Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Yeah, I also never percieved it as a lift from Hugo. Its just that both compositions are in a more classical idiom. We also get to explore some medieval/baroque sounding music in the following film, with Laketown. But halfway into Battle of the Five Armies we are well into the romantic style of Fellowship of the Ring, so there's a nice progression there. There's also an evolution from a more instrumental score in the first two films into a more operatic score with voices going into Lord of the Rings, although all of the Middle Earth scores use voices extensivelly. 40 minutes ago, Kühni said: But yes, AUJ has more in common, thematically and orchestrationally, with its three predecessors (WHICH REALLY ARE SUCCESSORS!) than it has with DoS and TaBA. I actually think the latter two scores (and films) are tonally more like The Lord of the Rings in that the music helps in driving home a lot of the dark and elegiac aspects of the story. By comparison, An Unexpected Journey stands out as a score written in a much more bold and heroic vein, much like the film. I think the orchestrational difference complements the films' exploration of new, uncharted territory in Middle Earth. The fantastic low brass of the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra works well in accenting the foreboding element of those two scores. I think, if the (speculative) difference between the dulogy and trilogy is to be explored, this would be a good point to start: I don't quite know what the tone of the second installment in the proposed dulogy will have been; but with the trilogy, we got three films and scores, each darker than the next. SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Me too. I do think that I wouldn't like a dulogy as much as I like the trilogy, certainly in terms of fleshing out the musical "worlds" for places like Laketown, The Woodland Realm, etc. I know that the tonal issue was very much on the filmmakers mind when they split the book three ways. The second film in the dulogy was to cover more than half of the Desolation of Smaug and all of Battle of the Five Armies, and I think the two tones won't have meshed very well, and even if they had - the shift as Battle of the Five Armies fades into Fellowship of the Ring would be all the more jarring. Originally, Tolkien had concluded The Hobbit in a much happier fahsion fitting to the tone of the rest of the novel: Bilbo was to kill Smaug with Sting and no major character death was to happen. But he just couldn't help but infuse the story with the more archaic and brooding aspects that charactarized the rest of his writing, so as he was re-writing it, we gradually got to where we are, and ended up with the story taking a much more grounded approach following Smaug's demise. It's great, but it doesn't sit with the rest of the novel quite as well as one might hope. As it is, the trilogy (in terms of the films here rather than the music) moved the tonal inconsistency to the first film, but from the last hour of An Unexpected Journey going forward it finds its footing and hurtles forward. I would have hated to see that chopped up and served as one film, or one score for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Doug signed an NDA about how many NDAs he signed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,646 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 The Hobbit got so much shit for killing Smaug in a contrived way with a single huge arrow. Can you imagine if Smaug was killed by Bilbo with a single "sting"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 I don't think the episode was written down in full, but the idea was that Bilbo pokes Smaug's bald spot with Sting (even in the finished book, this ending is foreshadowed in Smaug's dream), and than floats on the gushing blood all the way back to the hidden door. No Laketown is destroyed nor is a battle fought, and Thorin and Co. survive. But Tolkien just couldn't help himself (just like with the Necromancer) and added a battle where the Goblins intercepted Bilbo on his way back, and the Woodland Elves, Beorn and the Northmen came to his aid. He later changed the entire end so Laketown is destroyed and the Battle of the Five Armies ensues. Since Tolkien realized that a full description of the battle would be too much for a childrens' book, he had most of it told to Bilbo in retrospect. Since this ending was an afterthought, many elements of it (Bard, the Black Arrow) appear without any set-up. I think this explains the partitioning of The Battle of the Five Armies. It also explains changes made specifically to Thorin's storyline: In the novel, Tolkien treats the character of Thorin as a central character and certainly refers to him with a sense of reverence. But for some reason he is reluctant to provide Thorin with a single achievement to back up his reputation: he doesn't kill Azog, Bolg or Smaug, doesn't win any battle, and isn't even the instigator of the quest. So, for a film adaptation in which Thorin is a main character, you'd want him to have an achievement such as the slaying of Azog or the attempt at slaying Smaug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,646 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Bilbo is surfing on blood? Maybe there is more Peter Jackson in Tolikien than meets the eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,591 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 I really have to get around to buying the History of Middle-Earth one of these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 Tolkien cooked up some whacky ideas - its all part of the creative process. That he knew to drop them and rewrite something more appropriate is what matters. In the Silmarillion, Sauron began as Tevildo, Lord of the cats (a Motif that survived in the shape of the Eye) who lost his powers when Huan tore off his necklace, which reduced him and his minions to the size of normal cats! Strider was originally a Hobbit that got captured by Orcs and had wooden legs in place of his amputated limbs! In terms of films, I think the craziest ideas belong to Del Toro: his designs for Smaug, Thranduil, etc are nuts! I much prefer what we ended up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 @Chen G. if you're going to be a regular participant of our forum, can you please upload some kind of avatar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,646 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 That's a wierd request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I still have a soft spot for the first score of the trilogy despite it not sounding too much like it sequels. I have always been somewhat disappointed that some of the colours and thematic ideas didn't travel to the other two scores. Things get awfully dark awfully fast in the Desolation of Smaug. On 29.10.2017 at 10:15 PM, Chen G. said: Tolkien cooked up some whacky ideas - its all part of the creative process. That he knew to drop them and rewrite something more appropriate is what matters. In the Silmarillion, Sauron began as Tevildo, Lord of the cats (a Motif that survived in the shape of the Eye) who lost his powers when Huan tore off his necklace, which reduced him and his minions to the size of normal cats! Strider was originally a Hobbit that got captured by Orcs and had wooden legs in place of his amputated limbs! Tolkien cooked up very strange initial ideas but he usually toned them down in the process, especially when the legendarium moved away from the original fairy story elements (excising of Tevildo and Trotter as the stories changed hue and shape and meaning). But as you say Tolkien's was a normal creative process where he revised and revised until he thought the story good enough. On the other hand some scenes came to him fully formed and never changed on iota, again part of the writing process that does happily happen sometimes. On 29.10.2017 at 2:50 PM, Chen G. said: Originally, Tolkien had concluded The Hobbit in a much happier fahsion fitting to the tone of the rest of the novel: Bilbo was to kill Smaug with Sting and no major character death was to happen. But he just couldn't help but infuse the story with the more archaic and brooding aspects that charactarized the rest of his writing, so as he was re-writing it, we gradually got to where we are, and ended up with the story taking a much more grounded approach following Smaug's demise. It's great, but it doesn't sit with the rest of the novel quite as well as one might hope. While it might not be tonally completely in line it was I think a tremendously effective and powerful way for a children's book to address such issues of fall and redemption and even death at the end with Thorin redeeming himself for his selfish actions in a rather archaic noble death in battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 . Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 36 minutes ago, Kühni said: Again, that's not the "fault" of the first score. Whether by design or as a consequence of the re-arrangements of AUJ, Shore apparently decided or was told to go in another direction with DoS and TaBA. If you desire consistency between your scores, then the LATER installments need to take direction on what came before, not the other way round. Well I very much agree on that Christian. And I somehow think PJ might have had his hand in changing the direction of the music both in content and sound. There is to me a clear emphasis on a more main stream blockbuster scoring approach to the music of BotFA which at times becomes a relentless sledge hammer to drive home the action. Not to forget that it was recorded in a different venue with different strengths and same goes for the NZSO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 12 minutes ago, BloodBoal said: But if the scoring team is to be believe, they did everything they could to make DOS and BOFA sound like the other scores! Bless them. They tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Kühni 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I thought people didn’t like the AUJ score when it came out first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I thought people here were underwhelmed. Maybe I just have that intertwined with people’s view of the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I don't think it was unanimous at any point. Since when have we all been able to agree on anything here? SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Before the dark times. Before DoS and BotFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 I find it incredibly amusing that on the forum titled John Williams Fans, there is so much criticism being pointed at the man who is quite possibly Williams' closest associate in the last decade or two. 2 hours ago, Bilbo Skywalker said: I thought people here were underwhelmed. Maybe I just have that intertwined with people’s view of the film. In a way, its perfectly natural for us to be unable to fully separate the impression of the film from the impression of the music, because the music was composed for the film. As Howard Shore would have said it, its like Opera. 6 hours ago, Incanus said: Things get awfully dark awfully fast in the Desolation of Smaug. Which is what I like love about it! It gets even darker in Battle of the Five Armies. Its a trully bleak film, and it concludes on a tragic note with Thorin's demise, especially in the Extended Edition. 6 hours ago, Incanus said: Things get awfully dark awfully fast in the Desolation of Smaug. While it might not be tonally completely in line it was I think a tremendously effective and powerful way for a children's book to address such issues of fall and redemption and even death at the end with Thorin redeeming himself for his selfish actions in a rather archaic noble death in battle. Sure. Its a much more dramatic ending, and it transformes the Hobbit into something more than a children's book, which is why I accept (and very much enjoy) the darker, more adult and grandiose vision of the films. The Hobbit book does have those elements in there, and Tolkien had the intention to go back and rewrite it, to bring the more foreboding elements of his Middle Earth writing forward. You start reading (or watching) what feels like an episodic adventure, but by the finale, all those episodic parts pay off: The blades from the Troll-hoard, the Goblins vengefullness, the Eagles, Beorn, the Silvan Elves, etc... 4 hours ago, Incanus said: And I somehow think PJ might have had his hand in changing the direction of the music both in content and sound. There is to me a clear emphasis on a more main stream blockbuster scoring approach to the music of BotFA which at times becomes a relentless sledge hammer to drive home the action. Not to forget that it was recorded in a different venue with different strengths and same goes for the NZSO. But if that is the case, why isn't the actual film mix like that? It much more resembles the previous installments. And yes, the New Zealand Symphony has their own sound, and as he so often does, Shore wrote to their strengths. There's some fantastic growling low brass in there, which fits the forces of evil in these films like a glove. And than Pipe Organ in the Town Hall almost makes you wish they'd used in for Sauron in the Lord of the Rings, too. Curiously enough, its the only Middle Earth not to feature a boy choir! Jay, John and SafeUnderHill 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo 3,709 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 For the record I love all three Hobbit scores. None of them are as good as The Lord of the Rings but considering the absolute dreck that's related under the guise of "film music" at the moment they're masterpieces. Kühni and John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 They're what raised my awareness to film music, and I really like the films, so I naturally agree. If anything, Howard Shore only got better at weaving a large number of leitmotives in a relatively short composition. Only Return of the King reaches the density of the Hobbit scores. And its got some wild musical colors: just about everything from Gamelan to bagpipes. It also occupies both the underscore, the digetic and source music and even a lot of sound effects: from the diegetic horn call in Battle of the Five Armies to the bowed waterphones of Mirkwood. And I also love that Shore got to explore his Dwarven material in this trilogy. It was glorious in 2001 and it was glorious and 2012. SafeUnderHill, John and Kühni 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Chen G. said: I find it incredibly amusing that on the forum titled John Williams Fans, there is so much criticism being pointed at the man who is quite possibly Williams' closest associate in the last decade or two. The critcism is largely leveled at the Hobbit films not the scores. I would have not gone into enormous lengths to write essays on them if I didn't find them admirable. I also admit that they are not without their faults. Not everything aligns as perfectly for me as for you in these massive and impressive compositions. And perhaps you do not know us well enough yet to know when we are being facetious. Which we often are. And the films are a completely other can of worms indeed for me. In attempting to mature the story into the Lord of the Rings level of mythical signicance (which the Hobbit novel touches only at the fringes out of necessity which the author indeed wanted to revise) PJ got caught in the web of his own making as the story became unnecessarily complicated and he had to fabricate a lot of things in order to explain his changes to the narrative and to linking of the films with LotR. Messy is my word for it. Shore is one person whose contribution to the film fares better and better as time goes by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I meant Conrad Pope's contribution. And I was being a bit facetious myself. I like the films, and not because I ignore their shortcoming, but rather in spite of them. I like the aggrandising of The Hobbit, because it: a) turns into something that I can enjoy more as an adult; b) makes it blend better with The Lord of the Rings. It fades into Fellowship of the Ring quite seemlessly. I think there aren't so much fabrications that arise from this being a prequel. I think most of the major changes have to do with Thorin. Like I said earlier, Thorin in the novel doesn't really accomplish anything, so having him kill Azog and even let him at least have a go at killing Smaug - was a good idea, thematically. I may not like the execution of some of it, but on the whole I like the choice. I am of the opinion that the only film that got the short end of the stick in the process of turning this into a trilogy was An Unexpected Journey. The other two - I like preety much as they currently are. Don't want no fan-edits. SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 The only person I blame for what happened to the scores after the first is Peter Jackson. Howard Shore and Conrad Pope did their best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, Jay said: The only person I blame for what happened to the scores after the first is Peter Jackson. Howard Shore and Conrad Pope did their best. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 And yet, Peter Jackson is the driving force behind a lot of fan-favorite musical choices. Where another filmmaker would just send the composer to "do his thing", with Peter Jackson each theme had to pass him. Some of the best themes from The Lord of the Rings weren't the first idea to come out of Shore's pen, but were the result of Jackson's wishes, e.g. the Rohan theme. Shore has often said that he felt like Peter Jackson was the Gandalf to his Frodo. The length of the recording process on these films is the result of Jackson's hands-on approach with the music. Really, only the score to an Unexpected Journey was fiddled with to a fault. The other two are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,646 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 In the Movies? BOTFA is an editorial mess. DoS is still my favourite. It has the most coherence out of the three, and a more satisfying conclusion than AUJ with Beyond The Forest. The conclusion is stronger in BOTFA, while the main body of the score is stronger in DoS. I also feel it has a better mix. BOTFA is just ... not good mixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, Chen G. said: And yet, Peter Jackson is the driving force behind a lot of fan-favorite musical choices. Oh, I dunno about that; What specifically do you mean (other than the eagles music for AUJ) Thanks for putting up an avatar, btw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,646 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Beyond saying "I don't like this", the driving force behind fan-favorite music is most certainly Shore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 And I would say most of PJ's decisions hurt the music, like favoring the sadder part of the Kili/Tauriel love theme over the first part, or keeping Bard's heroic theme for the third film and replacing it in film 2 with that more downer one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2017 The idea to use the Maori choir for Moria was Jackson's; The Rohan theme that we got was the result of Peter Jackson wanting something more hummable than Shore's early ideas; The idea to give Smaug a Far-Eastern flavor was Jackson's, although I believe the specific choice of Gamelan was Shore's; It was Jackson who gave Howard the direction to write a theme for Laketown that was out of "17th Century Cornwall." It's all in the documentaries. That's of course not to take anything away from Howard Shore. It is his music, but as they say - its a collaborative effort. SafeUnderHill, John and Jay 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,467 Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 Interesting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 4 hours ago, Incanus said: Before the dark times. Before DoS and BotFA. Hey, I still say DoS is the best of the lot! Someone just needs to re-record it under the baton of Shore with a new mix. SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 I actually find myself gravitating more towards The Battle of the Five Armies. Its just as dense and colorful, but its far more climactic and grand. By that film, The House of Durin theme is already well establish so it can "carry" the score, in a way that it can't quite do in The Desolation of Smaug. But its a close call between all three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,723 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 16 minutes ago, KK said: Hey, I still say DoS is the best of the lot! Someone just needs to re-record it under the baton of Shore with a new mix. KK you should know me better than that. I think DoS is the best of the lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 10 minutes ago, Incanus said: KK you should know me better than that. I think DoS is the best of the lot. I thought the naysayers had finally gotten to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kühni 485 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,002 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Warmth is the perfect definition of a lot of the string writing in that film. Take the music of the opening credits, for instance - so inviting. And then it turns on a dime and just keeps getting darker and darker leading into Lord of the Rings. The same applies to the Shire and Rivendell material. The Dwarvish music, by comparison, can't help but sound foreboding and melancholic, and it really comes into its own in The Battle of the Five Armies: Easily the best use of "Grunters" in Mithril, and some of the lowest singing in the series in "The Darkest Hour" - gives Russian Oktavists a run for their money. SafeUnderHill and John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SUH 65 Posted September 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 10, 2018 Fun series of tweets courtesy of Jim Ware: It has been a while since I listened to AUJ, so I'm really enjoying listening to pieces from it each day as Jim mentions them! The Erebor theme at 5:51 is breath-taking! Such a magnificent tone, with a slightly mournful quality similar to the brass for Gondor in ROTK. Also, a fun little tidbit I noticed: at 23s Shore seems to sketching a piece for 02:12.02 with the annotation 'th stabs'. This would suggest the sheet music is for the ending of the film with Thorin stabbing something. But he's actually writing the notes for 1:32 of 'The Adventure Begins'. You can see the crosses above the bars don't line up with the time signatures (the first two bars have 4 crosses, but he is writing in 3/4). He must have just been writing out the piece on some spare manuscript paper for the camera! Jay, Holko, Arpy and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arpy 4,145 Posted September 11, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 11, 2018 I've recently revisited An Unexpected Journey, it's filled with so much, introducing new themes left, right and centre, it's full of life and creates a real of sense of history within the context of the series, becoming a clear cousin (or ancestor-in-retrospect) to the Rings scores. Axe or Sword? and Radagast the Brown are perhaps two of my favourite cues from the score that are richly layered with thematic material and the sound we have come to associate with Middle-earth - in the case of Axe or Sword?, you have Bilbo's themes, Smaug's theme, the doorway motif, themes for Erebor and Thorin, it's incredible how that cue segues from theme to theme like poetry. Barnald, Faleel, Chen G. and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,002 Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Arpy said: the doorway motif By which you mean the Arkenstone motif? 10 hours ago, SUH said: a slightly mournful quality More than mournful, I would say the Erebor theme (and Thorin's) speaks more about yearning. Its really a patriotic story, and the theme captures that - with a mere six notes. 10 hours ago, SUH said: He must have just been writing out the piece on some spare manuscript paper for the camera! Yeah, documentaries do that sort of thing. SUH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 @Chen G. 3:03 - 3:09 is what plays when we see the door on the map and then again at the end of the film when we see the thrush fly pecking on the door. I think it comes back in the later scores. I can't be bothered to find them now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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