So, what JW scores are not 5 stars, are not masterpieces, they all cannot be?

[Diego 21]

And bashing Home Alone 2... isn't that just like bashing Home Alone (plus a few more themes)?

That's a big part of the problem- it's a Williams sequel score that brings nothing new to the table.

I think sometime we forget that Williams writes for a film and not for our CD collections, what new thing did Home Alone 2 the movie bring to the table exactly??

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Home Alone 2 is better than Home Alone precisely because it's the same thing plus new themes.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well Williams appeared to have more say in the second film as it wasn't filled with a bunch of songs like the first film was.

[Josh500 1,615]

Home Alone 2 is better than Home Alone precisely because it's the same thing plus new themes.

Well, technically yes. It's more music.

However, I think Home Alone has better scored scenes... take for example "Setting the Trap." It's much better in Home Alone than HA2, what with the tarantula being one of the sync points and so on.

But really, HA 1+2 are really well-scored, music well written and mixed.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Home Alone 2 is better than Home Alone precisely because it's the same thing plus new themes.

Home Alone 2: Lost in New York might be the better buy if you're on a budget and not a completist, but I really do prefer the first score as an artistic achievement.

[Henry B 50]

I apologize for intruding in your argument, but is it really necessary to name a single name? Henry used "television jingle composers" as a large part of his argument, all one would have to do to understand his points is to turn on the television and not press the "Mute" button when the commercials breaks occur.

No, my neighbor is more versatile than all of Henry's jingle composers.

In fact, my neighbor is twice as talented as John Williams.

I won't say who he is, but trust me.

Unbelievable. I could tell you that the sun shines down on the earth and you'd ask me for photograph evidence. Then, when I provided it, you wouldn't believe it, saying that the lens flare obscured it too much. My intention was never to name specific composers who are better than Williams. I don't know how clear I can make that. I'm just saying that Williams has such a developed, recognizable style that it sometimes drags his scores into a realm of predictability, or conjures associations in the minds of listeners ("I'm watching a serious drama, why does this music sound like Star Wars..." etc.). Goldsmith (before the late eighties) tended to have a more nebulous style that was hard to pin down. He wrote more diversely. On a musical scale, I generally prefer Williams. There's nothing wrong with having a style as a composer. All the greats did. Film scoring, however, isn't just about music.

Home Alone 2 is better than Home Alone precisely because it's the same thing plus new themes.

Home Alone 2: Lost in New York might be the better buy if you're on a budget and not a completist, but I really do prefer the first score as an artistic achievement.

It's a much more succinct listen, and there are a few nice bits that didn't make it into Home Alone 2. But if you go with Koray's elementary logic class approach to listening, then what does album experience matter? As long as the music's there, it doesn't matter how it's structured.

[Delorean90 42]

Home Alone 2 is better than Home Alone precisely because it's the same thing plus new themes.

Home Alone 2: Lost in New York might be the better buy if you're on a budget and not a completist, but I really do prefer the first score as an artistic achievement.

I can see that, although I think I may prefer Williams's development of the "Kevin getting chased" music better in HA2. I think if you're a fan of either score, though, you should have the other as well. The new carols alone justify the HA2 score, IMO--and then on top of that there's a bunch of new material ("Arrival in New York," for instance). I love 'em both.

[Josh500 1,615]

I apologize for intruding in your argument, but is it really necessary to name a single name? Henry used "television jingle composers" as a large part of his argument, all one would have to do to understand his points is to turn on the television and not press the "Mute" button when the commercials breaks occur.

No, my neighbor is more versatile than all of Henry's jingle composers.

In fact, my neighbor is twice as talented as John Williams.

I won't say who he is, but trust me.

Unbelievable. I could tell you that the sun shines down on the earth and you'd ask me for photograph evidence. Then, when I provided it, you wouldn't believe it, saying that the lens flare obscured it too much. My intention was never to name specific composers who are better than Williams. I don't know how clear I can make that. I'm just saying that Williams has such a developed, recognizable style that it sometimes drags his scores into a realm of predictability, or conjures associations in the minds of listeners ("I'm watching a serious drama, why does this music sound like Star Wars..." etc.). Goldsmith (before the late eighties) tended to have a more nebulous style that was hard to pin down. He wrote more diversely. On a musical scale, I generally prefer Williams. There's nothing wrong with having a style as a composer. All the greats did. Film scoring, however, isn't just about music.

Hahaha, good one, Henry. Don't kid yourself.

No. We were talking about versatility. I said JW was one of the most versatile composers, if not THE most versatile. Then you said, no there's Goldsmith and many more. I acknowledged that JG might have been as versatile as JW, but certainly not more so. And then I asked you to name a few names, since you claimed there were many more. And you pulled out the "TV jingle composers."

There was never a question of who's better or whether you considered JW versatile or whatever. We all know JW is versatile. The question was, who is more versatile? According to me, no one. According to you, many more.

[Henry B 50]

No. We were talking about versatility. I said JW was one of the most versatile composers, if not THE most versatile. Then you said, no there's Goldsmith and many more. I acknowledged that JG might have been as versatile as JW, but certainly not more so. And then I asked you to name a few names, since you claimed there were many more. And you pulled out the "TV jingle composers."

How about John Debney? Tonal, for sure, but he pretty much blends into whatever style is asked of him. The results tend to be uninteresting. Christopher Young, maybe. Andre Previn, who was very much a behind the scenes guy (allegedly, some of Williams' early scores were actually composed by Previn). William Ross? He slipped into the Williams style completely for Chamber of Secrets.

Now, by comparison, I think (and this is by no means a bad thing) that Williams makes most everything he does distinctly his. Good-bye, Mr. Chips? He didn't write the songs, but the orchestrations and score cues bear his mark. That arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner? Couldn't have been done by anybody else.

[Josh500 1,615]

How about John Debney? Tonal, for sure, but he pretty much blends into whatever style is asked of him. The results tend to be uninteresting. Christopher Young, maybe. Andre Previn, who was very much a behind the scenes guy (allegedly, some of Williams' early scores were actually composed by Previn). William Ross? He slipped into the Williams style completely for Chamber of Secrets.

Now, by comparison, I think (and this is by no means a bad thing) that Williams makes most everything he does distinctly his. Good-bye, Mr. Chips? He didn't write the songs, but the orchestrations and score cues bear his mark. That arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner? Couldn't have been done by anybody else.

Thank the Lord, finally a few names!

So you really believe John Debney, Christopher Young, Andre Previn, and William Ross are more versatile (not better, mind, but versatile) than JW? And all that based on the single argument that their music bears a less strong "mark" than JW's music? That they don't make their music as much their own as JW does?

OK. If that's what you really think... I won't argue with you.

But let me just say, if you didn't know better (not just you, but all of us), no one would believe Schindler's List and Star Wars and Home Alone were written by the same man!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

But let me just say, if you didn't know better (not just you, but all of us), no one would believe Schindler's List and Star Wars and Home Alone were written by the same man!

Though the thread connecting the three are not as pronounced as, say, Minority Report and War of the Worlds, that connecting thread is still there.

[indy4 155]

Now, by comparison, I think (and this is by no means a bad thing) that Williams makes most everything he does distinctly his. Good-bye, Mr. Chips? He didn't write the songs, but the orchestrations and score cues bear his mark. That arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner? Couldn't have been done by anybody else.

Out of curiosity, what are the aspects of JW's work that connects it all (or most of it)? I don't doubt that it exists, I'm just curious as to what you are "looking for" in a piece of music when you say Williams has a tendency to leave his signature on most of his pieces, beyond the more obvious examples (like boom-tzzzz).

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Henry are you saying it's a bad thing that composers have an identifiable sound? If that makes one not versatile, I don't want anyone to be versatile.

When someone doesn't have a style, that's what makes them generic. The composers you listed are some good examples.

[Henry B 50]

I'd take Williams' developed style over those formulaic composers every day (although I hesitate to place Previn in this group, being so unfamiliar with his works). I think Williams writes consistently high quality music that's a pleasure to listen to. However ... does it always really elevate films? Sure, the music made Jaws. It made Star Wars, Close Encounters, Raiders and all the rest. But it's less clear cut when it comes to his lesser works. KotCS? The music does absolutely nothing for the film. It's so "just there." I think that at his best Williams creates unique works that bring out the best in films, but in his lesser efforts there is a tendency toward wallpapering, mickey mousing and other obvious types of scoring.

But let me just say, if you didn't know better (not just you, but all of us), no one would believe Schindler's List and Star Wars and Home Alone were written by the same man!

Three of his best and most disparate works. That's tricky. However, I think there are a few common threads ... the melodicism, the highly triadic main themes ... Well, what do you expect? The subject matter of each couldn't be more different. But how about Sleepers and Nixon, or War of the Worlds and Minority Report? Very easy to connect the dots there.

Now, by comparison, I think (and this is by no means a bad thing) that Williams makes most everything he does distinctly his. Good-bye, Mr. Chips? He didn't write the songs, but the orchestrations and score cues bear his mark. That arrangement of the Star-Spangled Banner? Couldn't have been done by anybody else.

Out of curiosity, what are the aspects of JW's work that connects it all (or most of it)? I don't doubt that it exists, I'm just curious as to what you are "looking for" in a piece of music when you say Williams has a tendency to leave his signature on most of his pieces, beyond the more obvious examples (like boom-tzzzz).

Well, in his Americana style works is one of the most obvious cliches: mournful, somewhat modal horn solos. The Star Wars prequels (particularly in the unreleased music) showcase that "fanfare" writing that no other composer seems to be able to do.

[indy4 155]

I see.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Actually, according New Yorker music critic Alex Ross, John Williams "has no style to call his own." Henry is peddling a myth!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I knew it!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

However, I think Home Alone has better scored scenes... take for example "Setting the Trap." It's much better in Home Alone than HA2, what with the tarantula being one of the sync points and so on.

It's a case of them both being good and needing both scores for selections from each, not one being better than the other. The tarantula part of the trap music has a cool sync point in 2 when Kevin clacks the electric things together. I think the performance in the sequel is stronger but I like both.

[Josh500 1,615]

I'd take Williams' developed style over those formulaic composers every day (although I hesitate to place Previn in this group, being so unfamiliar with his works). I think Williams writes consistently high quality music that's a pleasure to listen to. However ... does it always really elevate films? Sure, the music made Jaws. It made Star Wars, Close Encounters, Raiders and all the rest. But it's less clear cut when it comes to his lesser works. KotCS? The music does absolutely nothing for the film. It's so "just there." I think that at his best Williams creates unique works that bring out the best in films, but in his lesser efforts there is a tendency toward wallpapering, mickey mousing and other obvious types of scoring.

And that makes him less versatile? Don't embarrass yourself. KotCS does absolutely NOTHING for the movie? That what you really think? Granted, it's not a masterpiece or even a very innovative score, but the score works very well within the movie. It certainly does its job, and offers a good listening experience to boot. And before you start again, let me just remind you of "Irina's Theme" and "Mutt's Adventure" which are some of the most original JW pieces, IMO.

Like I said earlier, his only real "mark" seems to be that he writes consistently good music.

But let me just say, if you didn't know better (not just you, but all of us), no one would believe Schindler's List and Star Wars and Home Alone were written by the same man!

Three of his best and most disparate works. That's tricky. However, I think there are a few common threads ... the melodicism, the highly triadic main themes ... Well, what do you expect? The subject matter of each couldn't be more different. But how about Sleepers and Nixon, or War of the Worlds and Minority Report? Very easy to connect the dots there.

Of course, those're some of his most disparate works. I just wanted to show you how different his music can sound. Like I said earlier, it stands to reason that some scores sound similar. You remember me saying, "With the amount of music JW writes (much much more than the composers you named, btw), you don't seriously expect him to reinvent himself with every new score, do you?"

Henry are you saying it's a bad thing that composers have an identifiable sound? If that makes one not versatile, I don't want anyone to be versatile.

When someone doesn't have a style, that's what makes them generic. The composers you listed are some good examples.

Yes. That's the word. I guess that's what I was really thinking of when I said "uneven" earlier.

"Generic" does NOT equal "versatile," IMO.

[Henry B 50]

I'd take Williams' developed style over those formulaic composers every day (although I hesitate to place Previn in this group, being so unfamiliar with his works). I think Williams writes consistently high quality music that's a pleasure to listen to. However ... does it always really elevate films? Sure, the music made Jaws. It made Star Wars, Close Encounters, Raiders and all the rest. But it's less clear cut when it comes to his lesser works. KotCS? The music does absolutely nothing for the film. It's so "just there." I think that at his best Williams creates unique works that bring out the best in films, but in his lesser efforts there is a tendency toward wallpapering, mickey mousing and other obvious types of scoring.

And that makes him less versatile? Don't embarrass yourself. KotCS does absolutely NOTHING for the movie? That what you really think? Granted, it's not a masterpiece or even a very innovative score, but the score works very well within the movie. It certainly does its job, and offers a good listening experience to boot. And before you start again, let me just remind you of "Irina's Theme" and "Mutt's Adventure" which are some of the most original JW pieces, IMO.

It just blends into the background and has no impact whatsoever. I suppose the sound mix is partly to blame, but aside from the Crystal Skull theme I don't feel the music had any impact on the caliber of "Flight from Peru," "Map Room: Dawn," "Approaching the Stones," "Right Choice, Wrong Choice," etc. etc. Anyway, I really don't care to argue with you on purely subjective points like how good Irina's theme is (not very, in my opinion).

But let me just say, if you didn't know better (not just you, but all of us), no one would believe Schindler's List and Star Wars and Home Alone were written by the same man!

Three of his best and most disparate works. That's tricky. However, I think there are a few common threads ... the melodicism, the highly triadic main themes ... Well, what do you expect? The subject matter of each couldn't be more different. But how about Sleepers and Nixon, or War of the Worlds and Minority Report? Very easy to connect the dots there.

Of course, those're some of his most disparate works. I just wanted to show you how different his music can sound. Like I said earlier, it stands to reason that some scores sound similar. You remember me saying, "With the amount of music JW writes (much much more than the composers you named, btw), you don't seriously expect him to reinvent himself with every new score, do you?"

I believe you're confusing versatility with originality. No, I certainly don't expect Williams to reinvent himself every time.

Henry are you saying it's a bad thing that composers have an identifiable sound? If that makes one not versatile, I don't want anyone to be versatile.

When someone doesn't have a style, that's what makes them generic. The composers you listed are some good examples.

Yes. That's the word. I guess that's what I was really thinking of when I said "uneven" earlier.

"Generic" does NOT equal "versatile," IMO.

Uh-huh. I think versatility and style are two sides of a seesaw. The more stylistic you become the more constrained you are, creatively, because you're so caught up in, well, yourself. I think Goldsmith toed the line pretty well. Williams errs a little more toward the stylized side. Please don't confuse this with talent and training; Williams has it in spades.

[Josh500 1,615]

It just blends into the background and has no impact whatsoever. I suppose the sound mix is partly to blame, but aside from the Crystal Skull theme I don't feel the music had any impact on the caliber of "Flight from Peru," "Map Room: Dawn," "Approaching the Stones," "Right Choice, Wrong Choice," etc. etc. Anyway, I really don't care to argue with you on purely subjective points like how good Irina's theme is (not very, in my opinion).

Well, like I said, it's no masterpiece (on the level of the original 3 Indy scores), but it's far from having no impact whatsoever. But OK, that's your opinion, and I happen to disagree.

I believe you're confusing versatility with originality. No, I certainly don't expect Williams to reinvent himself every time.

And I believe you're confusing versatility with genericness.

Uh-huh. I think versatility and style are two sides of a seesaw. The more stylistic you become the more constrained you are, creatively, because you're so caught up in, well, yourself. I think Goldsmith toed the line pretty well. Williams errs a little more toward the stylized side. Please don't confuse this with talent and training; Williams has it in spades.

So one way you measure versatility is by determining how much "style" somebody has? The less style somebody has, the more versatile he is? Gotta be honest, that's sounds pretty flaky to me. You can have your own style, and still be very versatile. That's because music is incredibly flexible.

Also, let me ask you, what are the common threads of SL, SW, and HA? Apart from the fact that they contain outstanding quality music, that is. And I'm talking about the music itself, mind, not the way the soundtrack is structured, of course.

[publicist 4,643]

So one way you measure versatility is by determining how much "style" somebody has? The less style somebody has, the more versatile he is? Gotta be honest, that's sounds pretty flaky to me. You can have your own style, and still be very versatile. That's because music is incredibly flexible.

Also, let me ask you, what are the common threads of SL, SW, and HA? Apart from the fact that they contain outstanding quality music, that is. And I'm talking about the music itself, mind, not the way the soundtrack is structured, of course.

Josh, which long-standing film composer IS NOT versatile? Horner, Newton-Howard, Jarre, Bernstein, Zimmer, they all have tackled very different genres, sometimes with greater, sometimes with less success. It comes with the fu...ing job, man. But it's a flat fact that Williams is not exactly Mr. Versatile. It's not his core strength or his forte.

And it has a reason that the aforementioned composers like Goldsmith or Morricone have gone through sharply defined phases in their career. A drum machine phase, a more serial or atonal phase or most often in their late years, a rather conservative and romantic approach. In Williams case, he tends to be more more refined nowadays, and thankfully tries some new things now and then, but i still wouldn't dream of calling him more versatile than most other composers who worked on enough films.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Newton-Howard

"Gregson-Williams" is hyphenated, but "Newton Howard" is not. (Newton is Howard's middle name.)

[publicist 4,643]

Newton-Howard

"Gregson-Williams" is hyphenated, but "Newton Howard" is not. (Newton is Howard's middle name.)

Smartass!

[Jeshopk 8]

The casual listener might say that Home Alone 2 is the same as Home Alone 1 with the exception of a few new themes, but they would be wrong. The movie is so similar to the first, that the score has a number of reprises to stay in spirit of the first film. But it is mainly new underscore.

[publicist 4,643]

The casual listener might say that Home Alone 2 is the same as Home Alone 1 with the exception of a few new themes, but they would be wrong. The movie is so similar to the first, that the score has a number of reprises to stay in spirit of the first film. But it is mainly new underscore.

It is a perfectly alright sequel score. But why Williams endured the pain of watching/scoring another 2 hours of Mac Culkin and his terrible booby traps is anybody's question.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

TPM is an excellent score. Even the underscore has some interesting things going on.

It doesn't get near the excitement level of the first three though, due in part to the movie's many scenes of people standing around vaguely explaining the plot to each other.

Ric Ollie deserved his own motif... something very... obvious.

[Josh500 1,615]

The casual listener might say that Home Alone 2 is the same as Home Alone 1 with the exception of a few new themes, but they would be wrong. The movie is so similar to the first, that the score has a number of reprises to stay in spirit of the first film. But it is mainly new underscore.

Yes, you're right. And I'm glad I own both albums.

I love the short track "Running Through Town": very catchy and jazzy. This is JW being more Johnny than John, I think!

Also, "Suite from Angels with Filthy Souls II" makes me burst out laughing every time. This is so comically dramatic.

Moreover, "Down the Rope / Into the Park" has some nice (quite original, I thought) running away motif, complete with the sync point when Kevin reaches the phone booth and punches in the numbers.

Not to mention "Concierge," "Plaza Hotel," and "Haunted Brownstone." Yeah, HA2 definitely has its musical moments.

[Henry B 50]

The casual listener might say that Home Alone 2 is the same as Home Alone 1 with the exception of a few new themes, but they would be wrong. The movie is so similar to the first, that the score has a number of reprises to stay in spirit of the first film. But it is mainly new underscore.

I wouldn't argue that every single note Williams writes isn't absolutely perfect, but I believe nearly 50% of Home Alone 2 is directly reused from Home Alone with minimal changes. The 2-CD set is worth owning for such cues as the original "Holiday Flight."

[Diego 21]

Well, considering Columbus idea for the sequel, was "Hey, I know! Let's re-shoot the first movie only this time we'll do it in New York, just change the "old scary looking but actually nice man" with a "scary looking but actually nice pigeon lady", I think Williams did fine, afterall he was pretty much asked to score the same movie twice.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, considering Columbus idea for the sequel, was "Hey, I know! Let's re-shoot the first movie only this time we'll do it in New York, just change the "old scary looking but actually nice man" with a "scary looking but actually nice pigeon lady", I think Williams did fine, afterall he was pretty much asked to score the same movie twice.

Yes, good point.

Williams coming up with new music for basically the same scenes seems a little redundant.

[Red 75]

HA2 is a bit too much of a rehash, but the new stuff Williams did add in is pretty great.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Williams coming up with new music for basically the same scenes seems a little redundant.

A more versatile composer would've come up with something different.

[Diego 21]

So, how many different ways are there to score a couple of thieves being hit by buckets??

[Hlao-roo 389]

So, how many different ways are there to score a couple of thieves being hit by buckets??

The possibilities are endless!

[John Crichton 4]

How many different ways are there to hit thieves with buckets?

[Hlao-roo 389]

How many different ways are there to hit thieves with buckets?

The world may never know.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

HA:2 is sufficiently different for me to enjoy. I'd have bought Varese's CD if they weren't sold out (they released it way before I really knew what these limited releases were all about). Plus there are some nice underscore cues that I always liked, such as Concierge, and it's nice to have stuff from the original album expanded.

I'm surprised that Williams let them do a set like this actually.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I'm surprised that Williams let them do a set like this actually.

It was the Christmas spirit.

[Red 75]

Williams coming up with new music for basically the same scenes seems a little redundant.

A more versatile composer would've come up with something different.

Oh really?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

why isn't a genre movie's music "serious"?

Does the tone of the film have to be serious to make the film music serious.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Williams coming up with new music for basically the same scenes seems a little redundant.

A more versatile composer would've come up with something different.

Oh really?