[4:11-5:22] of The Siege of Gondor

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[publicist 4,643]

Hmmm...i always found Shore's counterpoint barely above John Barry-level. Which is no problem in the more melodic and emotive set pieces, but as soon as those action pieces with their ever-monotonous rhythms crop up, i hit FORWARD.

[Quintus 5,399]

His action writing is definitely his Achilles heal. But the LotR action stuff is still head and shoulders above 90% of what's been written for movies in the last fifteen years.

[publicist 4,643]

What is a back-handed compliment if there ever was one.

[Incanus 5,716]

His action writing is definitely his Achilles heal. But the LotR action stuff is still head and shoulders above 90% of what's been written for movies in the last fifteen years.

But when you think the action writing of this score in relation to his previous scores in his career it is simply staggeringly good and unexpected. Actually these scores are the highest point of his career in every respect really. They have besides intellectual depth also strong emotional resonance as well.

What I admire in these scores is the constant flow of material, the thematic ideas building from one another and how they play interlaced and in conjunction, even the apparently repetetive rhythms of the action pieces carrying thematic significance. And it doesn't feel cluttered at all to me, just well and intricately constructed.

I do admit that some elements like long drawn out chords for either drama or tension do grate a bit in their uneventfulness but those are luckily in my opinion far and wide apart.

I was really skeptical about Shore's involvement with these films at first but the scores won me over little by little until I was completely convinced of their greatness. I if anyone was highly critical and had certain expectations for the music of my favourite novel but Shore succeeded to my eternal amazement beyond those. I am really happy about this since the music stands high in the junction of my three passions, music, film and literature, combining elements from all into a compelling whole.

[Quintus 5,399]

What is a back-handed compliment if there ever was one.

Nah, not true. It's not for everyone, but Shore's action music is never anything less than classy piece of arse, in the eyes of the more discerning score pervert.

His action writing is definitely his Achilles heal. But the LotR action stuff is still head and shoulders above 90% of what's been written for movies in the last fifteen years.

But when you think the action writing of this score in relation to his previous scores in his career it is simply staggeringly good and unexpected. Actually these scores are the highest point of his career in every respect really.

Absolutely. And frankly, portions of that LotR action writing are sublime in their own right.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Read my response to Incanus above.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

But I can't do that, since sections of the score I do find to be dull and monotonous. These are massive scores, after all.

I skip moments here and there in the Star Wars trilogy, too.

[King Mark 3,631]

Well, time to leave this LotR fanboy gathering

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

Well, time to leave this LotR fanboy gathering

Well it isn't a "crucify LotR" thread after all.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, time to leave this LotR fanboy gathering

You invited yourself in anyway. Close the door on your way out, bye.

[Incanus 5,716]

The Prophet and Supreme Priest Master of JWFan has left this thread where his words of wisdom rang to heathen ears and infidel minds.

But okay I admit it John Williams is great too.

One particular aspect I like a lot about Shore's music for LotR is the use of the avant garde and modern orchestral techniques he often employs for the most ferocious action set pieces. They are often outlandish but work brilliantly in musical story telling, the film or the novel often giving the music easily acceptable frame of reference when otherwise if the composition had been done for concert hall I might have balked it. This way the music also introduces you to such devices and effects and makes you perhaps more receptive of them in the future, no matter the source, which I think is a great thing. His musical signature is so unique, it was refreshing to hear it employed in Tolkien's tale and it really just fit the story told on screen so well, capturing the light and the dark, the colours, drama and grandeur with deft skill. I can't quite explain in exact words but Shore's musical sound just fits the Middle Earth I imagined, being almost primordial in part, sounding ancient and earthy but at the same time also mystical and exotic. Whether it is the composer's voice or intentionally achieved sound, the slightly coarser edge, than say Williams' music, has serves the story, time and place well and sets it apart from most other "Hollywood" sounding scores. These were elements that attracted me to the music from the first listen but that understanding and fascination deepened through the years.

[tannhauser 101]

What I like about Shore's scores is the narrative quality, the amazing structure and wide arc of the trilogy's music as a whole. I tend not to listen to small isolated chunks very often, because I like to experience it in no smaller blocks than at least one film's complete recordings. Of course there are lots of outstanding highlights, truly stunning musical moments. But it's the concept of being able to relive the film through a listen to the score that keeps me endlessly interested in this music.

In fact, I find the experience of listening to the complete score while reading Doug's commentary, more gratifying and exciting, even from a story point of view, than watching the films themselves.

[Brónach 1,302]

I like The Return of the King, specially the whole last part (a big part of the success of these scenes), but I enjoy more the previous two scores, and I find other classic scores more accomplished such as Ben Hur which is really beautiful I think.

And I've just read Chaac's words on the quality of the battle itself. Lol, the dude just stooped to a whole new level of idiocy in my eyes.

I'm not not sure if it's my (I admit it) poor way of putting things into words, or all I read about warfare was bullshit. Anyway, it seems I loose one way or another because somebody decided it. I'm sorry I don't live up to some sort of messageboard standard.

[Incanus 5,716]

What I like about Shore's scores is the narrative quality, the amazing structure and wide arc of the trilogy's music as a whole. I tend not to listen to small isolated chunks very often, because I like to experience it in no smaller blocks than at least one film's complete recordings. Of course there are lots of outstanding highlights, truly stunning musical moments. But it's the concept of being able to relive the film through a listen to the score that keeps me endlessly interested in this music.

In fact, I find the experience of listening to the complete score while reading Doug's commentary, more gratifying and exciting, even from a story point of view, than watching the films themselves.

I have to say I also prefer to listen these scores in full and not in small snippets or highlights since I feel those do not do them justice as a whole. I remembering reading The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films while listening to the music when the book first came out but usually I prefer to listen to one whole complete score on its own, in a darkened room with very little distractions if possible and just enjoy the musical journey. If only it was possible more often.

[tannhauser 101]

Sounds awesome!

After listening to the CR's I just can't go back to the OST's at all. If I have less time I'd rather listen to one disc of the CR's than an OST album.

However I do enjoy listening to the Symphony, mainly because I enjoy Wicki's interpretation of the music.

[Quintus 5,399]

And I've just read Chaac's words on the quality of the battle itself. Lol, the dude just stooped to a whole new level of idiocy in my eyes.

I'm not not sure if it's my (I admit it) poor way of putting things into words, or all I read about warfare was bullshit.

Anyway, it seems I loose one way or another because somebody decided it. I'm sorry I don't live up to some sort of messageboard standard.

You're a pathetic and embarrassing example of everything that's wrong in this world. Hang your head in shame and maybe, just maybe, you can come in from the cold, after you have had time to think about your actions.

[Ricard 2,245]

And I've just read Chaac's words on the quality of the battle itself. Lol, the dude just stooped to a whole new level of idiocy in my eyes.

I'm not not sure if it's my (I admit it) poor way of putting things into words, or all I read about warfare was bullshit.

Anyway, it seems I loose one way or another because somebody decided it. I'm sorry I don't live up to some sort of messageboard standard.

You're a pathetic and embarrassing example of everything that's wrong in this world. Hang your head in shame and maybe, just maybe, you can come in from the cold, after you have had time to think about your actions.

[alicebrallice 134]

jesus christ....

bwahaha, yeah I guess I should know better after a couple of months of this madhouse.

You have only scratched the surface of our madness in that time, believe me.

and I thought he was joking

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

And I've just read Chaac's words on the quality of the battle itself. Lol, the dude just stooped to a whole new level of idiocy in my eyes.

I'm not not sure if it's my (I admit it) poor way of putting things into words, or all I read about warfare was bullshit.

Anyway, it seems I loose one way or another because somebody decided it. I'm sorry I don't live up to some sort of messageboard standard.

You're a pathetic and embarrassing example of everything that's wrong in this world. Hang your head in shame and maybe, just maybe, you can come in from the cold, after you have had time to think about your actions.

Lol, I was joking! I thought that was obvious. Jesus, I'm not that much of twat you know.

I would certainly think Chaac knew I was taking the piss.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm a twat masquerading as a c**t. You're just a c**t.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Wouldn't you like to know.

[Ricard 2,245]

I would certainly think Chaac knew I was taking the piss.

I wouldn't.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well I was. Maybe you need to get down with the clique again, stranger.

Come on in, the water's lovely!

[Ricard 2,245]

Well I was. Maybe you need to get down with the clique again, stranger.

I was referring to Chaac. From his reply I don't think he knew you were joking.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,374]

Damn it! You stole someone's avatar, someone's signature and someone's name, and you're getting away with it? WTF?

[Wojo 2,453]

Not that I want to help the Englishman here or anything, but Chaac "liked" Quint's post, so if that doesn't mean he knew he was joking, then I don't know what does.

Stockholm syndrome?

[Ricard 2,245]

Not that I want to help the Englishman here or anything, but Chaac "liked" Quint's post, so if that doesn't mean he knew he was joking, then I don't know what does.

Well I hope he liked this one too:

And I've just read Chaac's words on the quality of the battle itself. Lol, the dude just stooped to a whole new level of idiocy in my eyes.

[Brónach 1,302]

For clarification: I keep falling for Quint's posts like a kid until he goes overboard and it becomes obvious.

Any sufficiently advanced forum member is indistinguishable from a troll.

[Wojo 2,453]

What about us insufficiently advanced ones?

[Quintus 5,399]

God I feel bad now, all this fuss

[Incanus 5,716]

Well this thread kind of blew into your face.

And damn I thought KM came back to the thread when Jason answered and there was that classic Vader helmet in here again. This mixed avatar business is getting annoying.

[Brónach 1,302]

God I feel bad now, all this fuss

Lighten up! You have many PDFs to email!

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm swamped! If only I could drag and drop

[gkgyver 1,646]

These type of epic CGI battles have been copy/pasted in so many medieval films (Narnia,Snow White and the Huntsman,Robin Hood to name a few) that they don't have any effect on me anymore

Not sure how else they could have done it, though.

What about using lots of extras. That tends to look pretty awesome.

They did use tons of extras.

But you can't expect them to hire 10 000 or 100 000 extras. WTF?

I would also like to point out, since someone points at battles in Snow White and Narnia, that LOTR was pretty much the first movie to do it on this scale.

He neither has the inclination, nor the obsession. He doesn't return to his earlier style, which people expected him to do for years (not anymore I hope), so he sure as hell wouldn't throw himself in the middle of Tolkien mythology and Wagner music for three years straight. And most certainly not in the way Shore has.

Williams wouldn't have needed 3 years to write something better

Agreed.

He'd never do it better.

I wish JW had had the time, inclination or obssesion for detailed Wagnerian writing to compose for LOTR.

Jesus Christ, by all that is good and decent, no!

He neither has the inclination, nor the obsession. He doesn't return to his earlier style, which people expected him to do for years (not anymore I hope), so he sure as hell wouldn't throw himself in the middle of Tolkien mythology and Wagner music for three years straight. And most certainly not in the way Shore has.

Williams' connection with Wagner has only strengthened since Star Wars, as far as the use of the leitmotif goes. The thematic connections are only getting more complex as JW gets older, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say he would never "throw himself in the middle of Wagner music."

A 70 year old man with five Oscars on his shelf doesn't need to prove anything to anyone, and doesn't need (and doesn't feel the need) to invest himself in the material the way a much younger composer with no Oscar and blockbuster experience would, and how the movies and PJ required it.

The last time Williams was truly inspired outside the body of Spielberg's works was Memoirs Of A Geisha, and even that didn't touch LOTR.

Also, Williams would have never survived the murderous post-production schedules with his health and score intact. It would have resulted in a prequel situation, with his music cut up all over the place.

I'm sorry, but I just read that KM compared the Siege Of Gondor to modern trailer music. I mean, seriously. If you have no understanding of music, just let it be and start collecting stamps or something.

[indy4 155]

I wish JW had had the time, inclination or obssesion for detailed Wagnerian writing to compose for LOTR.

Jesus Christ, by all that is good and decent, no!

He neither has the inclination, nor the obsession. He doesn't return to his earlier style, which people expected him to do for years (not anymore I hope), so he sure as hell wouldn't throw himself in the middle of Tolkien mythology and Wagner music for three years straight. And most certainly not in the way Shore has.

Williams' connection with Wagner has only strengthened since Star Wars, as far as the use of the leitmotif goes. The thematic connections are only getting more complex as JW gets older, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say he would never "throw himself in the middle of Wagner music."

A 70 year old man with five Oscars on his shelf doesn't need to prove anything to anyone, and doesn't need (and doesn't feel the need) to invest himself in the material the way a much younger composer with no Oscar and blockbuster experience would, and how the movies and PJ required it.

The last time Williams was truly inspired outside the body of Spielberg's works was Memoirs Of A Geisha, and even that didn't touch LOTR.

Also, Williams would have never survived the murderous post-production schedules with his health and score intact. It would have resulted in a prequel situation, with his music cut up all over the place.

I'm sorry, but I just read that KM compared the Siege Of Gondor to modern trailer music. I mean, seriously. If you have no understanding of music, just let it be and start collecting stamps or something.

Gkgyver. Read my post. I said absolutely nothing about William's ability to be inspired or to score a 9+ hour trilogy, nor anything about Lord of the Rings. I love the music of LotR, and I have repeatedly said (including once in this thread) that the score to RotK is a masterpiece. I also love John Williams modern works, and I think they're better than you give him credit (and there's at least one masterpiece). The post I wrote, about Williams' and Wagner's stylistic similarities, has absolutely nothing to do with how you responded.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I'm sorry, but I just read that KM compared the Siege Of Gondor to modern trailer music. I mean, seriously. If you have no understanding of music, just let it be and start collecting stamps or something.

Well, those given minutes is exactly Carmina Burana- rip what they use in most of the trailers.

[gkgyver 1,646]

Then so are both Duel Of The Fates and Battle Of The Heroes.

Only because it uses huge choir doesn't mean it's a Carmina Burana rip. It's not like Orff has a trademark on big choir pieces.

Name me a similar piece of trailer music that does not descend into schmaltz.

[KK 3,307]

I'm sorry, but I just read that KM compared the Siege Of Gondor to modern trailer music. I mean, seriously. If you have no understanding of music, just let it be and start collecting stamps or something.

Well, those given minutes is exactly Carmina Burana- rip what they use in most of the trailers.

Uhmmm since when were big loud choirs copyrighted by Orff?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

I think all film composers who have written something even remotely chanting and aggressive for choir get stamped with the label of sounding like Carl Orff's O Fortuna from Carmina Burana. Which is annoying but I think reflects the listeners' attempt to find a comparison in the world of classic orchestral music and only coming up with O Fortuna which is without a doubt one of the most played choral pieces of that type, appearing everywhere from trailers to tv commercials. When this turns into criticism it is just ridiculous since most of these film compositions like Duel of the Fates or music for the Ringwraiths or Arthur's Farewell from The First Knight are not a carbon copies of Orff's piece not even near but perhaps something in the same choral vein but that's where the similarity stops I think, since they do not intentionally or consciously borrow structures from Orff's piece. I would say it is more of an allusion to this type of music in music history rather than outright copying if even that.

Then there are those who have borrowed or have had to borrow their inspiration from Orff almost note for note in film music, like Horner's cue Charging Fort Wagner from Glory (sorry for singling you out Mr. Horner but it is so easy), where the structure of Orff's original is obviously embedded in the film cue.

[Wojo 2,453]

You guys know what green chalk can taste like?

HIPPIES