The Official "Album Presentation vs Complete & Chronological Presentation" Thread

[OneBuckFilms 325]

I prefer to have them both.

As do I, in some cases.

[Datameister 2,088]

I'll offer the same composite solution I've been quietly advocating for a while now:

Release a one-disc soundtrack that has been edited to provide a tight listening experience, just like labels currently do. These will please folks who don't want to pay for additional material, could get bored by long albums, and/or simply tend to be put off by repetitive material arranged in an order that may not flow perfectly when heard without seeing the film for reference. Within the packaging for this single-disc album, include a unique code that allows the customer to download the complete, unedited, chronological score in a file format of their choice for perhaps $5 more, depending on the amount of music.

This solution is the best of both worlds. Customers get to listen to the music however they want, with the default (and cheapest) option being the one that will be sufficient for the majority of them. The labels won't lose money, either; they can manufacture however many physical albums they were originally going to manufacture, and then the web hosting for the complete scores is dirt-cheap. If demand for the complete score is low, the bandwidth costs will be low, too; on the other hand, if lots of people are downloading the complete score, the increased bandwidth costs will be offset by the people paying for the download.

Everyone wins. Even Thor.

Next!

[Richard Penna 3,759]

Actually, that IS what I do, for the most time. That still doesn't mean that I can't say what I feel when a score I love - perhaps one that has had NO previous release - is being mistreated in a C&C format.

Hehehehehehehe. Mistreated in C&C format. That's a sentence I've never seen before.

What if your favourite composer put out one of those albums that contains most of the score? (and there are many around, particularly smaller movies). Has the producer not done their job according to you?

What about Intrada's latest strategy of putting the highlights in one section, with the rest as bonus cues? Does that work for you?

It just seems selfish to me that you're hoping for restorative releases to remain unexpanded, when there are thousands of fans for whom it might be a grail. You can take out all the music you want, but it doesn't work the other way round.

[Thor 7,636]

It's fine having a separate thread for this (I thought there was one already), but I must say that if there is, for example, a new thread about a score I love that has just been released in a format I hate (C&C), I will be posting my relevant views there. So this is more like an addition, not a replacement for all time. Just FYI.

1. A great deal of material, sometimes important to a score's musical ideas, are omitted. Someone sees a movie, hears a great cue in the film, then wonders why it is not present on the soundtrack.

Maybe, but that presupposes that everyone who becomes interested in soundtracks, does so because of the films and how the music was there.

Well, that's not the case for me, and many like me. I became interested in soundtrack listening purely through other musical genres, mainly the concept album in electronic music and prog rock. Films had absolutely no bearing on this interest.

So soundtracks, to me, are (or should be) 'concept albums' that have used the score from a film as raw material for a NEW musical journey.

2. Many scores, including Star Wars, reflect musically the story behind the film for which it was written. A score might slowly evolve texturally and thematically over the course of a film, reflecting the film's flow, and editing a score down often sacrifices this aspect of a score in favor of a more general listening experience.

Quite the contrary, I think a C&C presentation RUINS the music's potential as a storyteller since the film is no longer there. It becomes a disruptive, schizophrenic, disjumbled string of musical cues that don't work very well alone. In order for them to make sense again, now that they are all alone, you have to re-arrange them according to the rules of MUSIC and MUSIC ALONE. Maintain the compositions, but select tracks that work well on their own and put them in an order that makes MUSICAL sense, not filmical.

Many scores also are deteriorating slowly, and much great music that deserves to be heard and preserved, will perish forever.

That's true, but unfortunately I'm not into soundtracks for the preservation aspect. Then I'd probably be doing something else instead, like archeology or something. Personally, I'm ONLY in it for the listening.

I'll offer the same composite solution I've been quietly advocating for a while now:

Release a one-disc soundtrack that has been edited to provide a tight listening experience, just like labels currently do. These will please folks who don't want to pay for additional material, could get bored by long albums, and/or simply tend to be put off by repetitive material arranged in an order that may not flow perfectly when heard without seeing the film for reference. Within the packaging for this single-disc album, include a unique code that allows the customer to download the complete, unedited, chronological score in a file format of their choice for perhaps $5 more, depending on the amount of music.

This solution is the best of both worlds. Customers get to listen to the music however they want, with the default (and cheapest) option being the one that will be sufficient for the majority of them. The labels won't lose money, either; they can manufacture however many physical albums they were originally going to manufacture, and then the web hosting for the complete scores is dirt-cheap. If demand for the complete score is low, the bandwidth costs will be low, too; on the other hand, if lots of people are downloading the complete score, the increased bandwidth costs will be offset by the people paying for the download.

Everyone wins. Even Thor.

Next!

That's not a bad idea, actually!

[Thor 7,636]

What if your favourite composer put out one of those albums that contains most of the score? (and there are many around, particularly smaller movies). Has the producer not done their job according to you?

No, at least not if he has neglected to re-conceptualize the music.

What about Intrada's latest strategy of putting the highlights in one section, with the rest as bonus cues? Does that work for you?

It's an OK compromise. The drawback, of course, is that I have to pay extra money for getting a whole bunch of extra tracks that I don't need - especially if it becomes a multiple-CD set. But that goes for your camp as well, having to pay for the album program.

It just seems selfish to me that you're hoping for restorative releases to remain unexpanded, when there are thousands of fans for whom it might be a grail. You can take out all the music you want, but it doesn't work the other way round.

Is it selfish to wish that the CD's were presented YOUR way? Of course. Preferences are "selfish" by nature! If you were in my position (and there were only album programs, no C&C), wouldn't you want them to change their policies too?

[Datameister 2,088]

I must say that if there is, for example, a new thread about a score I love that has just been released in a format I hate (C&C), I will be posting my relevant views there.

You've been told not to by an administrator.

That's not a bad idea, actually!

It's a perfect idea. You get exactly what you want, people who prefer a C&C release get exactly what they want, and labels get exactly what they want.

[Wojo 2,453]

Please name some "complete and chronological" soundtracks that are worse "listening experiences" than their OST, if one in fact existed.

[Trent B 337]

Good god some people just don't give up do they?

Here we go again with the derailing by Thor. This forum aint FSM, while they may tolerate his posts over there and never ban him, I know Jason won't tolerate his posts here. Jason has all ready given you a stern warning Thor, quit with the bullshit all ready or you'll end up getting banned. All though I suspect most of us here won't be sad if that happens.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

I've said before I prefer both. Like with Star Wars, I listen to three versions of the original recording. The original soundtrack, Anthology and Special Edition.

In many cases, album arrangements of cues are really good. Sometimes, they can be quite bad. Williams' music constantly ends up being so great that leaving out any particular cues in inexcusable.

[Thor 7,636]

Please name some "complete and chronological" soundtracks that are worse "listening experiences" than their OST, if one in fact existed.

99% of them.

Once in a blue moon, a C&C album comes along that works pretty good, like Vince di Cola's ROCKY IV recently (I believe that was C&C, but I'm not sure). But it's very, very rare.

Good god some people just don't give up do they?

Here we go again with the derailing by Thor. This forum aint FSM, while they may tolerate his posts over there and never ban him, I know Jason won't tolerate his posts here. Jason has all ready given you a stern warning Thor, quit with the bullshit all ready or you'll end up getting banned. All though I suspect most of us here won't be sad if that happens.

Banned for what, exactly? Having a minority preference and defending yourself when people attack you - like you just did?

[Wojo 2,453]

Within the packaging for this single-disc album, include a unique code that allows the customer to download the complete, unedited, chronological score in a file format of their choice for perhaps $5 more, depending on the amount of music.

Will the MP3-download constitute a "second license" of the music, or is it covered by the first license for the disc?

If the studio behind, say, Predator only authorized Intrada to sell 3,000 physical discs, what impact would those codes have?

Would they still permit 3,000 discs, and add on 3,000 download codes, or would they have to reduce the number of discs to 1,500 such that 1,500 + 1,500 = 3,000 licenses?

Or if they insist on 3,000 discs with 3,000 codes, would that double the price for the 6,000 licenses dealt?

The large cost for the MP3 stick in the Tim Burton set leads me to believe the set includes a second license in the cost that still politely reminds you that the owner of the discs is also the owner of the MP3 files.

You can't argue that MP3 downloads will encourage rampant piracy and file-sharing. It's already out of control.

I've said before I prefer both. Like with Star Wars, I listen to three versions of the original recording. The original soundtrack, Anthology and Special Edition.

I lack the "original" recordings, so I settle for the Anthology and Special Editions, along with the Gerhardts when I want something really different.

I appreciate how different each version can be. The extended tuba solo at the end of "Han Solo Returns" on the Anthology. The lengthy edit of "The Last Battle" on the Anthology. The overlayed trombone lament in the Special Edition version of "Faking the Code" and all of the music on Endor.

[Thor 7,636]

I lack the "original" recordings, so I settle for the Anthology and Special Editions, along with the Gerhardts when I want something really different.

I can't stand the Special Editions (which I sold quite recently), but I love the Gerhardts and I think the Anthology set is the best way to go - expanded somewhat from previous albums, but not as much as the SE's. Perfect balance for such mammoth scores. The fourth disc is totally useless, though.

[Wojo 2,453]

Please name some "complete and chronological" soundtracks that are worse "listening experiences" than their OST, if one in fact existed.

99% of them.

Once in a blue moon, a C&C album comes along that works pretty good, like Vince di Cola's ROCKY IV recently (I believe that was C&C, but I'm not sure). But it's very, very rare.

This is my problem with you. I asked a nice, civil question, and you respond with the same opinion as before, unable or unwilling to expound upon it.

Back it up with some examples. I don't care if you wrote a Master's thesis on film music. That's not relevant.

[Datameister 2,088]

Will the MP3-download constitute a "second license" of the music, or is it covered by the first license for the disc?

I'm no expert in legal matters, but I would assume most of the cost of the download would have to do with securing the license for the additional music.

If the studio behind, say, Predator only authorized Intrada to sell 3,000 physical discs, what impact would those codes have?

Would they still permit 3,000 discs, and add on 3,000 download codes, or would they have to reduce the number of discs to 1,500 such that 1,500 + 1,500 = 3,000 licenses?

Or if they insist on 3,000 discs with 3,000 codes, would that double the price for the 6,000 licenses dealt?

That is a VERY interesting point. I'm honestly not sure. It would be interesting to hear the dialogue about this between the labels and the folks who have the rights to the music.

You can't argue that MP3 downloads will encourage rampant piracy and file-sharing. It's already out of control.

Exactly. People who want to share music are going to do it anyway, regardless of whether it starts out on disc or as a file online.

[Wojo 2,453]

The fourth disc is totally useless, though.

WHY? HYPOCRITE!!!!!

I HAVE NO FURTHER USE FOR YOU, OLD MAN. YOU REPEATEDLY DENY THE FILM HAS ANY IMPORTANCE, SO HERE IS A CD OF FILM MUSIC NOT TIED TO ANY ONE FILM THAT CREATES A COHERENT EXPERIENCE, AND YOU SPURN IT. JACKASS.

[Thor 7,636]

Please name some "complete and chronological" soundtracks that are worse "listening experiences" than their OST, if one in fact existed.

99% of them.

Once in a blue moon, a C&C album comes along that works pretty good, like Vince di Cola's ROCKY IV recently (I believe that was C&C, but I'm not sure). But it's very, very rare.

This is my problem with you. I asked a nice, civil question, and you respond with the same opinion as before, unable or unwilling to expound upon it.

Back it up with some examples. I don't care if you wrote a Master's thesis on film music. That's not relevant.

But what do you want me to do? Do you really want me to list every single C&C presentation I've ever heard? Sorry, but I don't have the time for that. I've disliked ALL of them, except some very, very few - like ROCKY IV above. Isn't that enough for you?

[Wojo 2,453]

No it's not.

[Thor 7,636]

No it's not.

Well, then sorry, there's not much I can do. I can just rattle off some random C&C titles off the top of my head, if that helps?

[Jeff 10]

I'm being serious here Jeff, honestly ...but are you taking the piss?

Thor has some valid points, but it seems to me that the other side can stand on its own two feet without resorting to banning someone with an alternate opinion. But like I said originally, I could be missing something. Maybe Thor posted on FSM that he'd burn your house down if you didn't change your opinion. Or are you afraid the labels are going to read this thread and make their marketing decisions based on his post?

If you like, we can change the format and only post affirmative comments:

"I like the prequels."

"I do too."

"The prequels suck." *user banned*

"We're agreed then, the prequels are good."

That would be pretty boring.

[Richard Penna 3,759]

It becomes a disruptive, schizophrenic, disjumbled string of musical cues that don't work very well alone.

You're making the basic judgement that no score can be a good listen away from the film, unless every cue's been jumbled and any section audible only to dogs has been edited out.

Many, many scores are better than that.

The fourth disc is totally useless, though.

WHY? HYPOCRITE!!!!!

I HAVE NO FURTHER USE FOR YOU, OLD MAN. YOU REPEATEDLY DENY THE FILM HAS ANY IMPORTANCE, SO HERE IS A CD OF FILM MUSIC NOT TIED TO ANY ONE FILM THAT CREATES A COHERENT EXPERIENCE, AND YOU SPURN IT. JACKASS.

But seriously, that's a f*cking good point.

[Jay 37,484]

Alright, I've moved the thread-derailing posts from Thor and those arguing him out of the "A Complete Score... (but only one)" thread, and merged them with OneBuckFilm's thread.

I encourage full discussion here!

And Thor, please refrain from derailing other threads in the future. Thank you.

[Thor 7,636]

He, he...funny post, Wojo.

Actually, disc 4 has no 'coherent listening experience' in mind whatsoever. It's just a disc of leftovers in no particular musical order. That's why it's useless. At least to me.

[Wojo 2,453]

No it's not.

Well, then sorry, there's not much I can do. I can just rattle off some random C&C titles off the top of my head, if that helps?

No. I want you to list every C&C single soundtrack ever released, and we will debate it. That is the purpose of your own thread.

When we are complete, we will count them up. If 99% of them are weakened by being complete instead of partial, then your argument is valid.

Otherwise you are throwing meaningless statistics around.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

There's some album assemblies that I like - and on a basic level, I understand the need to have 30-45 minutes of consistently good music that flows well enough. But I have a lot of fun assembling them myself too.

[Thor 7,636]

No it's not.

Well, then sorry, there's not much I can do. I can just rattle off some random C&C titles off the top of my head, if that helps?

No. I want you to list every C&C single soundtrack ever released, and we will debate it. That is the purpose of your own thread.

When we are complete, we will count them up. If 99% of them are weakened by being complete instead of partial, then your argument is valid.

Otherwise you are throwing meaningless statistics around.

Now you're just rambling, my friend.

Alright, I've moved the thread-derailing posts from Thor and those arguing him out of the "A Complete Score... (but only one)" thread, and merged them with OneBuckFilm's thread.

I encourage full discussion here!

And Thor, please refrain from derailing other threads in the future. Thank you.

It's fine with a separate thread, Jason, but let me just reiterate that I did NOT derail the other thread, which is clear if you read it. I only defended myself when attacked - unprovoked even. So the warning should be directed to those attackers. Thank you.

I will continue to post my C&C views in the future - IF and ONLY IF it is relevant to a discussion - and I hope then that everyone will be mature enough to accept a differing viewpoint and move on, and not make a big deal out of it. Because it's really nothing to make a big deal about.

[Richard Penna 3,759]

It just seems selfish to me that you're hoping for restorative releases to remain unexpanded, when there are thousands of fans for whom it might be a grail. You can take out all the music you want, but it doesn't work the other way round.

Is it selfish to wish that the CD's were presented YOUR way? Of course. Preferences are "selfish" by nature! If you were in my position (and there were only album programs, no C&C), wouldn't you want them to change their policies too?

Ok, you want releases to contain less music. Most of us want them to contain more, so we can choose our own arrangements.

If you start out with more, anyone (including yourself) can make a listening experience exactly how they want it. If you're willing to put in just a little bit of effort, you can remove the tracks that destroy your listening experience, and everyone else can have what they want too. I know you think that's the album producer's role, but just as we accept that complete releases usually aren't possible, you've also got to accept that the market is geared towards C&C, but that it doesn't stop you achieving what you want, with the given resources.

If you start out with less, the only happy person on this board would be you. Everyone else is clamouring for the additional material.

I think the pro-C&C stance allows for a wider variation of tastes than yours.

[Alan 689]

To me, listening to a score that has been edited or moved around for the purpose of creating what the audience might call a good "listening experience" is just like watching a widescreen film in pan and scan just because TVs used to be square.

Does anyone seriously prefer watching Star Wars minus 40% and with artificial camera pans?? I certainly don't prefer listening to a composers work, or art, minus "x"%

[Thor 7,636]

It just seems selfish to me that you're hoping for restorative releases to remain unexpanded, when there are thousands of fans for whom it might be a grail. You can take out all the music you want, but it doesn't work the other way round.

Is it selfish to wish that the CD's were presented YOUR way? Of course. Preferences are "selfish" by nature! If you were in my position (and there were only album programs, no C&C), wouldn't you want them to change their policies too?

Ok, you want releases to contain less music. Most of us want them to contain more, so we can choose our own arrangements.

If you start out with more, anyone (including yourself) can make a listening experience exactly how they want it. If you're willing to put in just a little bit of effort, you can have your perfect listening experience, and everyone else can have what they want too.

If you start out with less, the only happy person on this board would be you. Everyone else would have to resort to DVD-rips.

Which is the more selfish preference?

Your argument is the one I meet most often, so I actually have a FAQ for it:

FREQUENTLY-ASKED-QUESTION NO. 1:

"So why don't you just arrange your own album out of a C&C presentation?"

ANSWER:

1) I'm not a record producer and record producing is an artform. So I leave that to the actual artists and professionals (especially if it's the composer him/herself producing). I don't usually fix my own sink or build my own house either. I get qualified plumbers and carpenters for that.

2) It should not be required of the consumer to complete the product. You buy a finished product, including a finished presentation of the music. Otherwise, it would be a bit like buying a car, but getting it in pieces and asking you to put it together yourself!

It often amazes me that some people think anyone can put together an album that will automatically be just as good and thought-out as if Danny Elfman or John Williams or whoever had done it, the actual composers of the music. There's a lot more going into album production than picking out the tracks you like!

To me, listening to a score that has been edited or moved around for the purpose of creating what the audience might call a good "listening experience" is just like watching a widescreen film in pan and scan just because TVs used to be square.

Does anyone seriously prefer watching Star Wars minus 40% and with artificial camera pans?? I certainly don't prefer listening to a composers work, or art, minus "x"%

That comparison doesn't really work, IMO, because there's no media transfer taking place. An edited or "fixed" film is still a film. A music that changes from one medium (film) to another (CD) is a different beast altogether. It's a transfer that MUST have consequences for how it should be presented, otherwise you're not presenting it on the new medium's terms. And that's cutting the music short, IMO.

[Wojo 2,453]

Your words, not mine.

99% of "complete and chronological" soundtracks that are worse "listening experiences" than their OST, if one in fact existed.

Just list 50 and debate them, and I'll let the 48% slide as a solid 99%.

Who wants to begin? I will.

The Phantom Menace got an OST and a C&C. The OST came out first. Pretty typical John Williams construction of an album for the 90s. Cues are cut up and glued back together all over the place. It's a great listening experience if you never saw the movie. If you saw the movie, it might bother you. The C&C however is a mess. Tiny short tracks, a lot of looping, tracking, and abrupt edits. Exactly what you don't want a C&C soundtrack to be.

Jurassic Park only got an OST. It's unfair to talk about C&C in this case since people have to use DVD rips, but the level of edits and looping required make me run back to the OST.

Shore's The Lord of the Rings got first an OST, then C&C to the nines with the Complete Recordings. There is no excuse to use this in the argument because the C&C was exactly what those fans who clamored for complete scores wanted. Anybody who prefers album versions should be happy with the OST albums, especially since two of them won Oscars.

Indiana Jones is available as both OST and (kinda) C&C versions. Nobody in the Thor camp should ever think of buying the Concord box, since the DCC Raiders is generally superior anyways, and owning the expensive Japanese import of TOD is a sign of class, wealth, and prestige.

Willow might be incomplete, but its long tracks remind me of lengthy movements to a symphony (Mozart cough cough), which I adore. I am not bothered by the lack of a C&C release, and would only buy it to in fact own a copy instead my iPatched version.

SpaceCamp is only available as the re-release of its 80s OST? It is what it is. I haven't seen the movie since Clinton was Prez so I don't care what's missing or out of order.

Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, Seven Years in Tibet, Memoirs of a Geisha, and Catch Me if You Can are missing music? Doesn't bother me. I'll stick with the OSTs thank you very much.

Michael G's Star Trek got a two disc deluxe edition that's still not C&C. It drives a lot of people batty here. Was it required? Probably not. I bought it because I'm a Star Trek completist, then I sold the one disc version.

[OneBuckFilms 325]

He, he...funny post, Wojo.

Actually, disc 4 has no 'coherent listening experience' in mind whatsoever. It's just a disc of leftovers in no particular musical order. That's why it's useless. At least to me.

It may not appeal to you, but to me, it is far from useless. It provides interesting alternates and extras that provide insights into Might-Have-Been scenarios, ideas and cues that are worth hearing dispite the fact that they do not fit onto the other disks due to space or general flow, and can be enjoyed on their own individually.

Same goes for some of the 4th CD of the Concorde Indiana Jones set.

For that one, I actually inserted the cues on my HD into their right place by film order, and it all flows very well for me musically.

Star Wars (Episode IV, I guess) is pretty much flawless in C & C form, and I prefer it to the Anthology or the OST personally.

The OST, it must be said though, still works wonderfully as an album.

[Thor 7,636]

If you want to debate individual titles, Wojo, that's fine by me. I may not have heard all of them, so I'll comment on those where I have.

The Phantom Menace got an OST and a C&C. The OST came out first. Pretty typical John Williams construction of an album for the 90s. Cues are cut up and glued back together all over the place. It's a great listening experience if you never saw the movie. If you saw the movie, it might bother you. The C&C however is a mess. Tiny short tracks, a lot of looping, tracking, and abrupt edits. Exactly what you don't want a C&C soundtrack to be.

Love the original album, hated the Sony 2CD. But to be honest, I don't really see the difference between that expansion and other expansions.

Jurassic Park only got an OST. It's unfair to talk about C&C in this case since people have to use DVD rips, but the level of edits and looping required make me run back to the OST.

Never heard anything other than the OST, which is great and my alltime favourite soundtrack!

Shore's The Lord of the Rings got first an OST, then C&C to the nines with the Complete Recordings. There is no excuse to use this in the argument because the C&C was exactly what those fans who clamored for complete scores wanted. Anybody who prefers album versions should be happy with the OST albums, especially since two of them won Oscars.

I have all three OST's, which I'm pleased with and I feel represent the scores well. I have zero interest in the expansions.

Indiana Jones is available as both OST and (kinda) C&C versions. Nobody in the Thor camp should ever think of buying the Concord box, since the DCC Raiders is generally superior anyways, and owning the expensive Japanese import of TOD is a sign of class, wealth, and prestige.

I've had the DCC since forever, and it ain't too bad, but I think the Polydor is superior in terms of selection & presentation.

I gave the expanded DOOM from Concorde a shot, but hated it. It's now on my sales list for a mere $7. The original album is perfect.

The CRUSADE album is also perfect. Had the expanded boot once (or was it a Vol. 2 thingie?), which was godawful in every possible way.

Willow might be incomplete, but its long tracks remind me of lengthy movements to a symphony (Mozart cough cough), which I adore. I am not bothered by the lack of a C&C release, and would only buy it to in fact own a copy instead my iPatched version.

WILLOW is fine, I agree. A BIIIT too long here and there, perhaps. Could easily have weeded away some 10-15 minutes to make for a more flowing experience.

SpaceCamp is only available as the re-release of its 80s OST? It is what it is. I haven't seen the movie since Clinton was Prez so I don't care what's missing or out of order.

Same here. It's not that great a score to begin with.

Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, Seven Years in Tibet, Memoirs of a Geisha, and Catch Me if You Can are missing music? Doesn't bother me. I'll stick with the OSTs thank you very much.

Agreed!

Michael G's Star Trek got a two disc deluxe edition that's still not C&C. It drives a lot of people batty here. Was it required? Probably not. I bought it because I'm a Star Trek completist, then I sold the one disc version.

I have neither, as I'm neither a fan of Giacchino nor STAR TREK.

Hey, we actually AGREE on several of these!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

Indiana Jones is available as both OST and (kinda) C&C versions. Nobody in the Thor camp should ever think of buying the Concord box, since the DCC Raiders is generally superior anyways, and owning the expensive Japanese import of TOD is a sign of class, wealth, and prestige.

Or that you were a member of the Star Wars fan club circa 2000.

[Richard Penna 3,759]

It just seems selfish to me that you're hoping for restorative releases to remain unexpanded, when there are thousands of fans for whom it might be a grail. You can take out all the music you want, but it doesn't work the other way round.

Is it selfish to wish that the CD's were presented YOUR way? Of course. Preferences are "selfish" by nature! If you were in my position (and there were only album programs, no C&C), wouldn't you want them to change their policies too?

Ok, you want releases to contain less music. Most of us want them to contain more, so we can choose our own arrangements.

If you start out with more, anyone (including yourself) can make a listening experience exactly how they want it. If you're willing to put in just a little bit of effort, you can have your perfect listening experience, and everyone else can have what they want too.

If you start out with less, the only happy person on this board would be you. Everyone else would have to resort to DVD-rips.

Which is the more selfish preference?

Your argument is the one I meet most often, so I actually have a FAQ for it:

FREQUENTLY-ASKED-QUESTION NO. 1:

"So why don't you just arrange your own album out of a C&C presentation?"

ANSWER:

1) I'm not a record producer and record producing is an artform. So I leave that to the actual artists and professionals (especially if it's the composer him/herself producing). I don't usually fix my own sink or build my own house either. I get qualified plumbers and carpenters for that.

2) It should not be required of the consumer to complete the product. You buy a finished product, including a finished presentation of the music. Otherwise, it would be a bit like buying a car, but getting it in pieces and asking you to put it together yourself!

It often amazes me that some people think anyone can put together an album that will automatically be just as good and thought-out as if Danny Elfman or John Williams or whoever had done it, the actual composers of the music. There's a lot more going into album production than picking out the tracks you like!

So Intrada sells uncompleted products every 2 weeks? Any other compliments?

And a 'finished presentation of music'. Sorry, but that's a total bullshit argument. No two people have the same description for a finished presentation. I might say that an album works better if you removed tracks 2 and 4, so I remove them. Someone else might prefer another cue instead of them, and then you come along and request that the producer just leaves off any cues that don't directly relate to the main character.

You can't meet all those scenarios directly, but if everyone, and yes, that includes you , could accept that film music's primary medium is in a film and is designed to work with the images and dialogue, and were willing to do a bit of work to adapt it to your specific needs, you can have what you want.

If you buy anything, and want to use it for a different purpose than it was designed for, you shouldn't be surprised if you needed to open up the back, cross the blue and red wires and screw it back up again. You Thor just don't want to do any of the customising work yourself.

[Wojo 2,453]

I love customizing. I don't care about the artist's vision. He has my money, I have his work. End of transaction.

I would customize books if I could, but removing pages would compromise the integrity of the others, and it would fall apart. And Sharpie marker bleeds through to the other side.

[OneBuckFilms 325]

I prefer the Concorde TOD to the hugely inadequate OST release, and find that cues such as To Pankot Palace and the finale cues are among my favorite cues of the score.

[steb74 53]

No argument there!

[Red 75]

I prefer the Concorde TOD to the hugely inadequate OST release, and find that cues such as To Pankot Palace and the finale cues are among my favorite cues of the score.

I don't see how you could disagree with that, honestly. Not preferring complete editions is one thing, but not giving decent representation of a score on an OST is another. Also, the Concorde releases weren't totally complete.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I haven't read all of the posts here, but...

Thor, don't you think you might be the source of the problem if every single person on here and FSM has a direct problem with your hate for complete releases? Is everyone else the ones who are crazy, and you are the only sane one? Think about it. Like someone else said earlier, we don't have anything against your opinion or your preference. It's just that you like to ram it down our throats. You said something along the lines of being fine with your "None" response in the "A complete score" thread and leaving it at that. But you very well knew going into that thread what you were going to start. Why go into a thread SPECIFICALLY for discussion about complete releases when you hate them? You knew what would entail, and you continuously do this sort of thing. If I hated Led Zeppelin, I wouldn't go onto a LZ forum and say how much I hated them. Maybe you're just a pessimist, I don't know. Wojo said awhile back, you don't talk about football or movies or barely clad women (at least here). All you talk about is your hate for complete scores. Maybe if you just, y'know, stopped for awhile? I understand wanting to express your personal problems with the releases the labels have been putting out, but allowing others to see you in a different light could improve your image.

And complete releases aren't a way for me to relive the film. Like you always say, I'll watch the film if I want the full experience. What most of us here are getting out of complete releases is just flat out great music. It's music we enjoy based on its own merits, and we just want it so we can listen to it. I guess a good analogy would be hearing a never before released song by your favorite band at a concert, and not being able to listen to it at home. Bootlegs. We just want official releases so we can trash those crappy sounding bootlegs.

[OneBuckFilms 325]

I prefer the Concorde TOD to the hugely inadequate OST release, and find that cues such as To Pankot Palace and the finale cues are among my favorite cues of the score.

I don't see how you could disagree with that, honestly. Not preferring complete editions is one thing, but not giving decent representation of a score on an OST is another. Also, the Concorde releases weren't totally complete.

Oh, nowhere even CLOSE to complete. We all know that. An pitch/speed issues, discussed at length.

There are cases of both good and bad releases in Album, Expanded and Complete categories.

The infamous TPM: Ultimate Edition illustrates precisely how NOT to do a complete release. Just a lousily cut up isolated score track.

I find FSM's Star Trek II and Star Trek III are pretty much perfect. Music remastered as best as possible, great liner notes, nice artwork, and Trek III included the OST as a second disc, also remastered.

Intrada's great with these kinds of releases, with Alien and The Wind and The Lion. La-La Land's Alien Resurrection and Batman are also excellent releases, IMHO.

In the end, I love BOTH kinds of releases, and if a complete release contains the OST arrangement, that's a nice extra for me.

I also loved La-La Land's InnerSPACE recently, and I had the OST.

[Thor 7,636]

So Intrada sells uncompleted products every 2 weeks? Any other compliments?

Yes, they do (at least when they don't include the album programs).

And a 'finished presentation of music'. Sorry, but that's a total bullshit argument. No two people have the same description for a finished presentation. I might say that an album works better if you removed tracks 2 and 4, so I remove them. Someone else might prefer another cue instead of them, and then you come along and request that the producer just leaves off any cues that don't directly relate to the main character.

You can't meet all those scenarios directly, but if everyone, and yes, that includes you , could accept that film music's primary medium is in a film and is designed to work with the images and dialogue, and were willing to do a bit of work to adapt it to your specific needs, you can have what you want.

If you buy anything, and want to use it for a different purpose than it was designed for, you shouldn't be surprised if you needed to open up the back, cross the blue and red wires and screw it back up again. You Thor just don't want to do any of the customising work yourself.

And - to use your own words - that's pretty much a bullshit statement, since you clearly didn't read a single word of what I wrote. Again, I neither CAN nor SHOULD arrange the albums myself. It has nothing to do with laziness. Do you usually buy a canvas from a painter while he says "here, fill in the artwork yourself"? Do you usually buy an unedited reel of film footage, being told "here, put the film together yourself"? In my opinion, album production is an INTEGRAL aspect of the artistic process that goes into creating a soundtrack album, just as much as the actual composition - HOW to arrange the music for a new medium now that the film is gone, how to make the score into a concept album not that unlike prog rock albums or programmatic classical music. That's not something that everyone can do with equal skill. Record producers can, however, especially if it's also the composer him or herself. Sure, we can still dislike his or her presentation of the score - that's our right. But if that's his or her artistic vision of the score on CD, well then it is that.

A soundtrack album is only finished, IMO, when there has been a creative re-arrangement of the music. Anything before that is just presenting lots of raw materials to us, and that is shortchanging the customer (at least my kind of customer).

Koray Savas:

Thor, don't you think you might be the source of the problem if every single person on here and FSM has a direct problem with your hate for complete releases?

First of all, that's your selective perception. Not every single person is opposed to my viewpoint. Many agree. We are, however, in the minority. And there is - or should not be - any 'problem'. Having someone around you who don't share your opinion is not a problem. It's a fact of life.

Think about it. Like someone else said earlier, we don't have anything against your opinion or your preference. It's just that you like to ram it down our throats. You said something along the lines of being fine with your "None" response in the "A complete score" thread and leaving it at that. But you very well knew going into that thread what you were going to start.

No, I didn't. It was a legitimate response to a legitimate topic, no more no less. No "baiting" for anything. And why SHOULD it create a stir in the first place? Why does it feel threatening to some people that there exist others who don't share their preference? I just don't get that.

Why go into a thread SPECIFICALLY for discussion about complete releases when you hate them?

Because I have just as much right to say that I don't want ANY expansions, just as you have a right to say which ones you would like to see. While expansions don't interest me, the topic always does.

Wojo said awhile back, you don't talk about football or movies or barely clad women (at least here).

That's your selective perception again. You should hang around the off-topic section at FSM more. Or maintitles.net. I love to talk about other things than film music. In fact, I very much prefer that these days, as I've said pretty much said all I wanted to say about film music over the last decade and a half. Most of it is just regurgitating, anyway. It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it!

nd complete releases aren't a way for me to relive the film. Like you always say, I'll watch the film if I want the full experience. What most of us here are getting out of complete releases is just flat out great music. It's music we enjoy based on its own merits, and we just want it so we can listen to it. I guess a good analogy would be hearing a never before released song by your favorite band at a concert, and not being able to listen to it at home. Bootlegs. We just want official releases so we can trash those crappy sounding bootlegs.

Good for you. That doesn't work for me, though. I approach soundtracks in a very, very different way, and don't really care what music made it or didn't make it to the album from the film. All that matters is how the existing album holds up as a singular listening experience.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I can't stand C&C either. I've listened to a few and all the extra music was just terrible; the original masters should be burned. No wonder they left it off the OSTs.

[Richard Penna 3,759]

So Intrada sells uncompleted products every 2 weeks? Any other compliments?

Yes, they do (at least when they don't include the album programs).

And a 'finished presentation of music'. Sorry, but that's a total bullshit argument. No two people have the same description for a finished presentation. I might say that an album works better if you removed tracks 2 and 4, so I remove them. Someone else might prefer another cue instead of them, and then you come along and request that the producer just leaves off any cues that don't directly relate to the main character.

You can't meet all those scenarios directly, but if everyone, and yes, that includes you , could accept that film music's primary medium is in a film and is designed to work with the images and dialogue, and were willing to do a bit of work to adapt it to your specific needs, you can have what you want.

If you buy anything, and want to use it for a different purpose than it was designed for, you shouldn't be surprised if you needed to open up the back, cross the blue and red wires and screw it back up again. You Thor just don't want to do any of the customising work yourself.

And - to use your own words - that's pretty much a bullshit statement, since you clearly didn't read a single word of what I wrote. Again, I neither CAN nor SHOULD arrange the albums myself. It has nothing to do with laziness. Do you usually buy a canvas from a painter while he says "here, fill in the artwork yourself"? Do you usually buy an unedited reel of film footage, being told "here, put the film together yourself"? In my opinion, album production is an INTEGRAL aspect of the artistic process that goes into creating a soundtrack album, just as much as the actual composition - HOW to arrange the music for a new medium now that the film is gone, how to make the score into a concept album not that unlike prog rock albums or programmatic classical music. That's not something that everyone can do with equal skill. Record producers can, however, especially if it's also the composer him or herself. Sure, we can still dislike his or her presentation of the score - that's our right. But if that's his or her artistic vision of the score on CD, well then it is that.

A soundtrack album is only finished, IMO, when there has been a creative re-arrangement of the music. Anything before that is just presenting lots of raw materials to us, and that is shortchanging the customer (at least my kind of customer).

And producing an album is exactly what Intrada do on a regular basis. They're just not 'creatively rearranginging' it exactly how you want. Are you getting my point? Everyone's idea of a good album is different, but for most people, an arrangement that presents the most amount of material to work with is the preferable option. If Intrada approached every project by saying 'ok, tracks 3 through 5 are from the crucial fight scene at the start of the film, but on CD, it's a little loud compared to the piano-based opening track, and the percussion goes on a little too long to the optimal listening experience, so let's leave those two off. This score has never been released before in 30 years, but no one will mind'', then you'd be ecstatic that Intrada had done all the work removing the less musical bits, but everyone else would be unhappy.

I neither CAN nor SHOULD arrange the albums myself.

Sorry, but that's your choice. Most others enjoy it. You're into film music for different reasons than the rest of us, and hence you've got to accept you won't like everything that's offered.

Trust me, I have some alternative views on life (I hate drinking, don't get the point of it, don't like going out) but I quietly accept that most people enjoy these things and that some things won't be geared towards me.

[Thor 7,636]

And producing an album is exactly what Intrada do on a regular basis. They're just not 'creatively rearranginging' it exactly how you want. Are you getting my point? Everyone's idea of a good album is different, but for most people, an arrangement that presents the most amount of material to work with is the preferable option. If Intrada approached every project by saying 'ok, tracks 3 through 5 are from the crucial fight scene at the start of the film, but on CD, it's a little loud compared to the piano-based opening track, and the percussion goes on a little too long to the optimal listening experience, so let's leave those two off. This score has never been released before in 30 years, but no one will mind'', then you'd be ecstatic that Intrada had done all the work removing the less musical bits, but everyone else would be unhappy.

Maybe, maybe not. At least they would have done their job as the creators of the artwork. If some people are unhappy with the result, that's just how it is. Sometimes, I'm unhappy with a film I've seen too. Or a book I've read. Or a painting I've seen. Heck, even I could be unhappy with the arranged album. The important thing is that there IS an arranged album for us to consume.

Most of the time, though, producers and composers have created excellent album programs for us (me). They know what they're doing. They rarely miss the boat.

Sorry, but that's your choice. Most others enjoy it. You're into film music for different reasons than the rest of us, and hence you've got to accept you won't like everything that's offered.

I accept it, but I don't like it. And I reserve my RIGHT to say that I don't like it and that I wish it were different - just as you have a right to say that you don't like to drink. I have no control over what is put out there. All I - and everyone else who are not in the industry - can do when we encounter something we don't like, is to voice our dissent in the relevant discussions. And fora like these are exactly the places where we can do it.

(PS. For the record, I'm not into film music for a different reason than the majority, only SOUNDTRACKS. I love to talk about how music works in film, but that is only part of my FILM interest, which is another thing altogether. These two interests have no relation to each other).

------------------------

THE FOLLOWING WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN ITS OWN POST, BUT SOMEHOW APPEARED IN THIS OLD ONE. ANYWAY:

You know what would be interesting and kinda new in this debate?

If someone gave a criticism of an album arrangement as an independent entity, an album in its own right. NOT a criticism based on what music is missing or not missing, but just how it holds up on its own.

I've very rarely seen that from the C&C camp, but I'd love to see one.

[publicist 4,643]

In my opinion, album production is an INTEGRAL aspect of the artistic process that goes into creating a soundtrack album, just as much as the actual composition - HOW to arrange the music for a new medium now that the film is gone, how to make the score into a concept album not that unlike prog rock albums or programmatic classical music. That's not something that everyone can do with equal skill. Record producers can, however, especially if it's also the composer him or herself. Sure, we can still dislike his or her presentation of the score - that's our right. But if that's his or her artistic vision of the score on CD, well then it is that.

But that's a sophism of Hobgoodian size at work here...you elevate album producing to an artform, when it often is dictated by bare necessities like release dates, sessions not yet recorded and what else goes with the frantic schedule of a movie release.

Not that i don't see the advantages of a lean and mean 40-minute album...most soundtrack collectors are incurable in their fixation on the respective film and just don't get that a lot of score music is purely functional and must not exist outside it,

BUT

your whole act has become so dogmatic that it now seems that there just CANNOT be a certain piece of unreleased you like or want BECAUSE it was not part of the 'album vision'. And that seems a bit sad, to be honest.

[Wojo 2,453]

The cause is lost. Thor has been defending his opinions and garnered so much bad blood for so many years that there is no way that anyone could hope to change his mind. The internet would crash down around him.

There will always be one C&C available out of a limited stack because Thor won't buy one. That's good enough for me.

[steb74 53]

I love to talk about how music works in film, but that is only part of my FILM interest, which is another thing altogether.

The problem is to do that justice, one needs to explore and understand the music beyond the album presentation and listening to any 'missing' music just by watching the film is not really a good enough option for reasons I've stated before, simple really.

These two interests have no relation to each other.

As much as you might wish they didn't ....they do, nobody is saying you have to like that though.

I've very rarely seen that from the C&C camp, but I'd love to see one.

This is what I don't like man, the fact that you always have to make such a distinction and label people as 'the C&C camp' instead of understanding that it's just another preference and often based on a case by case basis for alot of people.

Like it would be pathetic for me to label you as part of the 'W-D&ILEAPC' or more commonly known as the Watered-Down & Inferior Listening Experience Album Presentation Crew.

[Thor 7,636]

publicist,

But that's a sophism of Hobgoodian size at work here...you elevate album producing to an artform, when it often is dictated by bare necessities like release dates, sessions not yet recorded and what else goes with the frantic schedule of a movie release.

Sure, but none of those issues make it any less of an artform. Every artform has practical concerns surrounding it. Michelangelo had a deadline for his Cistine chapel painting too.

your whole act has become so dogmatic that it now seems that there just CANNOT be a certain piece of unreleased you like or want BECAUSE it was not part of the 'album vision'. And that seems a bit sad, to be honest.

I've never said anything like that. Of course, there might be a cue I like in a film (when I watch said film) that is not on the album, but if the album works as it is, I have no desire to have it inserted there. Perhaps it wouldn't even fit in, no matter how nice it was? The crucial thing is that the ALBUM works, not necessarily the individual track.

Steb,

The problem is to do that justice, one needs to explore and understand the music beyond the album presentation and listening to any 'missing' music just by watching the film is not really a good enough option for reasons I've stated before, simple really.

That's the most bizarre argument I've heard. The only way to analyze, explore or understand how film music works as a filmic tool, is to do so in the context of the film itself.

As much as you might wish they didn't ....they do, nobody is saying you have to like that though.

Excuse me, but who the fuck are you to say how my interests are and how I relate to them? To me, soundtrack listening and film-music-in-context appreciation has nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Maybe they do to you, but to me they don't.

Like it would be pathetic for me to label you as part of the 'W-D&ILEAPC' or more commonly known as the Watered-Down & Inferior Listening Experience Album Presentation Crew.

Yes, it would, because you're then adding a value judgement. There is no value judgement in labelling someone an appreciator of a complete and chronological presentation. So it would be fine if you put me, vice versa, in the 'A&A camp' (arranged and abbreviated).

[steb74 53]

Well, as usual Thor ....you're wrong but that's no suprise is it

However, I haven't got the time anymore to talk about this art with someone like yourself who doesn't understand the first thing about it, sorry man.

Like I've said to you before, I'd love to know if you'd speak to someone this way in person .....well, if I continue this sentence I could get in trouble.

Have fun in that little box known as Thor's world.

Hopefully one day when you grow up, you'll learn how to deal with people and stop being such a little boy, good luck with that.

[TownerFan 4,991]

Wow, I thought this stuff could be found only on the FSM board

I guess Thor wants to spread his gospel here as well

[Thor 7,636]

Well, as usual Thor ....you're wrong but that's no suprise is it

However, I haven't got the time anymore to talk about this art with someone like yourself who doesn't understand the first thing about it, sorry man.

Like I've said to you before, I'd love to know if you'd speak to someone this way in person .....well, if I continue this sentence I could get in trouble.

Have fun in that little box known as Thor's world.

Hopefully one day when you grow up, you'll learn how to deal with people and stop being such a little boy, good luck with that.

Great! Personal attacks....the last refuge of a cornered animal. Get back me to once you're capable of adult, constructive debate.

Wow, I thought this stuff could be found only on the FSM board

I guess Thor wants to spread his gospel here as well

Not really, but I WILL defend myself when I'm attacked unprovoked.