GAME OF THRONES

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

There are probably more plot holes in Season 7.....actually, even the second half of 7x06, then the entire six seasons before it.

 

It's never a good thing when show starts relying on the characters to behave stupidly in order to advance the plot.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Bilbo 3,709]

4 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Some of the themes are OK, but yeah, he really struggles to come up with variations for them. I mean, the Starks theme always sound the same. Everytime, the dreaded cello/violin/whatever string instrument that is for the "sentimental Stark moment!".

 

 

For fans of the show, probably. Outside of the fanbase, I'd say not at all. You could play the main theme of the series to someone who doesn't watch the show and expect that person to know where it comes from. You wouldn't get that with the Rains Of Castamere.

 

Its true, and the best version of the Stark theme was probably season 1 when Robb was crowded king. Everything since could have been tracked from that and it'd be the same.

 

I've heard people busk rains of catamere and to be fair, I don't actually know too many people who don't watch the show at this point. My Mam wouldn't recognise RoC but she wouldn't recognise the main theme anyway!

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

25 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

...you meant "by the end of the series" (right?).

 

Indeed. 

 

25 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

I agree Azor Ahai ain't going to be someone most audience members expect, but Davos?

 

It could be no one, or lots of people, or something other than a person/people, or open to different interpretations (including a publicly proclaimed saviour being different from a less obvious but more fitting one recognised by the audience).

 

Still, if we're picking candidates from among the characters, there are two reasons why Davos would be my first choice.

 

Firstly, it's in-keeping with what I suspect to be one of the major over-arching themes of the story: the decline in the nobility and hereditary power. Davos is (as far as I can remember) the only major recurrent point-of-view character in the story who is not of noble birth. In a sense, the Prince that Was Promised is in fact the end of princes, and Davos is the main representative of the new class.

 

Secondly, the irony of Davos's relationship with Melisandre would be awesome. Given the animosity and mutual antagonism that there has been between those two characters over Davos's scepticism and disgust towards her faith, and her attitude towards his disbelief, I can't think of a better resolution to their story than it turning out that Davos is Melisandre's messiah after all! There's also a scene in Season 6 where Melisandre, looking down at Jon, nonchalantly proclaims "He's the Prince that Was Promised". And who is she talking to? Davos!

 

22 minutes ago, Jay said:

Is there a compelling reason why they didn't bring like, a shit ton of it with them north of the wall?  Or a raven?  Or horses?

 

Eh? They had lots of dragonglass on the mission...

 

I'm not sure if any of them have been educated in ravenry, which is a special skill.

 

No idea about the horses...

[Jay 37,373]

19 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Melisandre specifically told Arya "we shall met again." She also said she'd die in Westeros.

 

So either she'll be back, or it's just more sloppy writing.

 

Of course she'll be back, I was just wondering out loud if she'd be back in this weekend's season finale, or if she won't return until next year

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

1 minute ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

Firstly, it's in-keeping with what I suspect to be one of the major over-arching themes of the story, a decline in the nobility and hereditary power. Davos is (as far as I can remember) the only major recurrent point-of-view character in the story who is not of noble birth. In a sense, the Prince that Was Promised is in fact the end of princes, and Davos is the main representative of the new class.

 

Secondly, the irony of Davos's relationship with Melisandre would be awesome. Given the animosity and mutual antagonism that there has been between those two characters over Davos's scepticism and disgust towards her faith, and her attitude towards his disbelief, I can't think of a better resolution to their story than it turning out that Davos is Melisandre's messiah after all! There's also a scene in Season 6 where Melisandre, looking down at Jon, nonchalantly proclaims "He's the Prince that Was Promised". And who is she talking to? Davos!

 

This is a really solid analysis.

[Jay 37,373]

14 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

It's never a good thing when show starts relying on the characters to behave stupidly in order to advance the plot.

 

I mentioned that earlier, it's the absolute worst thing possible to happen in a show I like.  So frustrating!

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

I mentioned that earlier, it's the absolute worst thing possible to happen in a show I like.  So frustrating!

 

Sometimes a character acting stupidly is OK because it's in character...i.e. Ned in Season 1, Rob in Season's 2 & 3. They make stupid mistakes, that are in character for them, and pay the price. I'm fine with that.

 

But the stupidity that we've seen with this whole "bring back the wight storyline" is pretty unforgivable.  There are a dozen ways I can think of off the top of my head where it completely relies on people to behave stupidly and out of character to work.  In fact the only act of stupidity that seems vaguely in character is Jon trying to commit suicide by going after a horde of wights instead of jumping on the back of that dragon. That's Stark stupidity and completely in character.

[Jay 37,373]

8 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

there are two reasons why Davos would be my first choice.

 

Firstly, it's in-keeping with what I suspect to be one of the major over-arching themes of the story: the decline in the nobility and hereditary power. Davos is (as far as I can remember) the only major recurrent point-of-view character in the story who is not of noble birth. In a sense, the Prince that Was Promised is in fact the end of princes, and Davos is the main representative of the new class.

 

Secondly, the irony of Davos's relationship with Melisandre would be awesome. Given the animosity and mutual antagonism that there has been between those two characters over Davos's scepticism and disgust towards her faith, and her attitude towards his disbelief, I can't think of a better resolution to their story than it turning out that Davos is Melisandre's messiah after all! There's also a scene in Season 6 where Melisandre, looking down at Jon, nonchalantly proclaims "He's the Prince that Was Promised". And who is she talking to? Davos!

 

Woah.  That's brilliant!

[KK 3,307]

39 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Melisandre specifically told Arya "we shall met again." She also said she'd die in Westeros.

 

So either she'll be back, or it's just more sloppy writing.

 

Probably more generic GOT writing inserted for "ominous" effect.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

I'm inclined to agree.

[KK 3,307]

46 minutes ago, Bilbo Skywalker said:

Like I said, I think he has some great themes. Stark, Lannister, royal  Baratheon, Melisandre, Greyjoy, Dany etc. All have memorable themes but he just doesn't know what to do with them once he has them written. 

 

Great is a strong word, and not one I would use. Most of those barely rise above serviceable, but Djawadi applies and reinforces them with consistency. Like BB mentioned above, many of them are quite stagnant and lacking in any variation or development. Dany's material gets the best workout, and actually has some neat development throughout the series, despite the core themes not being that great.

 

Djawadi has some talent, and he's learning, but clearly big leitmotivic fantasy operas are not his forte. And battle music, at least in this world, is his greatest detriment. And since most of this season has been battle after battle, the music largely sounds like shit.

 

His work is much stronger in HBO's Westworld.

[Jay 37,373]

Yea a lot of his Westworld score is pretty cool

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

29 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

Eh? They had lots of dragonglass on the mission...

 

 

No dragon glass arrowheads, which I imagine might have been helpful.

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, you'd think that would have come in handy when chasing after an army of White Walkers.

 

It didn't seem like they were very effective at killing any of them, save for Jon and his Valyrian steel.

[Jay 37,373]

That's why the episode isn't as good as it could have been, their planning for and actions at the Wight capture just make no sense.

 

You'd think during the boat ride from Dragonstone to Eastwatch they could have come up with better ideas, and there would have been horses and better weapons at Eastwatch to bring, etc.  And its a damn pity Bran wasn't involved at all

[KK 3,307]

This "captured wight" is one of the sloppiest Macguffins I've seen in a while.

 

And Bran has been disappointingly useless so far. 

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

6 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

No dragon glass arrowheads, which I imagine might have been helpful.

 

I think they discussed dragonglass arrowheads in a deleted scene, where Jon insisted that they'd better not be too well equipped lest they accidentally end the story before Season 8.

[MedigoScan 324]

one of them clearly had a dragonglass something that killed the bear

thats what my memory is telling me at least

 

[Jay 37,373]

Yes, the company had a couple dragonglass daggers, for sure.

But they should have had a lot more!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,373]

True, it does go against the stealth aspect.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Disco Stu 15,495]

The show is just so inelegant now, even compared to just last season.  It's like it's become more about generating internet memes/gifs than about nuanced character-based storytelling.  I long for the still recent days when we would have fascinating 10 minute long conversations with Jonathan Pryce or whatever.

[Jay 37,373]

They should have given Jim Broadbent more to do.

 

I doubt we'll see him this weekend, but hopefully he can return next year

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

They should have given Jim Broadbent more to do.

 

Yes!  They have one of the most genius actors currently working and did basically nothing with him.

 

If you doubt Broadbent's genius, you need to watch this short film he wrote with Mike Leigh in the 90s.

 

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Just now, BloodBoal said:

 

Yeah. What I find even more ridiculous is the writers acknowledging the memes within the show as it feels like cheap fan service and takes me out of the show (but looking at the reactions to Davos' line, it seems most people feel differently) .

 

Goodness 90% of the conversations this week were meta-meme grossness.  It all felt so forced, like fan fic of what would happen if the Hound met Tormund, for example.

[Jay 37,373]

I loved that line from Davos *shrug*

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,373]

That map is inaccurate; We already covered this on an earlier page.

 

After Hardhome, the Walkers went North, to the 3ER's home, where they killed him and Hodor died, etc.

[KK 3,307]

That's still nothing compared to Jon's travels!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,223]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

That map is inaccurate...

 

It's also meaningless when you bear in mind, for instance, how close to the Wall the White Walkers were in the opening scene of the first episode...

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

39 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

 

Some have said it's because their mission required to be somehow stealthy, and with horses neighing and doing other noises, they could have been spotted. Plus, horses could have been easily frightened by wights.

 

Yeah, I know, these are not entirely convincing arguments, but whatever...

 

Those horses would have frozen before they reached the first marker.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Just now, Nick1066 said:

 

Those horses would have frozen before they reached the first marker.

 

Well considering how Jon and team were seemingly stuck up there for days without freezing and still had the energy to fight an entire army of the undead, I figure it must not be as cold north of the Wall as one would think.

[mstrox 6,651]

40 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Goodness 90% of the conversations this week were meta-meme grossness.  It all felt so forced, like fan fic of what would happen if the Hound met Tormund, for example.

 

Agreed.  I'm a little bit over GoT, TBH.  If the end weren't so near, I would have tossed this on the scrap pile with Walking Dead last year.

 

It's a fun distraction on a Monday night for me, but the majority of the characters lost my interest (outside of weird side people like Tormund, etc).  Especially with its acceleration this season, it's really just a plot machine now.

[Bilbo 3,709]

I too would liked to have seen more of Prof Slughorn this season. 

[Wojo 2,453]

8 minutes ago, mstrox said:

If the end weren't so near, I would have tossed this on the scrap pile with Walking Dead last year.

 

As soon as the zombies charged our heroes on the ice island, I felt the show had now crossed irreversibly into The Walking Dead's territory. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

Even Alan Taylor, the director, said that he hoped that the pace, momentum and sheer spectacle of the episodes would distract people from the gaping plot holes.  It didn't. I've seen the criticism of the current season go beyond sites like this and into mainstream reviews.

 

It's a good thing they did so much character and world building in the early episodes, and earned the audience's goodwill, because they're burning through that capital now.  These characters aren't relatable and likeable because of who they are now and how they're written; it's because of who they were when we got to know them.

 

And it is spectacle, and I admit it's still wildly entertaining and a lot of fun to watch. As maddening as it's been, I can't say I've been bored. It's still better than most of the rest of TV.  But it's just not so special anymore, and nowhere near the show it once was.  

 

(sigh).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,373]

1 minute ago, Nick1066 said:

Even Alan Taylor, the director, said that he hoped that the pace, momentum and sheer spectacle of the episodes would distract people from the gaping plot holes.

 

Source?

 

1 minute ago, Nick1066 said:

 It didn't. I've seen the criticism of the current season go beyond sites like this and into mainstream reviews.

 

It's a good thing they did so much character and world building in the early episodes, and earned the audience's goodwill, because they're burning through that capital now.  These characters aren't relatable and likeable because of who they are now and how they're written; it's because of who they were when we got to know them.

 

And it is spectacle, and I admit it's still wildly entertaining and a lot of fun to watch. As maddening as it's been, I can't say I've been bored. It's still better than most of the rest of TV.  But it's just not so special anymore, and nowhere near the show it once was.  

 

(sigh).

 

I think they have time to right the ship next season, if the writers REALLY try.

 

 

Also, the plot-rush of the recent 2-3 eps will be excused if the payoff this weekend is REALLY good, I think.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,373]

OMG, that's great

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

28 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Source?

 

 

I think they have time to right the ship next season, if the writers REALLY try.

 

 

I'm not sure anyone associated with the show would agree that the ship needs righting. From their POV, it's an incredible success. People are watching in record numbers and interest is at a frantic high. Who cares if a bunch of bloggers, geeks and critics have a problem with how fast a crow can fly or long it take to get from Dragonstone to Winterfell?

[Jay 37,373]

Damn, you're probably right

[Bilbo 3,709]

3 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

I'm not sure anyone associated with the show would agree that the ship needs righting. From their POV, it's an incredible success. People are watching in record numbers and interest is at a frantic high. Who cares if a bunch of bloggers, geeks and critics have a problem with how fast a crow can fly or long it take to get from Dragonstone to Winterfell?

 

Exactly. There's only 7 episodes left. All they have to do is make them and they've already won. Doesn't matter who says what about any of it. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

This is what I found most annoying in Taylor's remarks (from one of BB's links):

 

Quote

Taylor added that he would be more concerned about the ins and outs of the timeline “if the show was struggling” with ratings and its reception.

 

In other words, if GOT still had to earn ratings and an audience, they'd try to put out a better product. But since everyone is hooked anyway, and the show's almost over, it's here's what you're getting so shut up and be grateful.

[Jay 37,373]