Intrada's Sept. 23rd Release, Something Special?

[Morlock 11]

Dan Hobgood would have a Close Encounters/Not Without My Daughter debate, if one were offered.

[Quintus 5,399]

Dan who?

I'm glad I never feel tempted to delve deeper into the sordid online world of film score fandom. Sounds like a horrid place.

[Jim Ware 526]

Dan who?

I'm glad I never feel tempted to delve deeper into the sordid online world of film score fandom. Sounds like a horrid place.

That's probably for the best. The Hodgoob is more than a little biased.

[Morlock 11]

To his credit, he is good practice for arguing with a brick wall.

[Jim Ware 526]

To his credit, he is good practice for arguing with a brick wall.

THE OPINION OF THE HODGOOB IS TRUTH* - you will BOW DOWN to the HODGOOB!

*May not be true

[tjguitar 0]

Dan who?

I'm glad I never feel tempted to delve deeper into the sordid online world of film score fandom. Sounds like a horrid place.

FSM's resident Randian.

If you watch MrCropper on Youtube....that's basically Dan.

[John Crichton 4]

If you go to FSM be prepared to kneel at the alter of Goldsmith or else be burned as a heretic. And never, ever, ever mention a bootleg.

[David Coscina 3]

Williams is fantastic. Plain and simple. I would offer one of the few real genuis' the 20th century has seen. I'm not kidding. As far of musicianship is concerned, he's more advanced than most people will ever realize. Study his music and you will only be more awed by his technique and gift.

HOWEVER, this is a thread about Jerry Goldsmith (well, it turned into that based on the news of Intrada's release). So why the heck do people feel the need to invalidate him as a composer? You know, it's this reason why sometimes the members on this forum are mocked on other film score forums. Let's keep some objectivity here okay folks?

[Hitch 57]

If you go to FSM be prepared to kneel at the alter of Goldsmith or else be burned as a heretic. And never, ever, ever mention a bootleg.

I did once....and survived.

[John Crichton 4]

Well speaking for myself, I'm not trying to invalidate Goldsmith, I love him. I'm mocking FSM's forum.

If you go to FSM be prepared to kneel at the alter of Goldsmith or else be burned as a heretic. And never, ever, ever mention a bootleg.

I did once....and survived.

You must run fast. :cool:

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

BLASPHEMY! The opening is probably my favorite part of JW's score.

The Planet Krypton, The Fortress of Solitude and a few others are highlights in Williams' writings. The opening is still great, but it's also a bit blatant. I like it a lot, but I'm not mindlessly obsessed about it.

Supergirl I didn't really appreciate until I heard it live. And the OST performance doesn't quite do it justice.

[222max 1]

BLASPHEMY! The opening is probably my favorite part of JW's score.

The Planet Krypton, The Fortress of Solitude and a few others are highlights in Williams' writings. The opening is still great, but it's also a bit blatant. I like it a lot, but I'm not mindlessly obsessed about it.

Supergirl I didn't really appreciate until I heard it live. And the OST performance doesn't quite do it justice.

Superman still stands as one of the most Olympian acheivements of Maestro Williams. But what makes it so for me is really the first half of the score. The Krypton, Smallville and North Pole material is just sublime. But that follows as I consider those the best parts of the movie as well. I'm less a fan of the Metropolis and superhero parts of the movie and that goes for the music as well. All the poetry and grandeur of the earlier parts is gone in favor of straight-forward action and campy villainy. That's also reflected in the music. It's not that the later is not good music, it is. But in relation to the Krypton and Americana bits of the first half of the score things are far less interesting for me in the second half. Consequently I usually only listen to disk one of Superman. But Williams scored what he was given to the best of his abilities and the same goes for Goldsmith with Supergirl. Supergirl, the movie, is a piece of trash pure and simple and doesn't offer a 10th of the scoring opportunities that Superman offered Williams. It shouldn't be surprising at all that Supergirl is the lesser score. But that doesn't mean it's not good music. Parts of it are easily equal to what Williams wrote but the score overall is just a second rate take on a similar character. But we're comparing one of Williams' best with one of Goldsmith's lesser efforts.

The Boys from Brazil, written the same year as Superman and the very reason Goldsmith had to pass on Superman, is to me an equally great piece of scoring but in a completely different way. For those who were around at the time it was truly a gift to have both of these scores produced in the same year.

[Hlao-roo 389]

His arguments do nothing to convince me, It's more of what he thinks film scoring should be Sometimes it feels like he's jealous and bitter of Williams' success. Which is weird because he claims to actually like Williams.

Hobgood's quarrel is with Williams's general approach to film scoring, not his qualities as a composer. He is full of praise for Williams's excursions into monothematism (e.g., Presumed Innocent). Actually, were Hobgood less smug and less dogmatic, I suspect most film score fans (though not necessarily me or most of who post here) would agree with his basic premise -- that Goldsmith is a superior dramatist to Williams.

[publicist 4,643]

Hobgood's quarrel is with Williams's general approach to film scoring, not his qualities as a composer. He is full of praise for Williams's excursions into monothematism (e.g., Presumed Innocent). Actually, were Hobgood less smug and less dogmatic, I suspect most film score fans (though not necessarily me or most of who post here) would agree with his basic premise -- that Goldsmith is a superior dramatist to Williams.

Which is debatable, even if i think Goldsmith is a more INTERESTING musician than Williams.

Hobgood squawks all this rubbish about thematic coherency, where my first question would be:

What if a composer slavishly follows The Hobgood Way and works with weak basic material? (in relation to Goldsmith, most post-'Basic Instinct'-thriller scores fit that criteria beautifully). Or he uses gawd-awful electronics and makes the film look cheap? Certainly more of an esthetic question, but valid nevertheless...Is the score still better per se?

To balance this with a typical incoherent Williams-approach take 'Empire of the Sun'. A beautifully realized musical work, but dramatically, it creaks like a civil-war wheelchair. Most episodes (Shanghai Siege, Cadillac of the Skies, Pheasant Hunt) don't have any connection musically, whatsoever. There is the biblical choir for the weighty and uplifting scenes, dissonance for the tension and those elements never connect. The almighty Hobgood would've sent Williams back to his desk with a pile of 'Patton' cd's to report back when Jim's Theme would be a strain throughout the whole movie. But as it is, does Williams' score not enhance the movie?

After never bothering to post on the FSM board, i now have officially entered my disregard for this ignorant hokum into the ring!

[Ollie 1,059]

FSM isn't that bad of place as most some people here make it out to be. As with any board there are a few members who are irritating but for the most part the discussion is civil.

The "no discussion of bootlegs" nor selling and trading of bootlegs/promos/files rules makes sense since FSM is also a label. Lukas Kendall has explained that the studios frown upon such activity and it could damage FSM's chances of releasing scores.

Anyone that can't grasp that simple fact is an idiot.

While Jerry Goldsmith is held in high esteem there it's no more worse than what goes on here, in fact I think people here are more defensive about Williams than FSM is about Goldsmith. There's a lot of love for Williams at FSM as well.

John Morgan, William Stromberg, Bruce Kimmel, Michael Matessino and Nick Redman all drop in every once and awhile to post. And here are other members who work or have experience in the movie industry who also post.

Just don't argue with Hobgood it doesn't accomplish anything, besides he's not a daily poster over there.

[222max 1]

FSM isn't that bad of place as most some people here make it out to be. As with any board there are a few members who are irritating but for the most part the discussion is civil.

The "no discussion of bootlegs" nor selling and trading of bootlegs/promos/files rules makes sense since FSM is also a label. Lukas Kendall has explained that the studios frown upon such activity and it could damage FSM's chances of releasing scores.

Anyone that can't grasp that simple fact is an idiot.

While Jerry Goldsmith is held in high esteem there it's no more worse than what goes on here, in fact I think people here are more defensive about Williams than FSM is about Goldsmith. There's a lot of love for Williams at FSM as well.

John Morgan, William Stromberg, Bruce Kimmel, Michael Matessino and Nick Redman all drop in every once and awhile to post. And here are other members who work or have experience in the movie industry who also post.

Just don't argue with Hobgood it doesn't accomplish anything, besides he's not a daily poster over there.

I agree. There's tons of varied discussion at FSM and what I like about it is that there are enough differing viewpoints around to give it some objective balance. Dan Hobgood is the exception and not at all the typical poster at FSM. He is passionate about his views and I respect him for that but he does go overboard quite often. I've been frustrated when threads gets hijacked because he and Thor start one of their shoving matches.

But the level of discussion at FSM is quite informed and critical. And as mentioned above there are some heavy hitters who weigh in on occasion. I think Williams and Goldsmith are equally respected there. If there's one composer who regularly gets a bloody nose there it's probably Hans Zimmer.

[Hitch 57]

Well speaking for myself, I'm not trying to invalidate Goldsmith, I love him. I'm mocking FSM's forum.

If you go to FSM be prepared to kneel at the alter of Goldsmith or else be burned as a heretic. And never, ever, ever mention a bootleg.

I did once....and survived.

You must run fast.

Faster than you think

[Wojo 2,453]

Does Intrada release big top secret scores like this every month, or is it only every once in a while? I admit I hadn't bought anything from their website before this summer, when Baby was released.

[Morlock 11]

They don't do it every month...but they've been particularly prolific in high profile releases in the past couple of years.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Not every month, but still all the time. They're ruining us all.

[Ollie 1,059]

Intrada is releasing their stuff every two weeks, so the next date will be Oct 7th.

But not every release is a big one, they give clues about a week before the release and will usually give advanced warning if it is a "big" one.

[Wojo 2,453]

I consider ruining us with kindness a good thing.

[Ollie 1,059]

We are spoiled. When I read all the whining and complaining on all the message boards it makes me wish that people would actually sit down and look at their score collections and compare it to how it was 10-15 years ago.

There are so many wonderful scores being released and available now yet we always ask "what's next?" or complain that "------" (fill in the blank) score hasn't been released.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Wah! Wah! We want BTTF!!

[222max 1]

Does Intrada release big top secret scores like this every month, or is it only every once in a while? I admit I hadn't bought anything from their website before this summer, when Baby was released.

We are getting prized releases pretty fast and furious either from Intrada or FSM or the odd other labels. But it takes time to get these productions together... often months or even years. Plus the mine is getting rather thin because so many holy grail scores have already been dug up. But never underestimate these guys, they always seem to come out with something that we never expected. I know I was blown away a few months ago when they announced Bernstein's Heavy Metal. And now, could it be that we'll FINALLY get Temple of Doom as it was meant to be?

As long as these releases continue to sell-out we will keep getting treats like this.

[Wojo 2,453]

My god, that whining infant has a tattoo on his chest! It says iStockphoto! The nerve of some parents!

[Trent B 337]

We are spoiled. When I read all the whining and complaining on all the message boards it makes me wish that people would actually sit down and look at their score collections and compare it to how it was 10-15 years ago.

Indeed this is very true.

There are so many wonderful scores being released and available now yet we always ask "what's next?" or complain that "------" (fill in the blank) score hasn't been released.

There will always be those who will complain about a release because a "holy grail" of theirs hasn't been released yet.

[Hlao-roo 389]

We are spoiled. When I read all the whining and complaining on all the message boards it makes me wish that people would actually sit down and look at their score collections and compare it to how it was 10-15 years ago.

There are so many wonderful scores being released and available now yet we always ask "what's next?" or complain that "------" (fill in the blank) score hasn't been released.

Well, it's human nature. And collectors in particular are a restless and finicky bunch. I think it's fair for individuals to critique a release or lament the lack of one for a given score, even if they have a tendency to belabor the point. Repeatedly wagging the finger at those who do arguably constitutes a kind of whining in and of itself.

Having said that, I appreciate your point that we are in the midst of a Golden Age of releases of archival scores -- a perspective that may be lost on those who have only recently come of age as soundtrack collectors.

Wargames (Arthur B. Rubinstein)

[Richard Penna 3,689]

All very true. I currently have 2 holy grails (one of which hinges on a single cue not on a boot), which I would pay through the nose to get hold of. And it definitely is frustrating when something restricts what can be released, but I suppose that's the price we pay for being into such a niche area of music.

I'm sure all of us started out with just one CD, or a collection of tracks or something, and now I read about our collections collapsing bookshelves or filling entire hard drives (mine has gone from a single mp3 CD, to 80 CDs and 45GB of mp3s). It boggles the mind sometimes that we crave new material all the time, and then rediscover some old score in our collection like we're hearing it for the first time. That's happened a hell of a lot lately to me.

And yet most of our collections barely scratch the surface of what's already out there. If only it were more accessible and not locked away in vaults, but I think for the time being, money and the musical idiocy of executives won't make it easy to discover what's already been written.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well, it's human nature. And collectors in particular are a restless and finicky bunch. I think it's fair for individuals to critique a release or lament the lack of one for a given score, even if they have a tendency to belabor the point. Repeatedly wagging the finger at those who do arguably constitutes a kind of whining in and of itself.

Having said that, I appreciate your point that we are in the midst of a Golden Age of releases of archival scores -- a perspective that may be lost on those who have only recently come of age as soundtrack collectors.

Wargames (Arthur B. Rubinstein)

I don't mind criticsm but rarely is it the constructive kind when it comes to the special releases. It's someone griping about either the length, artwork, the fact it's not a big name score or it's not something they want.

Those do nothing to help or encourage conversation. I'd rather see talk about the music and what one doesn't like about it instead. For every release you don't like there is someone who's just had their dream come true. If I don't like it I just pass on it. To me it's a slap in the face to the label when someone goes on and on about length or makes the comment about the poor selection of releases.

They can't hit a homerun with every release and it's not as easy as 1,2,3 to get a release out there.

I think people should slow down and enjoy the moment because the more you look ahead the more you miss in the present.

Maybe it's just the parent in me coming out since I seem to have that conversation with my kids whenever they constantly want want want what's ahead and not enjoy what they have.

[Trent B 337]

I don't mind criticsm but rarely is it the constructive kind when it comes to the special releases. It's someone griping about either the length, artwork, the fact it's not a big name score or it's not something they want.

Those do nothing to help or encourage conversation. I'd rather see talk about the music and what one doesn't like about it instead. For every release you don't like there is someone who's just had their dream come true. If I don't like it I just pass on it. To me it's a slap in the face to the label when someone goes on and on about length or makes the comment about the poor selection of releases.

Agreed and with what you said there Thor comes to my mind first as someone who bitches about any release Intrada, FSM or Varese do.

They can't hit a homerun with every release and it's not as easy as 1,2,3 to get a release out there.

I think people should slow down and enjoy the moment because the more you look ahead the more you miss in the present.

Maybe it's just the parent in me coming out since I seem to have that conversation with my kids whenever they constantly want want want what's ahead and not enjoy what they have.

I agree with this. A lot of people don't understand how much legal crap Intrada, FSM and Varese have to go through in order to get these scores released to us.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

Indeed. Legalities are probably my most hated part of the whole film score business. But then they create all the excitement when someone manages to cut the red tape occasionally.

[Hlao-roo 389]

To me it's a slap in the face to the label when someone goes on and on about length or makes the comment about the poor selection of releases.

They can't hit a homerun with every release and it's not as easy as 1,2,3 to get a release out there.

A number of fans out there indeed appear willfully ignorant about the work that goes on behind the scenes to deliver soundtrack releases. But, again, it's indicative of human nature. I worked for a time behind the counter at a community pharmacy, and I was continually startled by the unrealistic expectations customers had with regard to attaining their prescriptions. The pharmacy staff, I'm afraid, are not miracle workers. If we've gotten a dozen customers ahead of you, it's quite unreasonable of you to expect us to fill your script in 5 minutes. Is your copay too high? No amount of yelling at us will accomplish anything; it's your responsibility to take it up with your insurance.

I think people should slow down and enjoy the moment because the more you look ahead the more you miss in the present

Wasn't that the message of Pixar's Cars? And no shortage of critics are there of that film.

[Ollie 1,059]

I enjoyed Cars.

Indeed. Legalities are probably my most hated part of the whole film score business. But then they create all the excitement when someone manages to cut the red tape occasionally.

And we're seeing some more of that tape being cut.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I'd be the first to acknowledge that Thor's rigid, self-important dogmatism is on par with Hobgood's, but I don't think your characterization of him is fair, Trent. Thor has accepted that a majority of folks generally disagree with his stance on the "complete and chronological" issue, and, to his credit, unless provoked, he no longer bothers to reiterate himself, beyond pointing folks to old threads (as is his wont).

[John Crichton 4]

I'd be the first to acknowledge that Thor's rigid, self-important dogmatism is on par with Hobgood's, but I don't think your characterization of him is fair, Trent. Thor has accepted that a majority of folks generally disagree with his stance on the "complete and chronological" issue, and, to his credit, unless provoked, he no longer bothers to reiterate himself, beyond pointing folks to old threads (as is his wont).

And a quick hello in our chronological thread, which gave me a little good-natured snigger.

[Ollie 1,059]

I'd be the first to acknowledge that Thor's rigid, self-important dogmatism is on par with Hobgood's, but I don't think your characterization of him is fair, Trent. Thor has accepted that a majority of folks generally disagree with his stance on the "complete and chronological" issue, and, to his credit, unless provoked, he no longer bothers to reiterate himself, beyond pointing folks to old threads (as is his wont).

And to be fair he has made more positive comments in his posts regarding these releases.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

I've heard about this anti-complete/chronological stance. I don't get it at all why someone would be against an expanded release, it's not like we're forced to buy them.

[Hitch 57]

My god, that whining infant has a tattoo on his chest! It says iStockphoto! The nerve of some parents!

Drax was always a demanding child

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Baby want a Deloreon!

[publicist 4,643]

I've heard about this anti-complete/chronological stance. I don't get it at all why someone would be against an expanded release, it's not like we're forced to buy them.

It's not entirely unreasonable, though. The more varied my tastes got over the years, i too had less and less patience for albums with 43 tracks, half of which come under 50 seconds. If you look at the recent Varése release of 'North and South', most tracks are like this. Now for rabid archival freaks, this may be a dream come true, i would rather lose a foot than obtain such silly things.

The problem with an edited cd, however, still is the fact that other people would pick the cues and they always f...ck it up.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well Itunes (and related programs) and CDRs have made it possible for people to program their preferred listening programs and I do agree there are a few albums that suffer from too much music.

But I would prefer to have all the music and as a listener I can skip what I don't like because there will probably be a cue you've wanted that will left off a shorter album.

[Trent B 337]

I've never understood Thor's stance against complete and chronological scores. To me complete and chronological is the best way to go for most scores. Grant some scores the OST is all that is needed but others like Star Wars, Star Trek, Back To The Future, Spider-Man, etc....need complete and chronological scores because they're that good and deserve it.

Edit: I mean seriously if Thor is so against complete and chronological scores why the hell is he into film score music to begin with? Most of us film score fans are in this hobby because we want the complete and chronological scores that will most likely get released one day.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Original album edits are okay if all the necessary material is present, but OSTs with irritatingly senseless micro-edits and re-shuffles in bizarro orders (I'm looking at you, John) just cry out for chronological complete releases.

[Trent B 337]

Original album edits are okay if all the necessary material is present, but OSTs with irritatingly senseless micro-edits and re-shuffles in bizarro orders (I'm looking at you, John) just cry out for chronological complete releases.

I agree with you 100% on this one.

[Joe Brausam 214]

I prefer complete and chronological scores if even just for the fact that it is the composer's complete intended work. Having an incomplete score is like leaving the scherzo out of a Haydn symphony - maybe not that dramatic - but it's just as bad! You want to have the complete work, regardless of not enjoying some parts or thinking it is too repetitive. Besides, with technology as it is today we could easily make our own preferred edits out of these complete releases if we felt the need to.

[John Crichton 4]

I prefer complete and chronological scores if even just for the fact that it is the composer's complete intended work. Having an incomplete score is like leaving the scherzo out of a Haydn symphony - maybe not that dramatic - but it's just as bad!

Exactly, the good scores are written to almost be their own story, with logical thematic and dramatic development. Messing with that is like putting in a DVD and just skipping around to random chapters.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

Indeed.

I also agree with Vosk's question - if Thor is so against expanded releases, then why is he into film music? Has he never watched a film and thought "damn, wish that had been on the album...", because complete releases are the answer to that. Or does he think CD producers should be able to read minds and determine exactly what we want released right from the word go?

I find longer releases with short track annoying sometimes too, but I'm dedicated enough to go through and make my own edits that incorporates the extra material that I personally want.

[Trent B 337]

Recently on FSM Thor even admitted that he spoke against the Home Alone 2 2-CD set but he has never bothered to listen to it because to him the original album is all that is needed. Now maybe that's a bad case to point out but still, there's been other times he's admitted this to other complete scores. It just boggles the mind with the stance that man has.

[Hlao-roo 389]

What's fantastic about recent expanded treatments (à la The Wind and the Lion, The Fury, The Dark Crystal, to name a few, although the last one unfortunately contains film edits on the chronological disc) is that you don't have to settle for either/or. Just to dream, I'd love to have an E.T. album that features the complete score (with final takes + remaining unreleased cues) packaged with the original MCA release.