Rings of Power Amazon buys up Middle-earth, it searches the One Ring! (Rings of Power news thread)

[TolkienSS 407]

Nah, I hate to think that Shore's leitmotivic approach gets reduced to simple "here's main theme for kicks".

[Chen G. 3,949]

I actually think it will add a whole new dimension to Shore's music for his themes to have undergone not just musical and semantic development, but to also change the idiom in which they're used.

 

So, we start with "abstract title theme", we progress through...whatever Bear may or may not do with it, we go through this extended phase in Shore's proper scores where they're used with a very specific meaning, and then towards the end of the cycle they "give way to musical gravity" a little.

[TolkienSS 407]

The meaning will be given by the scenes, through arbitraty usage, as opposed to the other way around as it should be.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I mean, the logic would be to use the arpeggio motive loosely with Elrond and Elvendom.

 

The other scalar motive...I think in Howard Shore's motivic language is probably intended to be a motive of mankind. And we also have our old friend the Tarnhelm progression, but that's already in Bear's score too...

[TolkienSS 407]

It's not a deliberate progression. It's little more than a compositional tool.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Oh, I know, I know!

 

But in Shore's score it definitely has a kind of thematic significance. Not one you could put into very simple words (Doug calls them the "Mount Doom chords") but one that's nevertheless there. And its there in the Rings of Power Main Titles, too!

 

But its not a melodic idea that McCreary can grasp on like the other two motives.

[Monoverantus 363]

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But in Shore's score it definitely has a kind of thematic significance. Not one you could put into very simple words (Doug calls them the "Mount Doom chords") but one that's nevertheless there. And its there in the Rings of Power Main Titles, too!

To be clear, though Doug refers to the harmonies of the Mount Doom theme several times, usually to point out how they're used in other themes like The Pity of Gollum, he never used the phrase "Mount Doom chords". That's something I coined to "put it into very simple words"

[Chen G. 3,949]

Yeah that's right. But, then, he does talk about "Mount Doom's harmonies" so...

 

But it just goes to show how limiting those theme names are. That progression occurs, I would wager, hundreds and hundreds of times (and that's not hyperbole) in situations that don't really have anything directly to do with Mount Doom. Its more abstractly about the foreboding that lay ahead on the quest, encroaching evil forces, etc...

 

And its...well, its just the Tarnhelm!

[Monoverantus 363]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

And its...well, its just the Tarnhelm!

Or the Imperial March... or the Batman theme... or (insert whichever score you first heard it in and came to define it for you ever since) 

[TolkienSS 407]

3 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

To be clear, though Doug refers to the harmonies of the Mount Doom theme several times, usually to point out how they're used in other themes like The Pity of Gollum, he never used the phrase "Mount Doom chords". That's something I coined to "put it into very simple words"

 

It's literally called "Mount Doom" in his book 

[Chen G. 3,949]

What he means is Doug doesn't call it the "Mount Doom Chords" as such.

 

3 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

Or the Imperial March... or the Batman theme...

 

Yes! They're all based on the Tarnhelm progression.

 

NB: We call it the Tarnhelm, but its actually a Wagnerian trademark first introduced in Lohengrin, then used with the helm in the Ring, in Bragane's watch in Tristan, the midsummer night of Meistersinger, and the miracle in Parsifal. So, a kind of shorthand for the magical and faerie-like.

[TolkienSS 407]

8 hours ago, Chen G. said:

What he means is Doug doesn't call it the "Mount Doom Chords" as such.

 

 

Yes! They're all based on the Tarnhelm progression.

 

NB: We call it the Tarnhelm, but its actually a Wagnerian trademark first introduced in Lohengrin, then used with the helm in the Ring, in Bragane's watch in Tristan, the midsummer night of Meistersinger, and the miracle in Parsifal. So, a kind of shorthand for the magical and faerie-like.

 

It's two minor chords a major third apart. Of course he doesn't call it Mount Doom CHORDS. The chordal nature is self evident and in the description.

[Chen G. 3,949]

37 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

It's two minor chords a major third apart. Of course he doesn't call it Mount Doom CHORDS.

 

I think, more to the point, Doug tends to call attention to this progression when it appears in a more specific context: like when Elrond remembers bringing Isildur to the Sammath Naur, and then later when Frodo arrives therein. In both cases, its not just that there's a clear contextual relation to Mount Doom, but the progression also appears over a kind of driving triplet: I think to Doug this is the "Mount Doom" theme, rather than the progression in itself, although to be fair he does make reference to the "harmonies of Mount Doom" in the beginning of the Council of Elrond, where its really just the chords.

 

Its really Monoverantus who embarked on remarking on any place that progression occurs at (which is just about everywhere ) and treating it at least tentativelly as a thematic idea running through the score. I think it was a very wise call. Sure, its a super-basic progression, but then that's why Howard "picks" elements like these to work with!

[Monoverantus 363]

14 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

It's two minor chords a major third apart. Of course he doesn't call it Mount Doom CHORDS. The chordal nature is self evident and in the description.

How is it possible to act so condescending in a discussion that you've added 0 new information to? 

 

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Its really Monoverantus who embarked on remarking on any place that progression occurs at (which is just about everywhere ) and treating it at least tentativelly as a thematic idea running through the score. I think it was a very wise call. Sure, its a super-basic progression, but then that's why Howard "picks" elements like these to work with!

The Mount Doom chords is personally my favorite subject of speculation. Other motifs are quite black and white (a rising perfect fifth can be a reference to Gondor, but will just as often not be). But the Mount Doom/Weakness and Redemption symbiosis is fascinating. Why? Well, Weakness and Redemption is an arpeggio ending with a flat sixth. Mount Doom is two chords a flat sixth apart.

If ordered in levels of "backed by official information" it looks something like this:

Level 1: The music played in "The Sword That Was Broken", "For Frodo" and "Mount Doom" is labelled the Mount Doom theme by Doug/Shore. The same chords are used in other themes, paired up with the Weakness and Redemption melody, in The Pity of Gollum, The Journey There, and Rivendell (in major).

Level 2: Doug has pointed out several scenes where W & R appears on it's own, like in A Conspiracy Unmasked and The Plains of Rohan, without mentioning that the Mt Doom chords appear there as well.

Level 3: There are scenes where W & R/Mt Doom chords appear that has never been pointed out, like in Gandalf the White and the end of The Tower of Cirith Ungol.

Level 4: And finally there's plenty of scenes where the Mt Doom chords appear on their own, where their leitmotivic purpose is far more wobbly. Just like the chords from any other theme can spontaneously appear in isolation, so can they.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 hour ago, Monoverantus said:

finally there's plenty of scenes where the Mt Doom chords appear on their own, where their leitmotivic purpose is far more wobbly.

 

Right. But they always have connotations of encroaching evil forces, foreboding (naturally, that's what that kind of progression instills), the grim prospects of the quest, and all that sort of very laden feeling. I think the first time in the narrative order that they appear ("after" The Rings of Power Main Titles) is here, which is just about perfect for it:

 

 

We have the same situation in anaylses of The Ring. One of the major thematic ideas in the Ring is a two-note appogiatura falling a fullstep. Its such a simple idea, and its associations (in its most simple form) so broad and abstract - its usually labeled "joy" - that if one really is trying to, one can hear it EVERYWHERE. For instance, is it here? or here? or, even more controversially, is it here at the very, very end under the strings? And what if I were to propose that the Ring as a whole, starting as it does in E-flat and cadencing in D-flat, is in fact tracing that same idea in its overall tonal structure? Someone is bound to say its reading too much into it, but I think its worthwhile noting it, at least.

[Monoverantus 363]

Not the least if we take the analysis one step further, and include Nature's Reclamation, which also uses the flat-sixth-apart chords, with the only change being that one is major and one is minor. On a sliding scale of diatonicism, you'd have: 

Nature's Reclamation (Am-F) = diatonic, natural, easy on the ear; unambiguously good

Rivendell (A-F) = major-moded yet chromatic; beautiful yet still tinged with mystery and wonder

Mt Doom (Am-Fm) = minor-moded and chromatic; unpleasant and foreboding

All 3 have melodies associated with them that glide from the fifth to the flat sixth.

 

Does this mean there must be a connection between these themes (or the TRoP track)? Not necessarily. It's clearly a compositional pattern that Shore is attached to, and it might just be that. It's harmless to point out that it's there and leaving it up for interpretation, but I'd personally avoid claiming something is or isn't intentional unless I have very good sources for it.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I think the connection, on its own, mostly points out that mediant progression had, even since Lohengrin, been very strongly associated with fantasy, magic and the faerie-like.

 

But - BUT - what really matters is that, whether or not he had it in his head when he composed the themes, in the actual scoring process Howard does play on these similarities, certainly between the dark, dour chords associated with Mount Doom, and the bright ones associated with Elrond and Rivendell.

 

So, when an offscreen Arwen holds Aragorn at sword point, we hear the "evil" version of the chords, first. The music plays on the ambiguousness of the moment. Likewise, I've seen An Unexpected Journey with people new to this series, and when those chords swell as the characters first see Rivendell (most of them, being Dwarves, seeming quite concerned) people really thought something terrible was going to be unveiled, and suddenly the chords brighten and the arpeggios start rolling...

[Faleel 5,348]

Are the first notes of the destruction of Isengard related to that?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Well, as we've just established the nature "chords" are related to the Elven and Mordor ones, so any resemblence you hear stems from that.

[Monoverantus 363]

10 hours ago, Presto said:

Are the first notes of the destruction of Isengard related to that?

Can you be more specific what notes you mean?

[Faleel 5,348]

1 hour ago, Monoverantus said:

Can you be more specific what notes you mean?

The first few notes...

 

Not the last notes.

 

 

Kidding aside, I mean the brass notes that start right after the big Gandalf the White statement

[Monoverantus 363]

1 hour ago, Presto said:

Kidding aside, I mean the brass notes that start right after the big Gandalf the White statement

Hehe, ok. To answer your question then, yes and no. The first chords are Em-Fm, which then continues up stepwise (Gm-Am-Bbm-Bm-Cm-Dbm). The whole destruction of Isengard segment is built around this incrementally rising motion, in both melody and chords, which takes inspiration from Nature's Reclamation's B Phrase. The A phrase is a lovely diatonic motif, while the B Phrase has this chromatically rising power stirring from below (F#dim-F#m-F#-Bm).

 

Consider this moment, from when Pippin hits an Orc with a stone. It has the exact same "one-note-at-a-time" chord change (C#dim-C#m-C#-C#sus)

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

3 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

C#dim

 

Is this kind of nature music the only real use of diminished harmonies in the scores? I think there's also some in the Paths of the Dead compositions, but I could be mistaken.

[Monoverantus 363]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Is this kind of nature music the only real use of diminished harmonies in the scores? I think there's also some in the Paths of the Dead compositions, but I could be mistaken.

Oh sure. In the crazier parts of the score everything's permitted.

Any jazz musician would highlight diminshed chords' utility for modulation, but in LotR, Shore seems to mostly apply them in passing, as part of quite intuitive voice-leading. Consider the first 4 chords of the Lighting of the Beacons: Fm-Fdim-Fm-Db. It's literally just the top note moving down-and-up by halfsteps. A similar case is the morning of departure for the Rohirrim: Dm-Ddim-Dm-Bbm-Dm-Ddim-Dm. Or the final Wagner-tribute: E-D-E-F#dim, E-D-F#dim-E. The closeness of notes is clearly more important than any functional harmony.

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

11 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

Or the final Wagner-tribute: E-D-E-F#dim, E-D-F#dim-E.

 

Well, that one is kinda cheating.  Wagner loooved diminished and half-diminished chords: they're in everything from Rienzi to Parsifal. And, of course, there's Tristan...

 

I actually think that's why the score tends not emphasize them otherwise: I think it sounded too "modern" to Howard.

[JNHFan2000 2,961]

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

They’re really sticking with these same writers, huh? Wild.

[crocodile 8,012]

Well, the bottom line is we're getting more Bear McCreary music this year. Awesome!

 

Karol

[Chen G. 3,949]

The budding Plan 9 fan in me laments that they're clearly not doing whatever source cues season two has to offer...

[Richard Penna 3,689]

Huh? Have we missed something indicating Plan 9 isn't involved?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Bear said he's doing the diegetic pieces this time around, hadn't he?

 

Plus, it stands to reason, with the move out of New Zealand, that Plan 9 wouldn't be involved.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

The physical location of musicians shouldn't have a bearing on whether they're involved if Bear is supervising orchestra recording sessions over Zoom.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Yeah, but I know quite a few of the Kiwi crew have been replaced for season two following the move: Season two's credited prosthetic supervisor is not Weta (whether they're still doing some hand props is not ascertained, but my instinct would be no), Daniel Reeve (the guy who did all the caligraphy and maps in the films and in season one) had downscaled his involvement drastically, the costume designer Kate Hawley is off the payroll.

 

It stands to reason for Plan 9 to be in the same situation, and since Bear said he's recording pieces that will be used during the filming - that is to say source music - it seems to clench the case. Heck, for all I can tell the reason Plan 9 were engaged in season one was because they needed music on the set, and Bear wasn't yet on the payroll at the time.

 

I guess its good for Bear to consolidate the whole sweep of the music under his baton, and it might just help the show feel less Frankensteined with Jacksonisms, but Plan 9's contributions to Season One were a welcome addition to their Tolkien oeuvre. Alas...