Is any one else confused about a theme in KOTCS?

[Valentinice 20]

I was happy to hear several quotes from the Last Crusade. But I was a little taken aback by the use of what I have always called "The Grail Knight" or "The Last Knight" theme as a "Father / Son" Theme.

In John Takis' original analysis of Last Crusade, he calls this "The Last Knight" theme. Yet in his new analysis of Crystal Skull, it's suddenly called the "Father Son theme" from Last Crusade?

WEBMASTER'S NOTE: John Takis is not the author of the 'Last Crusade' analysis.

Can anyone help make sense of this?

[Maestro 147]

I always understood this theme to represent the relationship between Indy and his dad.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well with the new movie, it seems to have become The Family Theme.

It is a reflective theme, never more so than in the new movie.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

We've been talking about this a lot in the last few pages of the official score thread.

[Ollie 1,059]

It's the grail/knight theme as far as I'm concerned.

Williams wrote a family theme for Henry and Indy that was hardly used.

[Quintus 5,399]

Probably because it wasn't as good as the Grail/Knight theme.

Hang on, so what do you call the brassy theme which plays as that place in Petra collapses? The Brotherhood Theme? Because that's what I call the Grail Theme.

Oh sod it!

[Valentinice 20]

Hang on, so what do you call the brassy theme which plays as that place in Petra collapses? The Brotherhood Theme? Because that's what I call the Grail Theme.

Oh sod it!

I think you're referring to the Grail Theme.

As noted above, John Takis did NOT write the Last Crusade Analysis. But still, I always assumed that the theme in question was the "Grail Knight" theme since it pops up in places when relating to the knight's clues or the tomb of sir richard. Oh well...

[MissPadmé 17]

I wasn't confused.. I never had suich thoughts to whom this theme belongs... I don't know to me it was pretty clear that this is Henry's Theme.. I never thought of something else

[John Crichton 4]

That threw me for a loop as well, I've always understood that theme to be for the grail knight(s). As Mark mentioned, there is a seperate relationship theme for Indy and his dad. Two actually. The silly one that's featured in Keeping Up With the Jonses, and the more mature one that takes over right after the tank chase ("I thought I'd lost you") and plays again at the end when Senior convinces Junior to "let it go".

[Valentinice 20]

That threw me for a loop as well, I've always understood that theme to be for the grail knight(s). As Mark mentioned, there is a seperate relationship theme for Indy and his dad. Two actually. The silly one that's featured in Keeping Up With the Jonses, and the more mature one that takes over right after the tank chase ("I thought I'd lost you") and plays again at the end when Senior convinces Junior to "let it go".

Exactly right. This is, in my mind, the true Father / Son theme. It also appears in the following places: When Donovan mentions Henry for the first time after showing Indy the inscription on the rock, When Indy and Marcus arrive at Henry's ransacked house, the above mentioned scenes after the tank chase and temple collapse, and when Indy uses the grail to heal his father. This last occurance has a cool, "twist" at the end for the reveal of Elsa. Clearly, given the scenes that it appears in - this is a (if not the) Father/ Son Theme.

On a similar note, if the "Grail Knight" theme is in fact the "Father Son Theme", why then does it play so prominently when Indy discovers the tomb of THE GRAIL KNIGHT under Venice, when Indy tells his Father in the castle about THE GRAIL KNIGHT, when Indy enters the sanctum of THE GRAIL KNIGHT, and after Indy and Henry witness THE GRAIL KNIGHT standing in the crumbling temple? Granted, Henry Jones is a part of some of these scenes, but it's more specific to the Grail Knight and the Grail Legend, in my opinion.

[Jacob 0]

As Mark mentioned, there is a seperate relationship theme for Indy and his dad. Two actually. The silly one that's featured in Keeping Up With the Jonses, and the more mature one that takes over right after the tank chase ("I thought I'd lost you") and plays again at the end when Senior convinces Junior to "let it go".

I figured those were the same, the second one being a slower variation.

[John Crichton 4]

They pretty much are, it's a thematic conversion after a big moment, like when Shmi's theme changes in the prequels after Anakin leaves.

[Jeshopk 8]

The grail theme was never used in the movie, the Henry Sr. theme was. Both times it accompanied his 'presence' in the film. Both times it was quoted was when Indy was talking about his dad.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

[Adam S. 0]

My interpretation is that JW thought of the theme as Henry's theme, has called it that in fact, but used in such a way that it was also related to the journey for enlightenment and that kind of thing which has an overlap with Henry anyway - so there's not as much of a contradiction as people are saying IMO. The secondary theme was needed for several scenes with Henry and Indy specifically where a different emotional effect was called for. The fact that he used it for KotCS would seem to confrim that JW intended the theme to be related to Henry. The prominence of the theme in Last Crusade for the pre-end credits and end credits is also a sign IMO that he intended the theme to be associated with a major character (Henry).

Plus, it happens with lots of his themes, maybe the vast majority, that the name attached to the theme only paritally explains its actual role in the movie so I don't see Henry's theme as much different in that regard.

- Adam

[Limbonaut 2]

I didn't expect to hear the theme for Indy's Dad from TLC that often in the new movie. It's on the soundtrack. Pretty sad to hear it when Indy looks at a picture of him and talks about him dying. Then you hear it again at the end when Indy says "Somewhere your grampa's laughing." which is kind of bittersweet.

[Josh500 1,615]

Hmmm, I don't think twice is often and no, it's not on the OS album.

But I thought it was nice, at least when it plays the first time (when they show Connery's picture). I'm still unsure whether the second time at the end was appropriate...

[Henry B 50]

The scene with Henry, Sr.'s photo was silly and melodramatic.

[Josh500 1,615]

The scene with Henry, Sr.'s photo was silly and melodramatic.

You call that silly?

There are some slightly more silly moments in the movie, I believe.

[Henry B 50]

There's "silly" and then there's "mind-blowingly foolish."

[Josh500 1,615]

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

[Wojo 2,453]

I think the Grail Theme and Henry Sr.'s theme are very similar for a reason. In The Last Crusade, hearing one theme often segued into the other. I truthfully couldn't tell the two apart until I sat and thought about it.

The themes are so similar because the Holy Grail was Henry Sr.'s hobby/obsession. As Indy makes progress on the Grail quest but thinks or talks about his father, such as one of those moments where you know Henry is with him in spirit or would be proud of him (like the Tomb of Sir Richard, even with the rats), Henry's Theme will be more prominent than the Grail Theme.

Take Ah, Rats!!! for example. At about one minute into it, the underscore stops and the ethereal strings start. At 1:47, a single statement of the Grail Theme is heard, a brassy religious-sounding theme that ascends and basically has nowhere to go...except into Henry's theme at 2:03. Henry's Theme is more reflective and often gets played more times in a row than the one or two times you hear the Grail Theme together. The Grail Theme starts at a note, rises a few intervals, and then basically just repeats itself, while Henry's Theme starts at about the same note, and drops down to be more pensive early on; its dramatic part comes later in the theme's progression. I don't really know why when Indy comes upon the Grail Knight, you hear Henry's Theme instead of the Grail Theme, except to say that it's to highlight that Henry deserves the credit, and that the Knight is finishing the "bed time story" about Grail Lore for Indy.

In KOTCS, the Grail Theme isn't used. Henry's Theme is heard when the photos of Marcus and Henry are on his desk, and then again at the end. In TLC, Henry's Theme grew out of obsession for the Grail, but came to also stand for the respect and love that is rediscovered between father and son, Henry Sr. and Henry Jr., as they share the Grail Quest. In that regard it's a Family Theme, and it's a parallel that Williams draws at the end of KOTCS, as Indy can now sit back and reflect on having a family of his own.

[indy4 155]

I've always considered Henry's theme to be the one playing at the beggining of "Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra." The one that plays in KotCS is the theme for the father and son. When Indy is looking at the picture of his dad, we have an obvious father/son connection there.

At the end of the film, when Indy and Mutt finally get on good terms, the theme for the father and son is played, rather appropriatley, IMO.

[John Takis 206]

All too frequently, it's hard to pin down Williams' precise intentions for a given theme -- even more so in a score like Last Crusade, where (as this thread has illustrated) he uses somewhere between 3-5 themes to explore various facets of the Father/Son dynamic! Anyway, there have been some valid points made in this discussion. With that in mind, I've retitled the theme in question "Illumination", as in the following revised excerpt:

Melancholic reprises of the “Illumination” theme from Last Crusade (associated with Henry Jones, Sr., and one of several themes Williams used to illustrate the father/son bond in that film) accompany Indy’s ruminations of his deceased father.

I feel this is an appropriate designation, since it recalls a specific instance in the film where the theme is heard (to help keep things clear for readers), and speaks to an essential element of Henry Sr.'s character (not to mention dovetailing nicely with the "knowledge as treasure" idea from KOTCS). I trust this will satisfy most people here?

[Incanus 5,714]

I think we are arguing about semantics here and trying desperately to find a logical solution to a problem that basically has to do with feeling. Thematically appropriate or inappropriate is hardly the question here but how does the music fit the scene emotionally. And it fits it very well.

TLC has more emotional relationship themes than any other Indiana Jones film as the focus of the film is spiritual enlightenment on many levels. Search for the Grail, the choice between good and evil, father and son finding each other and finding one's faith. KOtCS on the other hand has such break neck speed it does not stop for long periods of time to ponder such things and Williams did not write or had a chance to write any reflective theme for the film aside from the Crystal Skull theme's melodic line (B section) which would not have been very emotionally fitting for Indiana Jones' soliloquy at the end of the film.

So as a nice tip of the hat to the old films and also as a remembrance of Henry Jones Sr. Williams uses his Grail Knight theme for this scene and the other scene early in the film (this is the original idea behind the theme as even Spielberg himself refers to it by this name in the liner notes) which stands for the Grail Knights in the TLC.

Every time the theme is used it refers to the Knights even when it is used in the scenes where Henry Jones Sr. is present. First in the Tomb of Sir Richard (aka Ah Rats!), after that when Indy finds his father and tells him about his discovery and his father is overjoyed to hear about the inscription on Sir Richard's shield, and finally when we meet the last of the Grail Knights in the temple of the Grail. EDIT The theme's final appearance in the film is just as the Joneses are leaving the temple and ruminate on their experience and what Grail truly stands for. This scene links the Grail Knight theme to the two characters as they both have found an illumination of sorts in finding each other. Here the theme comes to depict their new found wisdom and their understanding of the meaning of the Grail. And finally this theme also forms part of the End Credits in the longest extrapolation it receives in the whole score.

As to what the theme stands for outside the narrow idea of the personae of the Grail Knights is more difficult to say for certain. Illumination, father and son self discovery and rediscovery of each other, father and son becoming Grail knights of sorts as they protected it from the forces of evil, Henry Jones Sr., search for and found wisdom? It could stand for all those things and for as many lofty ideas as we have mind to fish out of the film and attach to it. It all depends on the angle and what you are looking for.

We film music fans as we are terribly analytical tend to overcomplicate things. Sometimes a theme is a theme, an emotional representation of an abstract that is used to generate a specific emotion in a film. Sometimes the logic behind this usage might be a little off but the emotional intention remains.

[John Takis 206]

Ha! Thanks for the reminder, Incanus -- excellent points, all! I'd forgotten all about the mention in Last Crusade's liners. Duly noted, and revised. And yes ... this may seem overcomplicated ... but we do strive for accuracy, insofar as this is possible.

[Ollie 1,059]

Then again it could be as simple as Princess Leia's theme appearing in Ben's Death.

I believe Williams said he used it because it sounded good there or something similar.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Or it could be a theme with dual meaning, like how the Force theme also doubles up as Ben's theme

[steb74 53]

Then again it could be as simple as Princess Leia's theme appearing in Ben's Death.

I believe Williams said he used it because it sounded good there or something similar.

It was something like that yes.

There's an interview I read, perhaps on Miguel's site?? I'll have to check I can't remember.

Williams talked about a piece like that being used as an almost intuitive story telling decision apart from its obvious emotional impact.

I think for the story nothing is more appropriate than Leia's theme at that point.

I'm sure alot of composers would have started the cue with the force theme like Williams did but then continued with it.

For me that makes alot less sense than Williams using Leia's theme which at that point in the film had almost served Luke and Ben in a similar way the music in E.T. serves E.T. and Elliot.

In SW, most of the time we hear Leia's theme it seems to be used as a bridge for the relationship with Luke and Ben.

For Ben's death, I think at least if we look at it from Luke's perspective, it's that theme that has brought him and Ben to that point in the film, certainly more than the force theme.

[John Crichton 4]

Or it could be a theme with dual meaning, like how the Force theme also doubles up as Ben's theme

Well, if it didn't before it certainly does now.

[InfoDroid 0]

The Father/Son theme was always synonymous with the Grail to me, because obtaining the Grail is a metaphor for Indy's reconciliation with his father. In the end, it wasn't the relic itself that was important...they both realize, the quest was about them finding common ground. I was very pleasantly surprised to hear it in the new film (especially since it didn't appear on the CD). Not only to punctuate the invocations of Henry Sr., but also to underscore the newly formed father/son relationship of Mutt and Indy. I think Williams was 100% right to use it.

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

The Father/Son theme was always synonymous with the Grail to me, because obtaining the Grail is a metaphor for Indy's reconciliation with his father. In the end, it wasn't the relic itself that was important...they both realize, the quest was about them finding common ground. I was very pleasantly surprised to hear it in the new film (especially since it didn't appear on the CD). Not only to punctuate the invocations of Henry Sr., but also to underscore the newly formed father/son relationship of Mutt and Indy. I think Williams was 100% right to use it.

I think InfoDroid is on the right track here.

[Limbonaut 2]

Then again it could be as simple as Princess Leia's theme appearing in Ben's Death.

I believe Williams said he used it because it sounded good there or something similar.

In the Making of Star Wars book, there's a section where JW talks about the themes. He talks about originally he scored the binary sunset scene with the Star Wars theme but when Lucas saw it he suggested he use Ben's theme instead. JW said he used Leia's theme after Ben was killed because he wanted a romantic sound.

The thing I never got was the variation of Yoda's theme when Leia, Chewie, Lando etc are running from Stormtroopers on Cloud City in TESB!

I always associate the "Father and Son" theme from TLC with Henry Sr. not with the Grail(which already had a theme).

[Ollie 1,059]

I thought the reference to Yoda's theme was meant to underline not only Luke's bravery but the rest of the group's success in escaping from Cloud City.

There's the cue that was cut during the duel that played a snippet of Yoda's theme when Luke escaped from the carbon freeze pit.

[John Crichton 4]

I always thought it was meant to say that Yoda's prediction of disaster was coming true. The carbon freeze quote could have been about Luke successfully using his training.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I thought the reference to Yoda's theme was meant to underline not only Luke's bravery but the rest of the group's success in escaping from Cloud City.

There's the cue that was cut during the duel that played a snippet of Yoda's theme when Luke escaped from the carbon freeze pit.

I just thought he did it because he can....and it sounded cool.

[Henry B 50]

I think it was used primarily to lend a sense of newness to the score. Repetitions of Luke's theme and Leia's theme could have sounded stale. Hell, even the chord progression (I-II) has a new kind of feel.

[Limbonaut 2]

Okay, I reread the JW quote from The Making of Star Wars book and here's exactly what he said about using the "Princess Leia" theme for Ben's death:

I used part of the princess theme in the beginning of it, for two reasons: I took dramatic license because it was the most sweeping melody in the score, but I'm also playing it because it's what's inside of her and Luke during their reaction to his death.