a snippet of what goes down inside...

You want to see Anakin killing cute little toddlers? Sicko

No I actually think that is perfect with the younglings. I mean it just rushes past the clones entering the temple with Anakin and never shows the Jedi surprised reactions, or Anakin slaying any adult Jedi. The Jedi seem to go down so easy and the Clones just shoot everyone in a very wide sweeping shot that doesn't even really register as the Temple until the end of the shot.

Oh, I see. I still love the scene, though.

Another flaw, which you mentioned above, is how

The Jedi seem to go down so easy

. I mean, I think it enhances the seen when you see the shocked face of Kaudi-Mundi (or however you spell his name), before he's shot, totally overwhelmed, but it would logically make more sense if he could hold them off longer, as he is a jedi knight. HOwever, like I said, I think this enhances the general look of the scene, even if it doesn't logically make sense (sort of like Nature's Reclamation theme playing w/ Rohan).

Totally unrelated to Anakin's Betrayal, I was just wondering: if Windu could have killed Palpatine if it weren't for Anakin, does that make him a stronger jedi than Yoda?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,785]

I found the Jedi rather disappointing in the prequels. They're spoken of as these feared galactic marshals with the great mysterious power of the Force backing them up, but they come across as rather easy prey and shitty fighters with only Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda and to a lesser extent Mace Windu being the only ones with certain strength, skill and endurance.

[indy4 155]

I agree, partially. One example is how Palpatine kills off, like, three of those jedis like that, Windu's saber being the only one that makes contact w/ Palpatine's more than once.