What was Jerry Goldsmith's 'Schindler's List'?

[Quintus 5,399]

It is probably John's most aesthetically earnest score, his approach being decidedly sober and somber in both tone and aspiration. He consciously withdrew from the majesty and 'bombast' he is best known for and delivered a very serious score to a very serious film. Very successfully, it's important to stress.

Did the late and very dear Jerry Goldsmith ever create a score with similar motivations, and did he deliver a similar degree of excellence?

Perhaps I'm overlooking an obvious suggestion, but the closest I can come up with is his great Chinatown score. But I think even that doesn't quite match the artistic integrity and scope of Schindler's List - with its historical heft and all that.

And no, it ain't The Boys from Brazil, either

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Russia House, probably.

[tharpdevenport 4]

You mean, what was the one score Jerry did where over half of it was re-arrangements of existing material, by his orchestrators?

[KK 3,307]

You mean, what was the one score Jerry did where over half of it was re-arrangements of existing material, by his orchestrators?

Uhmmm...are you referring to the 3 min of source material in a 65 min. album?

I don't Goldsmith has ever scored something to the degree of subtlety and effectiveness of Schindler's List (his Holocaust like QB VII aren't subtle really) but I guess it would be Russia House for me. To this day, I believe Schindler's List is Williams' greatest achievement and my 2nd most favourite score of all time.

[Thor 7,600]

THE friggin' RUSSIA HOUSE?!? What are you guys smoking?

Goldsmith's towering achievement is unquestionably PLANET OF THE APES. Of course, the film doesn't hold a candle to SCHINDLER'S LIST, but they have so different ambitions and styles, it's hard to compare. But score-wise, it's his pinnacle of creativity.

Edit: Sorry, I think I misunderstood the topic. You're looking more for restraint and subtlety, and POTA is definitely NOT that. I'll have to think a bit.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I think that's a fair comparison.

[Brónach 1,302]

Goldsmith's towering achievement is unquestionably PLANET OF THE APES. Of course, the film doesn't hold a candle to SCHINDLER'S LIST, but they have so different ambitions and styles, it's hard to compare. But score-wise, it's his pinnacle of creativity.

Alien shits on Planet of the Apes!

[luke905 18]

I don't know if you can compare it to Schindler's List (they are very different scores) in its entirety,but Masada,in topical moments such as The Salves, reaches heights of emotional impact and absolute excellence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZcFjHyj9uI

[publicist 4,643]

Perhaps I'm overlooking an obvious suggestion, but the closest I can come up with is his great Chinatown score. But I think even that doesn't quite match the artistic integrity of Schindler's List - with its historical heft and all that.

With the full intention of making more enemies, SCHINDLER'S LIST is far from being a pinnacle of artistic integrity. It has beautiful but obvious melodies, arranged in a rather boring conservative style - which is the only reason so many people develop such a deep affection for it. It's an OSCAR score all over and that is not necessarily a compliment.

[Quintus 5,399]

Btw Pub, Schindler's isn't a favourite of mine, either

But that doesn't mean I don't respect, and at the very least, appreciate its wider effect.

You should try that sometime. Consideration, I mean. It opens up all sorts of options.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Perhaps I'm overlooking an obvious suggestion, but the closest I can come up with is his great Chinatown score. But I think even that doesn't quite match the artistic integrity of Schindler's List - with its historical heft and all that.

With the full intention of making more enemies, SCHINDLER'S LIST is far from being a pinnacle of artistic integrity. It has beautiful but obvious melodies, arranged in a rather boring conservative style - which is the only reason so many people develop such a deep affection for it. It's an OSCAR score all over and that is not necessarily a compliment.

Or maybe you shouldn't make these always negative analysis about this subject(also Private Ryan) I think its not working.

[Quintus 5,399]

Ah, cheers for clarifiying!

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Yep, I edited it, sorry.

[publicist 4,643]

Btw Pub, Schindler's isn't a favourite of mine, either

But that doesn't mean I don't respect, and at the very least, appreciate its wider effect.

You should try that sometime. Consideration, I mean. It opens up all sorts of options.

I quite like parts of it. What i don't like is how many people feel the irresistible urge to equate personal affection to universal greatness. We had that discussion before and it's always damn SCHINDLER that has the burden of bearing the masterpiece medal. It's just not that good just because it's somber and minor-laden (and for an IMPORTANT movie).

ANGELA'S ASHES, for instance, isn't an important (or very good) movie. If it were, people would be much more considerate towards that music.

[KK 3,307]

I don't know if you can compare it to Schindler's List (they are very different scores) in its entirety,but Masada,in topical moments such as The Salves, reaches heights of emotional impact and absolute excellence.

Masada is quite emotionally potent in its prime, but it lacks the subtlety of Schindler's List and I think that's the criteria here.

Btw Pub, Schindler's isn't a favourite of mine, either

But that doesn't mean I don't respect, and at the very least, appreciate its wider effect.

You should try that sometime. Consideration, I mean. It opens up all sorts of options.

I quite like parts of it. What i don't like is how many people feel the irresistible urge to equate personal affection to universal greatness. We had that discussion before and it's always damn SCHINDLER that has the burden of bearing the masterpiece medal. It's just not that good just because it's somber and minor-laden (and for an IMPORTANT movie).

ANGELA'S ASHES, for instance, isn't an important (or very good) movie. If it were, people would be much more considerate towards that music.

I don't know if its that. I think you've already slapped me silly with your "Schindler's List is not art" argument. But frankly, I find it to be Williams' most powerful score. Yes, in terms of composition its simply, but the emotional nuances of the orchestration and the performance (I don't think anyone, including Williams can ever perform the score as it was recorded) make it an extraordinarily powerful score. Its my favourite of the maestro's. Angela's Ashes is a score I love too but it doesn't come close to SL's emotional gravity. Munich comes close in parts, but never does reach that height. But then again, this is all just my opinion

[chuck 155]

Islands In The Stream maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiDiX92m_cw

[chuck 155]

Islands In The Stream maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiDiX92m_cw

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I suppose QBVII is the obvious choice, maybe too obvious, I haven't heard it in a while. Unfortunately, Jerry never seemed to get the rub of the green - I know SL was a score he regretted not being able to do (I guess a major part of that was the fact he was Jewish).

CHINATOWN is great, especially considering it was written and recorded in less than two weeks.

[Hlao-roo 389]

It is probably John's most aesthetically earnest score

I'm not sure how one quantifies "aesthetic earnestness," but Saving Private Ryan would seem to warrant similar discription.

[Quintus 5,399]

You've forgotten all about the shrieking banshees toward the end of Hymn to the Fallen, haven't you?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Why, Mr. Baseball, of course.

[KK 3,307]

I suppose QBVII is the obvious choice, maybe too obvious, I haven't heard it in a while. Unfortunately, Jerry never seemed to get the rub of the green - I know SL was a score he regretted not being able to do (I guess a major part of that was the fact he was Jewish).

QB VII would seem like the first choice to pick, but it still has some of that Goldsmith "majesty" to it. A great score, but not something that would go along with the subtlety of SL.

[indy4 155]

Btw Pub, Schindler's isn't a favourite of mine, either

But that doesn't mean I don't respect, and at the very least, appreciate its wider effect.

You should try that sometime. Consideration, I mean. It opens up all sorts of options.

I quite like parts of it. What i don't like is how many people feel the irresistible urge to equate personal affection to universal greatness. We had that discussion before and it's always damn SCHINDLER that has the burden of bearing the masterpiece medal. It's just not that good just because it's somber and minor-laden (and for an IMPORTANT movie).

I'll be honest, in approach Schindler's List is certainly not the most original work of JW's career. I mean, it's a great, well thought-out score that brilliantly utilizes Williams' old-fashioned stylistic abilities and ventures into some new territory for Williams. But the same can be said for a lot of John Williams' scores.

I might submit Memoirs of a Geisha rather than Schindler's List.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Schindler's List [the score] is an overrated pile of corn syrup.

So then, we define Schindler's List as a film score that oozes melodrama and overbearing emotion, we find that Goldsmith's equivalent is most likely Rudy.

However, if we define Schindler's List as a film score for a weighty film then Goldsmith's equivalent can be found in the likes of Chinatown or Patton.

If you are looking at the content of the music alone, regardless of the picture it accompanies, and therefore you (like an insane fool) define Schindler's List as music that is serious and artistic in nature then Goldsmith's equivalent can be found in the likes of Planet of the Apes, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Basic Instinct, and Alien.

With the exception of Rudy, I would say every score I mentioned handily exceeds Schindler's List. Mainly because they're like LSD taken with fine wine whilst Schindler's List is like a nice cup of pure high fructose corn syrup.

The former (the Goldsmith works) give you an other worldly, perspective shattering, exploratory journey through sound. The latter (Schindler's List) is like a highly processed, mechanically perfected formula concocted by geniuses in a lab to exploit the basic human emotion of sadness and beat you over the head with it.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I thought Spielberg said the only people who could write music for Schindler's List were all dead.

[Brónach 1,302]

While the film is one of my favourites, I've never been able to get into the score.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

I thought Spielberg said the only people who could write music for Schindler's List were all dead.

It's sort of like your friend who's only ever been with one girl telling you his wife is the best woman in the world isn't it?

[KK 3,307]

Wow, I did not know I was in the minority here with my respect for Schindler's List. But I guess I would be the only one who would rate it as my favourite Williams score. I honestly think no other film composer has swept me off emotionally as JW did SL and I don't think the maestro himself can master that level of emotional gravity.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Schindler's List is an unsatisfying listen for me, because I'm reminded of what the score could have been, especially when I listen to Auschwitz Birkenau (highlight of the score).

I imagine how much better it could have been if the humanity, the emotion, and the sadness broke through a soundscape more along the lines of something Penderecki would write, versus having every other 2 seconds be another forced pull at the heart strings with music more appropriate for a romantic albeit tragic love story. There was huge opportunity to construct a beautiful, haunting, terrifying work of art forged out of contrasts. Instead it's stuck in one gear for 90% of the time.

It's not *that* bad. It's a 3 out of 5 star score. But not much more.

[KK 3,307]

Why do you guys assume something atonal like Penderecki would have been right for the film? Thats not what the film was going for, nor is it what the film is about. Auschwitz Birkenau is a haunting cue, but the key to Schindler's List is the heart-breaking beauty and its simplicity. It was perfect for the film and in a way that's hard to explain is VERY emotionally engaging. Williams cracked onto to the perfect set of harmonic progressions and orchestrations that really get to you. It compliments the film in such a way that will affect the audience. Schindler's List isn't a film thats supposed be some theoretical, over-critical statement about the Holocaust. While it has its fair share of brutality and horror, its supposed to make us remember the Holocaust for what it was. And in that sense, no composer could have done a better job. I don't think Williams could ever have the kind of mastery over the audience's emotions as shown in Schindler's List. A powerful piece of work.

[Brónach 1,302]

I've always found more moving the dinosaur music for that other film. Subject matter bias I suppose.

I imagine how much better it could have been if the humanity, the emotion, and the sadness broke through a soundscape more along the lines of something Penderecki would write, versus having every other 2 seconds be another forced pull at the heart strings with music more appropriate for a romantic albeit tragic love story. There was huge opportunity to construct a beautiful, haunting, terrifying work of art forged out of contrasts. Instead it's stuck in one gear for 90% of the time.

Yeah! Schindler's List should sound like War of the Worlds!

[chuck 155]

How about Papillon? I think it's comparable to SL.

[chuck 155]

How about Papillon? I think it's comparable to SL.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Why do you guys assume something atonal like Penderecki would have been right for the film? Thats not what the film was going for, nor is it what the film is about. Auschwitz Birkenau is a haunting cue, but the key to Schindler's List is the heart-breaking beauty and its simplicity. It was perfect for the film and in a way that's hard to explain is VERY emotionally engaging. Williams cracked onto to the perfect set of harmonic progressions and orchestrations that really get to you. It compliments the film in such a way that will affect the audience. Schindler's List isn't a film thats supposed be some theoretical, over-critical statement about the Holocaust. While it has its fair share of brutality and horror, its supposed to make us remember the Holocaust for what it was. And in that sense, no composer could have done a better job. I don't think Williams could ever have the kind of mastery over the audience's emotions as shown in Schindler's List. A powerful piece of work.

OK fine. Let's say Schindler's List is a score that is supposed to touch on the sensitive humanity, tear-jerking, sad side of the holocaust.

Even if the point of the film and score was to be human, tear-jerker, and sad, John Williams still did not deliver.

Williams's failure to integrate the score with contrasting elements/structure made the "humanity" and "tear-jerking" and "sad" qualities of the score ordinary/common/everyday instead of special and meaningful. Because they were present wall-to-wall scene-to-scene track-to-track. The end result is something stagnant rather than alive and in motion.

So what we end up with is something cheesy and dull.

[steb74 53]

:lol:

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Hey, if it helps you cry your miserable self off to sleep at night, more power to you. I knew many teen girls who did the same thing with "My Heart Will Go On."

Me? When I listen to this score, I don't put syrup on my pancakes and I skip the sugar in my coffee. Schindler's List Composed by John Williams is sugar enough.

I imagine if I listened to it before a doctor's visit I'd be diagnosed with the diabeetus.

[KK 3,307]

Why do you guys assume something atonal like Penderecki would have been right for the film? Thats not what the film was going for, nor is it what the film is about. Auschwitz Birkenau is a haunting cue, but the key to Schindler's List is the heart-breaking beauty and its simplicity. It was perfect for the film and in a way that's hard to explain is VERY emotionally engaging. Williams cracked onto to the perfect set of harmonic progressions and orchestrations that really get to you. It compliments the film in such a way that will affect the audience. Schindler's List isn't a film thats supposed be some theoretical, over-critical statement about the Holocaust. While it has its fair share of brutality and horror, its supposed to make us remember the Holocaust for what it was. And in that sense, no composer could have done a better job. I don't think Williams could ever have the kind of mastery over the audience's emotions as shown in Schindler's List. A powerful piece of work.

OK fine. Let's say Schindler's List is a score that is supposed to touch on the sensitive humanity, tear-jerking, sad side of the holocaust.

Even if the point of the film and score was to be human, tear-jerker, and sad, John Williams still did not deliver.

Williams's failure to integrate the score with contrasting elements/structure made the "humanity" and "tear-jerking" and "sad" qualities of the score ordinary/common/everyday instead of special and meaningful. Because they were present wall-to-wall scene-to-scene track-to-track. The end result is something stagnant rather than alive and in motion.

So what we end up with is something cheesy and dull.

I disagree. There are many varying qualities in Schindler's List. Yes there is a lot of tear jerking moments in the score and while they define the film, the score is definitely not just that. What about the stark workman like music for the Jewish? Listen to Schindler's Workforce and Jewish Town. Or the single moment where there is the slightest hint of heroism in Making the List? Or to go on further, the hauntingly disturbing material in Auschwitz Birkeneau? Williams infuses as much contrasting elements as he could with this film, or so I see it.

[Brónach 1,302]

He should have thrown in something like Visitor in San Diego. It's the only way to be sure.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Yeah! Schindler's List should sound like War of the Worlds!

Schindler's List is leagues ahead of that drivel.

[Brónach 1,302]

Ok now I can't take your posts in this thread seriously.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Oh no! That hurts, whatever your user name was.

That is SO tragic, I should go listen to Schindler's List to help me weep it out.

[Brónach 1,302]

I'd prefer E.T. for those matters.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,070]

Heartbeeps does it for me.

[KK 3,307]

War of the Worlds is dense stuff that I can appreciate but not enjoy. Schindler's List is leagues ahead of it, and I find it a stimulating score of great depth; not just a score for depressed people with low self-esteem.

[Incanus 5,723]

I can't claim to have listened to even half of Jerry Goldsmith's output but what would be nearest to Schindler's List among the scores that I have heard might be Papillon or Islands in the Stream. Both contain similar warm humanistic approach although they are more individual stories and about individual psychology and situations than a bit wider scope of Schindler's List.

[Quintus 5,399]

Hey, if it helps you cry your miserable self off to sleep at night, more power to you. I knew many teen girls who did the same thing with "My Heart Will Go On."

Me? When I listen to this score, I don't put syrup on my pancakes and I skip the sugar in my coffee. Schindler's List Composed by John Williams is sugar enough.

I imagine if I listened to it before a doctor's visit I'd be diagnosed with the diabeetus.

Says the guy who has constantly raved about the War Horse score...

A score which to some is the musical equivalent of five chocolate eclairs and a victoria sponge, drizzled in raspberry sauce.

[Thor 7,600]

Wow, I did not know I was in the minority here with my respect for Schindler's List. But I guess I would be the only one who would rate it as my favourite Williams score. I honestly think no other film composer has swept me off emotionally as JW did SL and I don't think the maestro himself can master that level of emotional gravity.

I'm with ya! When people ask me what I think is the "best" film of all time, I usually respond with SCHINDLER. It's just a rare instance of pure perfection, IMO. And that extends to the music as well. It's not often that I play the soundtrack, but that's because I have to be so emotionally prepared for it.....and it's actually less to do with the Holocaust associations (I tend to separate myself from the movie when I listen to soundtrack), and more to do with the harrowing, but beautiful quality of the music itself.

'Blumenkohl' timestamp='1328421636' post='783843']

OK fine. Let's say Schindler's List is a score that is supposed to touch on the sensitive humanity, tear-jerking, sad side of the holocaust.

I think you've misunderstood what it's about. It's not about 'tear-jerking', it's a film about those who actually made it (the people on his list) against a backdrop of pure horror. Williams' music reflects that. This is one of Spielberg's trademark thematic traits.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Spielberg films are about winners, not losers!

[publicist 4,643]

Why do you guys assume something atonal like Penderecki would have been right for the film? Thats not what the film was going for, nor is it what the film is about. Auschwitz Birkenau is a haunting cue, but the key to Schindler's List is the heart-breaking beauty and its simplicity. It was perfect for the film and in a way that's hard to explain is VERY emotionally engaging.

I repeat, aesthetically it is a very 'safe' score, an OSCAR score with easily digestible neo-romantic stylings and a violin added on top for ye olde jewish flavour. I found it much too Delerue-y for its subject back in 1993 and cannot divorce it from the film it was made for and find the tea-room sadness of it a bit too on the nose. But i will not try to f..k you over with this, you love it as you should.

As for JG, he may not have written for an IMPORTANT movie like SL, certainly not late in his career, but i'm sure he never lacked the gravitas to write something like SL. Just listen to 'DEATH OF A 1000 CUTS' from SAND PEBBLES...

I'm with ya! When people ask me what I think is the "best" film of all time, I usually respond with SCHINDLER.

You are Spielberg's bitch!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hey look! a German who doesn't like a film about the Holocaust!