Composing - How To Create A Good Theme

[ChuckM 1]

I enjoy dabbling with composing every now and then (although on an extremely amateurish level), and I have found that by far the hardest part is creating the actual theme. Something memorable that people will continue humming after hearing the piece, and something that fits correctly as well.

The orchestrations and arrangements are not too difficult to just figure out how to do, but actually coming up with that initial melody can be infuriating.

I was wondering if some of the better composers here would have any suggestions for creating good themes?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Derivatives and hybridization.

Derive from what you know, hybridize it with other ideas, and you have yourself a melody.

Memorability is the result of usage of the melody, not in the melody itself.

[Richard Penna 3,758]

I would translate that as nicking someone else's melody and changing a few notes. Or does 'what you know' have a different meaning?

[Maxxie 1]

I would translate that as nicking someone else's melody and changing a few notes.

That sounds like Hans Zimmer. Except he pinches his own themes!

[Jacob 0]

I think it was Picasso that supposedly said "Good artists copy. Great artists steal."

Not that that helps any...

[MSM 126]

I enjoy dabbling with composing every now and then (although on an extremely amateurish level), and I have found that by far the hardest part is creating the actual theme. Something memorable that people will continue humming after hearing the piece, and something that fits correctly as well.

The orchestrations and arrangements are not too difficult to just figure out how to do, but actually coming up with that initial melody can be infuriating.

I was wondering if some of the better composers here would have any suggestions for creating good themes?

Orchestrations and arrangements "not too difficult to just figure out"?

To me, orchestration is the most important aspect of a composition. A theme can be bland or stupid, if the orchestrations are nice, it can be a great composition.

I personally think creating the theme is the easiest part. Development, form and structure are the most difficult aspects.

[Wojo 2,453]

It's very reassuring that two individuals here who like to compose have such different opinions on how to write melodies and how to orchestrate. It's called style, and as both a listener and a performer of good music, I love originality and dabbling in different styles.

[Henry B 50]

A theme can be bland or stupid, if the orchestrations are nice, it can be a great composition.

Nah.

[Richard Penna 3,758]

Yah.

[Red 75]

A theme can be bland or stupid, if the orchestrations are nice, it can be a great composition.

Any examples?

Rabbit--wondering if this is anything that can even be taught.

[Goldsmithfan 6]

I think it was Picasso that supposedly said "Good artists copy. Great artists steal."

If that were true then how did art come to be in the first place?

[MSM 126]

A theme can be bland or stupid, if the orchestrations are nice, it can be a great composition.

Any examples?

Rabbit--wondering if this is anything that can even be taught.

It can be taught, but in orchestration you need a lot of gut-feeling.

[Morn 8]

I think it was Picasso that supposedly said "Good artists copy. Great artists steal."

Funny I thought it was Stravinsky who said that. Well one of them must have stolen the quote.

Derive from what you know, hybridize it with other ideas, and you have yourself a melody.

Williams seems to do it this way often.

I'd say you need to start the melody with a very noticeable and strong hook. Like the superman theme for example, it has 3 note hook at the beginning, and the rest of the theme relies on just sounding slightly different to the hook, by rhythm or sliding through notes.

Well this is the advice I got last time I asked a composer.

[ChuckM 1]

I'd say you need to start the melody with a very noticeable and strong hook. Like the superman theme for example, it has 3 note hook at the beginning, and the rest of the theme relies on just sounding slightly different to the hook, by rhythm or sliding through notes.

Ah, now that makes sense. I'll have to try that next time.

-Chuck, who just finished whistling all the way through the superman theme and see's exactly what Morn means now.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.

Oh, and the "Good artists copy. Great artists steal." was basically Picasso copying T.S. Eliot's quote "Immature poets imitate. Mature poets steal."

[indy4 155]

I hate copy cats. With a passion.

I don't care what Picasso says, if you purposefully plagarise from others...

Though I do like how Picasso was stealing Elliot's quote about stealing.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

I'd like you to sit down and come up with a thought that is not in one way shape or form derived from something else or the synthesis of two different ideas.

If you can, I will stop laughing in your face.

If that were true then how did art come to be in the first place?

10,000+ years of artists deriving and synthesizing from/with/upon each others works. Chiaroscuro didn't just pop out of thin air.

[indy4 155]

Complete originality is one thing--I'm talking about total cut and paste jobs.

People who "steal" rather than "copy."

[Koray Savas 2,251]

There is little difference between copying in stealing. Stealing, in terms of let's say writing, is just copying and pasting word for word. Copying is taking the original writer's idea, plot, characters, whatever, and just changing it a little bit so it's not exactly the same. It's impossible to come up with something original these days, because everything has been done before. All one needs to do is to find a way to take someone else's work and make it their own. Why else do you think there are endless remakes being made in Hollywood?

[Williamsfan301 11]

We're starting to write simple melodies in the theory class I teach. The book goes on and on about what a good melody is and what a bad melody is. We concluded in the class that, according to the book, Beethoven's Hymn to Joy theme sucks!

Just remember two things: 1) All melody is nothing more than a function of harmony

2) Make a statement, don't ask a question

Otherwise, you'll be fine!

[Joe Brausam 216]

A theme can be bland or stupid, if the orchestrations are nice, it can be a great composition.

Any examples?

Rabbit--wondering if this is anything that can even be taught.

Listen to a Haydn symphony.

[Desplat13 1]

I just dug up some notes I jotted down while reading through a book on music which might be helpful. Basically what Morn said, but in more detail. I think I remember that at the time that I read this, I tested it by creating a simple motive, and then systematically going through and using each technique in order. While the result was by no means perfect or great, it worked together surprisingly well. Hope this helps.

Oh, and a question for Williamsfan301: Why can't a melody ask a question?

Motive Variations

Literal Repetition: Repeated Motive

Sequence: Rising Sequence: Motive repeated higher

Falling Sequence: Motive repeated lower

Interval Change: Change of one or more intervals in a motive

Fragmentation: Only fragment(s) of motive repeated

Extension: Lengthening a motive at the end

Inversion: Motive turned upside down

Rhythm Change: Change of certain notes value, while motive length remains the same

Ornamentation: Decorating certain notes with ornaments

Augmentation: Slowing the time value of a motive

Dimination: Speeding up the time values of a motive

Interversion: Repeating fragments of a motive in a different order

Expansion: lengthening a motive by adding new material in the middle

Coatration (or something; can't read my handwriting here ): Shortening motive by deleting fragment(s) in middle

Thinning: Deleting certain motes of a motive, while the length remains the same

Retrograde Motion: Writing a motive in reverse order

[pixie_twinkle 48]

A theme can be bland or stupid, if the orchestrations are nice, it can be a great composition.

Any examples?

Rabbit--wondering if this is anything that can even be taught.

It can be taught, but in orchestration you need a lot of gut-feeling.

I would argue the exact opposite. Study hard enough and you can learn how to orchestrate music. You need to learn a LOT of scores, and learn them well. BUT you can never sit down and compose a great melody off the bat. Great melodies are found, not created. I've been composing now for over 20 years, and I'm only now beginning to realise the full meaning of this. You can wait for days, months even before a decent melody comes to you. There really is no formula for creating it. One can easily analyze the melody once found, and break it down into triads and scales and motifs. BUT, you cannot always then reverse the process and use the same criteria to create a second great melody based on the structure of the first. However, any decent composer learns how to listen to a great melody, once found, and use his skill to orchestrate it according to its own design. That takes years of training (self training or scholastic) and experience. Orchestration is fun, provided you have enough experience. It shouldn't be too hard either. If you are struggling with the orchestration you probably need to understand your melody a little better.

[Desplat13 1]

I agree that melodies can't just be worked into existence, but, for me at least, they usually require coaxing in order to come out. My favorite melody I have ever written came this way: Through a little inspiration, and then working it into what I wanted. It is the piece called "The Story" in the myspace link in my signature, if anyone wants to see how it worked out for me.

[MSM 126]

A theme can be bland or stupid, if the orchestrations are nice, it can be a great composition.

Any examples?

Rabbit--wondering if this is anything that can even be taught.

It can be taught, but in orchestration you need a lot of gut-feeling.

I would argue the exact opposite. Study hard enough and you can learn how to orchestrate music. You need to learn a LOT of scores, and learn them well. BUT you can never sit down and compose a great melody off the bat. Great melodies are found, not created. I've been composing now for over 20 years, and I'm only now beginning to realise the full meaning of this. You can wait for days, months even before a decent melody comes to you. There really is no formula for creating it. One can easily analyze the melody once found, and break it down into triads and scales and motifs. BUT, you cannot always then reverse the process and use the same criteria to create a second great melody based on the structure of the first. However, any decent composer learns how to listen to a great melody, once found, and use his skill to orchestrate it according to its own design. That takes years of training (self training or scholastic) and experience. Orchestration is fun, provided you have enough experience. It shouldn't be too hard either. If you are struggling with the orchestration you probably need to understand your melody a little better.

For me it works differently. It's an alternative process of forced creation and inspiration. When I have an idea, and I write it down, the rest I make up as I go, then often change some notes here and there, add measures etc. If I have no inspiration at all, in this way I can create proper melodies any time.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

My two cents about stealing and copying: when you have a melody in your head, write it down and don't care where or why it resembles another work. Once you try to not sound like something else, the idea loses its heart.

[Williamsfan301 11]

Thing you have to remember about Haydn, he was on a production schedule and instrument technology had only gone so far. Brass instruments only gave your the overtone series, unless you had a really good high chop player. Also, there were "conventions of good taste" that Haydn had to deal with as well. The man did write 104 Symphonies after all.

Haydn is a good example, though, of motivic development AND use of folk songs. Nothing wrong with that!

It's funny how back in Haydn's time, using another composers theme and writing variations on it was actually considered a compliment. Do it NOW, and hello lawsuit!

[Joe Brausam 216]

I love Bartok's use of folk music in his pieces. I think it may just be the Hungarian melodies though, there's just something about them that jump out at me.

It's funny about Haydn and other "employed" composers though, he worked under much the same pressures as modern film composers do.

[Jeshopk 8]

Write down your first instinct. Work with it if it isn't right.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I found that the best way to create a memorable theme is to avoid using tose smaller, black keys on the keyboard.

[Desplat13 1]

I love Bartok's use of folk music in his pieces. I think it may just be the Hungarian melodies though, there's just something about them that jump out at me.

Yes, I love the Hungarian melodies, too. I love Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sounds good, what films did he score?

[Desplat13 1]

His music was good enough to stand on its own.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Write down your first instinct. Work with it if it isn't right.

But if you're still struggling after a couple of days probably best to set it aside and start over. I've wasted days trying to make an idea work, and then started again and got it right first time.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Finally getting an idea right, just how you imagined it, can have orgasmic proportions.

[Williamsfan301 11]

giggity

@ Hitch

[skyy38 21]

A theme can be bland or stupid, if the orchestrations are nice, it can be a great composition.

Any examples?

Rabbit--wondering if this is anything that can even be taught.

It can be taught, but in orchestration you need a lot of gut-feeling.

The technical side of music can be taught. The creative side is something that evolves with your increasing knowledge of music.

But,too, Dave Brubeck could never read a stitch of music but look what happened with him!

As a composer, I find that coming up with themes is a combination of a few different variables,but mostly,the really GOOD themes(at least to my ears) are hard to come by. John Williams admits as much in the liner notes for "The Empire Strikes Backs".

But,without writing a book here, themes,IMHO, are dependent on two things: Mood and orchestration.

Choose your mood-happy, triumphant, playful, sad, melancholy, brutal, indifferent, wise, stupid, statetly , whatever.

Write with an ear towards supporting your mood but don't introduce any forensics into it. In other words, don't say to yourself, "I am going to put a CM 7 sus4 chord here". If such a chord is called for in your theme, it will make itself apparent later on but don't "shoehorn" it in. You are not serving the theory,the theory is serving YOU. Keep your mood in mind and shape your music to fit that reality.

Don't think orchestration,at least not too heavily. If you have some initial ideas for orchestration,jot them down then get back to your writing.

I'll write down something like "flute,timpani, piano, polysynth" and then get back to the theme.

Pick ONE particular sound that you are partial to,to write with. I prefer a nice string patch myself because,for years, I had nothing but a piano and,unless I'm feeling differently, I always go for my favorite string patch. I don't go to orchestration,until I feel I've written at least enough music at that point to justify it.Otherwise,I stick to the patch and keep writing.

Now that the "hard" part is over, I can start building this theme up and THIS is actually the fun part!!! I have built my "house" or theme and now I get to "furnish" it with orchestration. Only 10% of the time,for me, has this ever been difficult but for the most part, no sweat! I always keep a majority of my favorite music, to refer to, on hand if it's "one of those days". For example, I was having trouble with the "B" part of a James Dean theme that I was writing, so, I listened to the "B" part of the main titles from "Battlestar:Galactica" and took my cue from Stu Phillips, not only for the orchestration,but for the mixing as well. But it still comes out sounding like me because I don't even touch the bass or melody-I was just after the "intent".

Keep in mind too,that a lot of stuff that you can come up with can occur when you are away from your instrument. I've come up with melodies while walking the dog or splitting wood. And on rare occasion,I've literally had something just implant itself into my brain just because I was meditating on the subject matter on which it was based. That's how I got the priviledge of writing my James Dean Theme. Not only did it just whoosh into my head,it was in the style of Dimitri Tiomkin ( who scored "Giant") AND it was sounding like it had been recorded with the technology of the '50's! ALL IN MY HEAD!

(Yeah,sounds weird,I know, but that's me)

I darn near broke a few traffic laws getting home so I could write it down before it disappeared forever. But the genesis of this theme was not me writing,it was a gift and you always respect the gift.

Otherwise,the gift gets taken away......

Just my 2 Cu 29!

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

to create a good theme you need to be born in Feb 8 1932.

[skyy38 21]

to create a good theme you need to be born in Feb 8 1932.

One thing that I do share with my favorite composer-the same month of birth!

[Jeshopk 8]

Write down your first instinct. Work with it if it isn't right.

But if you're still struggling after a couple of days probably best to set it aside and start over. I've wasted days trying to make an idea work, and then started again and got it right first time.

Yeah, and sometimes it's just a mindf*ck when you think it isn't right. JW and JG both told stories of going back to their first idea they thought wasn't good enough and finally it seemed just right. CE3K and Medicine Man would be examples.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

[Quintus 5,399]

Another reference to British culture from Steef.

Just face it - you wish you were British! Nowt wrong with that lad.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Steef, Quint and I have gone to war with the majority of the forum on the issue of the David Lowe BBC music already.

[Quintus 5,399]

Indeed we have, effectively so as I remember it

I also haven't forgotten that Steef was a backer of the theme then either.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That thread went a bit pearshaped.

[Quintus 5,399]

Did it? Dig it up if you can be arsed. I'd read it again anyway.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I can't be arsed....

[Quintus 5,399]

Fair do's...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Pillock!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Rubbish!