[4:11-5:22] of The Siege of Gondor

[King Mark 3,631]

I like the films because of the music, not the other way around. Only Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are great films by themselves

Williams body of work on the SW Prequels trumps the LotR scores , even though I don't care for the films so much

[Bellosh 3,419]

Yes it should!

Maybe I should open a thread. "Chaac comments the battle of the Pelennor Field and reminds us of animal behavior in battle and pre-Medieval and Medieval combat tactics."

As long as I can open the thread, "Epic Battle on Endor Leaves 1 killed, Many Others Slightly Injured"

[gkgyver 1,645]

I don't hate these scores , I can recognize there's a few great highlights but overall very overrated by people that have a strong emotional attachment to the films themselves.

So the music connects with the films.

Which isn't what film music is supposed to do. At all.

[Bellosh 3,419]

I like the films because of the music, not the other way around. Only Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back are great films by themselves

That's actually how I am with Star Wars, and if it's any help, ESB is in my top 5 scores of all time.

#kingmarksleepsbetteratnight ??

[Brónach 1,302]

Yes it should!

Maybe I should open a thread. "Chaac comments the battle of the Pelennor Field and reminds us of animal behavior in battle and pre-Medieval and Medieval combat tactics."

As long as I can open the thread, "Epic Battle on Endor Leaves 1 killed, Many Others Slightly Injured"

You can, I don't like ROTJ.

There are battles in Star Wars where I can't make use of any real life logic anyway. Something like a X-Wing, for example, would never be used in the real world. (Sorry, BSG fans.)

[Jay 37,373]

Anyways the Williams equivalent of this type of "epic choir music" is in Anakin's Dark Deeds, which is a superior composition of course

The Seige Of Gondor >>> Anakin's Dark Deeds

[Brónach 1,302]

NO!

[Jay 37,373]

Especially on a Williams board where the guy has thousands of individual score moments that are more amazing than this

In YOUR OPINION they are greater

It doesn't seem like this has been strictly a JW board for years now.

It's not. People should be encouraged to make threads and discuss music by any composer they desire at JWFan. Normally they are not invaded by long-term posters shitting on their threads, this is an exception.

[Bellosh 3,419]

Yes it should!

Maybe I should open a thread. "Chaac comments the battle of the Pelennor Field and reminds us of animal behavior in battle and pre-Medieval and Medieval combat tactics."

As long as I can open the thread, "Epic Battle on Endor Leaves 1 killed, Many Others Slightly Injured"

You can, I don't like ROTJ.

There are battles in Star Wars where I can't make use of any real life logic anyway. Something like a X-Wing, for example, would never be used in the real world. (Sorry, BSG fans.)

This is a good point.

Oh and I edited my ORIGINAL post, I was being serious.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Williams body of work on the SW Prequels trumps the LotR scores

Not even close. On the level of thematic continuity alone, the prequels aren't even in the same league.

There is so much boring, aimless filler stuff in those prequel things, that the thought of listening to any of them in one session makes my stomach turn.

There is a thematic connection in LOTR roughly about every 15 seconds, the prequels numb me out of my mind with their overcooked action music, and their new themes that don't connect at all with the existing ones.

Is LOTR overscored? In some parts, yes. But at least the lesser parts aren't as offensive as some of the INTENSELY ANNOYING cues in the prequels. Especially in AotC, which ranks about two levels below Two Towers in terms of originality and listening pleasure (which AotC offers very little of anyway).

[Brónach 1,302]

This is kinda famous among film music fans:

[media=]

Yes it should!

Maybe I should open a thread. "Chaac comments the battle of the Pelennor Field and reminds us of animal behavior in battle and pre-Medieval and Medieval combat tactics."

As long as I can open the thread, "Epic Battle on Endor Leaves 1 killed, Many Others Slightly Injured"

You can, I don't like ROTJ.

There are battles in Star Wars where I can't make use of any real life logic anyway. Something like a X-Wing, for example, would never be used in the real world. (Sorry, BSG fans.)

This is a good point.

Oh and I edited my ORIGINAL post, I was being serious.

Also a Death Star is unnecesary for destroying planets. So I see SW as a sort of fantasy paralell reality where it somehow makes sense.

However in LOTR the attempts at battles were dumbed down to Pirates of the Caribbean levels. In the climatic battle of Middle Earth there's almost no effort to make it look like a battle.

[Bellosh 3,419]

Williams body of work on the SW Prequels trumps the LotR scores , even though I don't care for the films so much

what is this i dont even.

[Jay 37,373]

However in LOTR the attempts at battles were dumbed down to Pirates of the Caribbean levels. In the climatic battle of Middle Earth there's almost no effort to make it look like a battle.

You know all 3 LOTR films were made before the first POTC movie, right?

[Brónach 1,302]

Yes.

[Bellosh 3,419]

However in LOTR the attempts at battles were dumbed down to Pirates of the Caribbean levels. In the climatic battle of Middle Earth there's almost no effort to make it look like a battle.

I disagree. When Rohan arrives, that's pretty fucking epic. POTC comparison is almost insulting.

I guess I just associate the term epic due to the type of participants/world/mythology it's in.

Me and my friends had a conversation about if you could fight in any battle (fictional or non-fictional), my answer was always Helms Deep. To try and survive the night against those wicked beings would be something.

[Brónach 1,302]

I disagree. When Rohan arrives, that's pretty fucking epic. Not fair for a POTC comparison.

Yes. I never understood the reaction of the orcs though. To better conserve troops they should have retreated, as they don't have the kind of peakes used to deflect that cavalry. I would have made them retreat to the center, so they don't get flaked, and have the Haradrim advance through the sides, for several reasons.

What would have happened next is that the Eorlingas would have been completely annihilated if they didn't run fast enough. The main use of elephants in battle is to scare cavalry away, as the horses refuse to charge. Now picture a Mûmakil...

And these moves that Éowyn does? You can't do that to an elephant, much less to one of these things. And they don't run amok either because the rider uses a hammer and a club to kill the beast if it's scared and charges against its own troops.

The way to deal with these things would have been artillery and skirmishers on foot with projectile weapons, as well as fire.

[King Mark 3,631]

These type of epic CGI battles have been copy/pasted in so many medieval films (Narnia,Snow White and the Huntsman,Robin Hood to name a few) that they don't have any effect on me anymore

[Bellosh 3,419]

I disagree. When Rohan arrives, that's pretty fucking epic. Not fair for a POTC comparison.

Yes. I never understood the reaction of the orcs though. To better conserve troops they should have retreated, as they don't have the kind of peakes used to deflect that cavalry. I would have made them retreat to the center, so they don't get flaked, and have the Haradrim advance through the sides, for several reasons.

What would have happened next is that the Eorlingas would have been completely annihilated if they didn't run fast enough. The main use of elephants in battle is to scare cavalry away, as the horses refuse to charge. Now picture a Mûmakil...

And these moves that Éowyn does? You can't do that to an elephant, much less to one of these things. And they don't run amok either because the rider uses a hammer and a club to kill the beast if it's scared and charges against its own troops.

The way to deal with these things would have been artillery and skirmishers on foot with projectile weapons, as well as as fire.

love it.

[Ricard 2,245]

I don't hate these scores , I can recognize there's a few great highlights but overall very overrated by people that have a strong emotional attachment to the films themselves.

THIS.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I wish JW had had the time, inclination or obssesion for detailed Wagnerian writing to compose for LOTR.

Jesus Christ, by all that is good and decent, no!

He neither has the inclination, nor the obsession. He doesn't return to his earlier style, which people expected him to do for years (not anymore I hope), so he sure as hell wouldn't throw himself in the middle of Tolkien mythology and Wagner music for three years straight. And most certainly not in the way Shore has.

"You can't know that!"

Yes I can, and you do as well.

[Bellosh 3,419]

These type of epic CGI battles have been copy/pasted in so many medieval films (Narnia,Snow White and the Huntsman,Robin Hood to name a few) that they don't have any effect on me anymore

Not sure how else they could have done it, though.

[Brónach 1,302]

I wish JW had had the time, inclination or obssesion for detailed Wagnerian writing to compose for LOTR.

Jesus Christ, by all that is good and decent, no!

He neither has the inclination, nor the obsession. He doesn't return to his earlier style, which people expected him to do for years (not anymore I hope), so he sure as hell wouldn't throw himself in the middle of Tolkien mythology and Wagner music for three years straight. And most certainly not in the way Shore has.

"You can't know that!"

Yes I can, and you do as well.

Older style, what older style? I don't see any sudden change in his music. It's gradual.

He wouldn't have gone Wagnerian. He would have gone JW, and JW, man, can sound dark, dark, really dark. I say "detail" as in havinf so many leitmotifs and lyrics in Middle-Earth languages and such.

Of course I don't think he ever had an interest on it. Goldsmith would have loved it, though. Goldsmith would ruled it.

These type of epic CGI battles have been copy/pasted in so many medieval films (Narnia,Snow White and the Huntsman,Robin Hood to name a few) that they don't have any effect on me anymore

Not sure how else they could have done it, though.

What about using lots of extras. That tends to look pretty awesome.

[King Mark 3,631]

He neither has the inclination, nor the obsession. He doesn't return to his earlier style, which people expected him to do for years (not anymore I hope), so he sure as hell wouldn't throw himself in the middle of Tolkien mythology and Wagner music for three years straight. And most certainly not in the way Shore has.

Williams wouldn't have needed 3 years to write something better

What about using lots of extras. That tends to look pretty awesome.

I watched The Ten Commandments on TV in HD recently and noted how awesome it looked compared to movies we see nowadays where there has to be huge crowds

[Brónach 1,302]

Fuck yeah!

This too!

This is one of those moments when you realize you're totally fucked.

And this!

And this!

[Bellosh 3,419]

I wish JW had had the time, inclination or obssesion for detailed Wagnerian writing to compose for LOTR.

Jesus Christ, by all that is good and decent, no!

He neither has the inclination, nor the obsession. He doesn't return to his earlier style, which people expected him to do for years (not anymore I hope), so he sure as hell wouldn't throw himself in the middle of Tolkien mythology and Wagner music for three years straight. And most certainly not in the way Shore has.

"You can't know that!"

Yes I can, and you do as well.

Older style, what older style? I don't see any sudden change in his music. It's gradual.

He wouldn't have gone Wagnerian. He would have gone JW, and JW, man, can sound dark, dark, really dark. I say "detail" as in havinf so many leitmotifs and lyrics in Middle-Earth languages and such.

Of course I don't think he ever had an interest on it. Goldsmith would have loved it, though. Goldsmith would ruled it.

These type of epic CGI battles have been copy/pasted in so many medieval films (Narnia,Snow White and the Huntsman,Robin Hood to name a few) that they don't have any effect on me anymore

Not sure how else they could have done it, though.

What about using lots of extras. That tends to look pretty awesome.

well obviously, but what about 'dem trolls and all the rest of it, IMO, LOTR was made at a perfect time because with how shit looks nowadays, it still maintains some INTEGRITY with the CGI.

They would've definitely gone overboard if they were made now.

and King Mark, you can't get much better than they are now, and even if JW did do it, you would like it anyways, so basically you just hate Shore and the scores. amiright?

[Brónach 1,302]

You mean they didn't go overboard back then? As in, shield-board?

What about killing yourself by a) charging down the slope in horses and b) mentally controlling you horses so they impale themselves in enemy pikes.

What about the green things eliminating an absurdly oversized army (four times more than in the book) and ruining the ending of the climatic battle of Middle Earth?

What about the oversized army making siege to a fortress without even camping arounf it. No, just stand there on foot. All 200.000 of you.

[King Mark 3,631]

I just don't think the themes and motifs in LotR are especially good, so it's doesn't matter the level of intricacy in which they are woven into the underscore. The complete FotR recordings is some of the most boring music I've ever listened to

I can admit when Williams doesn't write great themes (Tintin and Memoirs of a Geisha come to mind) so I don't see why I can't have this opinion about LotR

[indy4 155]

I wish JW had had the time, inclination or obssesion for detailed Wagnerian writing to compose for LOTR.

Jesus Christ, by all that is good and decent, no!

He neither has the inclination, nor the obsession. He doesn't return to his earlier style, which people expected him to do for years (not anymore I hope), so he sure as hell wouldn't throw himself in the middle of Tolkien mythology and Wagner music for three years straight. And most certainly not in the way Shore has.

Williams' connection with Wagner has only strengthened since Star Wars, as far as the use of the leitmotif goes. The thematic connections are only getting more complex as JW gets older, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say he would never "throw himself in the middle of Wagner music."

[Wojo 2,453]

I just don't think the themes and motifs in LotR are especially good, so it's doesn't matter the level of intricacy in which they are woven into the underscore. The complete FotR recordings is some of the most boring music I've ever listened to

[indy4 155]

It does take a certain state of mind/discipline to get through the entire score, but it's a very rewarding listen.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I don't hate these scores , I can recognize there's a few great highlights but overall very overrated by people that have a strong emotional attachment to the films themselves.

Thank you KM for putting some sparkling action to this otherwise boring worship festival.

[Brónach 1,302]

I have way more attachment to the music than the films.

[Jay 37,373]

Me too (though i love the films too)

[King Mark 3,631]

I like the LotR films about to Avatar level. Pretty good epic spectacle but not some of my all time favorite movies

Like I don't have LotR fan sites bookmarked into my browser

[Brónach 1,302]

LOTR music >> LOTR films >>>>>> Avatar

[Romão 2,274]

I don't particularly like the movies nor the the scores. They both fit in the "could have been worse, should've been better" category

[KK 3,307]

Wow...this thread is overflowing with so much LotR hate right now....its almost laughable.

I've already expressed my love for the Lord of the Rings films in the Hobbit thread and I've already explained why I think they're some of the greatest films made (and my favourite); quite recently actually. So I'm not going to ramble on about their cinematic merits and achievements (and why its a million times better than Avatar) or pick on anyone.

The instance pointed in here was a very powerful moment in film, to hear the choir chanting the harmonies of the Nazgul thematic material in all its glory resonates with you on screen as the Nazgul sweep down upon its victims. It's not the greatest moment in the film or trilogy, but it is a fantastic moment on film. I also think The Siege of Gondor is some of the most brilliant action pieces in modern film music history; then again I also think The Return of the King is one of the most brilliant scores of all time (and my favourite of all time)...oops....sorry for having an opinion.

The level of thought put into these scores is absolutely phenomenal and it has yet to be rivalled by other film composers of the modern age. This score is the definite example of pasting a film onto sheet music. Shore brilliantly represents each character, concept, location, etc. with often bold and memorable themes (although there is a significant amount of subtle ones too) used and developed to such an extent that has rarely been witnessed in film music.

What I'm doing here by the way folks is not "blind worship", its me explaining why I think these scores rock. Thank you very much.

And picking on a someone because he mentioned he liked a certain cue is ridiculous. Grow up.

[indy4 155]

They're some of my favorite films. Unquestionably better than Avatar.

[Wojo 2,453]

I really feel bad for John Williams sometimes.

I feel bad he never wrote anything on par with LOTR.

Poor guy.

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah whatever

[Incanus 5,716]

That particular section mentioned in the first post is rather visceral in the film scoring climate of the 2000's. As K.K. mentioned it is operatic in the way it reflects the story musically, the score almost becoming the Nazgûl in that moment, the choral chanting rising to screaming pitch like the voices of the Ringwraiths. As for the scores, they are without a doubt to me and I think it should be safe to say in general terms some of the most powerful film music ever composed.

Shore did something quite unprecendented with this music in terms of depth and layers when films scores are concerned. Whether you like his approach or musical voice is another matter of course but you can't deny its influence and effect on film music.

I also find it very funny when the talk turns to something like LotR or Zimmer's scores, but it really can be just some popular non-Williams score, and people with contrary opinions, usually with quite vehement passion, profess their love of Williams and drop comparisons with universally loved sacred scores like ESB or Raiders of the Lost Ark or E.T. or even Harry Potter. What can you say when someone presents you with an argument on taste and offers a well loved classic like the Williams scores above as proof. Often you love both the non-Williams score and the classic Williams' score but it not like you would want to compare them in any absolute way. You just like both. This inability to choose an absolute favourite is then taken as some kind of proof of inferiority of this non-Williams score and the "opposition" walks away with a satisfied grin. Their "belief" has just been reaffirmed.

Also there is always feel when someone continually harries a thread discussing something this poster doesn't obviously like, that he is trying to convert them or wake them up from believing in "a scam" of something he thinks as false or untrue. What distubs people when a few other people say they like something he doesn't? Is this the feeling of being outside this circle? Or is it to him boring when the discussion is not an argument (one of the people I know believes this)? Or is it this feeling frustration of seeing others being duped by this thing, be it music or any kind of art? In the matters of taste this is always funny because you can't usually reason people out of liking or disliking things, whatever the reason for that like may be. I would prefer offering comments and insights on things, especially about art in any form, to make people rethink, not necessarily "convert" from their "belief" but to understand alternate ways of seeing things. But often we are all rather one eyed aren't we?

[Ricard 2,245]

Wow...this thread is overflowing with so much LotR hate right now....its almost laughable.

I think it's exactly the opposite.

[Incanus 5,716]

Wow...this thread is overflowing with so much LotR hate right now....its almost laughable.

I think it's exactly the opposite.

Well this thread is almost overflowing with so much LotR love right now...it's good.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

Nuff said.

[Ricard 2,245]

Wow...this thread is overflowing with so much LotR hate right now....its almost laughable.

I think it's exactly the opposite.

Well this thread is almost overflowing with so much LotR love right now...

It was already like that before K.K.'s post and yours.

[Incanus 5,716]

You should see Doug Adams' blog. It is sickeningly and uniformly praising of the music of LotR. Or perhaps you shouldn't.

I do like to see a bit differing views that are present here. As fun as concensus is a bit of discussion from the other point of view is refreshing.

[Quintus 5,399]

Lol, KM the fanboy threw his toys out of the pram again because someone dared to like a score more than some of his precious Williams works, boo hoo.

LotR is possibly the greatest achievement in all of film music history.

[Incanus 5,716]

Lol, KM the fanboy threw his toys out of the pram again because someone dared to like a score more than some of his precious Williams works, boo hoo.

LotR is possibly the greatest achievement in all of film music history.

You said it perhaps more succintly than I did, and with a colorful analogy to boot.

[Quintus 5,399]

And I've just read Chaac's words on the quality of the battle itself. Lol, the dude just stooped to a whole new level of idiocy in my eyes.