Star Wars Disenchantment

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Luke Skywalker is like Jesus for some fans. And any vision of Luke that doesn't not conform to their perception of their Lord is blasphemy!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I find TLJ's dark and disturbing Luke more realistic and relatable.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

We had our time with optimistic Luke. People change, and after all he want through, with good reason. Luke was human. The Jedi were human. He's not the first to go awry.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Jedi were a morally self-righteous clan!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I don't think so... no-one can kill a Jedi.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

LUKE: The legacy of the Jedi is failure. Can you feel that?

REY: Preach it, Master Skywalker!

 

I liked when Luke said:

"To say that when the Jedi die the light dies is vanity."

The Jedi are not the sole source of light in the universe. They serve as the beacon and the embodiment of it, but they too are still susceptible to turning down the wrong path. 

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

LUKE: The legacy of the Jedi is failure. Can you feel that?

 

That I didn't appreciate that for a different reason. That whole discussion about "it was a Jedi master who was responsible for the training of Darth Vader..." felt a) like two Star Wars fans arguing and b) like Johnson trying to retcon one of the prequel trilogy's most egregious shortcomings: how much of a dick every friggin' Jedi master is in those films.

 

Johnson, not unlike others before him, tries to reframe it, as if George Lucas was providing a commentary on the vanity and stagnation of the Jedi council. In my eyes, even when I watcthed these films for the first time, this was simply not true. It was evident that George Lucas just constructed the Jedi's mannerisms (Monasticism, Asceticism) as shorthand for stoicism and zen, which is less than succesfull. To be fair, there's a touch of that in Yoda's mannerisms in Empire Strikes Back (his willingness to have Luke sacrifice his friends, for instance) but its subtle enough that its of no consequence.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

Aah, for love of God, shut hell up!

[Nick Parker 3,040]

With Empire Strikes Back, Yoda's request can be seen with a sense of compassion and wisdom, and "humanity" if you will. And ultimately, he was completely right in a natural way. 

 

With the prequels the Jedi are just dicks, you described it as succinctly as possible. George Lucas is a very intelligent and philosophical man, it's a shame that with the prequels he confused detachment and non-attachment, making the Jedi completely unlikeable. There was a children's series that came out after The Phantom Menace (before Lucas made the Jedi _really_ stupid), that did the Jedi _way_ better than Lucas did, much more in line with Yoda from Empire.

[Chen G. 3,950]

4 minutes ago, Richard said:

Aah, for love of God, shut hell up!

 

Um...no.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 minutes ago, Richard said:

Aah, for love of God, shut hell up!

 

Richard, how nice of you to join my thread. Care to dance?

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

A nifty video, from a brilliant album!

I first heard ROCKIT on a British TV show called The Tube, with Herbie Hancock performing. I simply could not believe what I was hearing!

I went out and bought the record, the next day. 

Although I've learned to like TFS more, I still love ROCKIT.

[Mattris 416]

On 9/7/2018 at 6:21 PM, Jerry said:

Oh, so you've noticed. You realize that we've stopped trying a long time ago because we know that it simply doesn't amount to anything. You call for debate but you refuse to hear the other side. I would like to echo @John in saying that I feel sorry that this supposed drastic turn in the Star Wars saga is such an instilling, life-affecting, deeply rooted issue for you. I hope that you may one day take it for what it is (a fictional film series and while I love it with the greatest appreciation even I can recognize that no matter how it turns it will always be special to me).

 

The funny thing is that you know The Last Jedi so well I might even suppose that you've watched it a gazillion times, to which one might think that you actually like it now and simply refuse to turn back on your former points. Star Wars is great and I'm a huge nerd for it, but anyone who's concerned about it as much as you is missing the mark of cinematic fandom and perhaps, with all due respect,  what's really important in life in general.

 

I don't want you to like The Last Jedi and I don't want you to continue to watch the movies against your will. I want you to understand that this is not everything. Good evening to you and pray don't reply the way you have always.

 

Hi Jerry. I'd like to have another crack at responding to your post.

 

I think you've 'stopped trying' because you cannot dispute the film's extensive list of issues. Nor can you deny the film's deliberate - and quite obvious - attempts to subvert fans' expectations at practically every turn.

 

This discussion may amount to something: That you and others will realize that TLJ was not trying to be the best film/sequel/Star Wars movie possible; it was a selfish production from Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson to turn the franchise on its head.

 

I do not "refuse to hear the other side." The fact that a dozen people are passionately defending the film - in response to my posts - tells me that "this supposed drastic turn in the Star Wars saga is such an instilling, life-affecting, deeply rooted issue for you".

 

No matter how it turns out, this fictional film series will always be special to me, as well. I love it so much that it sickens me to see it trashed... and that so many people (fans) have accepted/praised these sad attempts at Star Wars films. A significant portion of the fanbase realizes that they are really just agenda-driven 'Star Wars substitute'. (Case in point: the utter failure of Solo at the box office on the heels of the backlash from TLJ.)

 

I watched The Last Jedi once in December. I know it so well from consuming dozens of comments, articles, and videos. I hate the film with a passion. I think it's you (and other here) who "simply refuse to turn back on your former points" and seem to be "concerned about it as much as" me. Missing the mark of cinematic fandom? What I've done is call out crap when I see it. But I will admit that while Star Wars is important in the world of entertainment - as well as pop-cultural, it is not "what's really important in life in general."

 

Good evening to you, as well, but I will reply in the manner I see fit.

 

On 9/8/2018 at 12:09 AM, Demodex said:

He considered it, for the greater good, but he couldn't go through with it. So what?  Obi-Wan expected him to kill his father, or else " the Emporer has already won."  I don't see how anything in TLJ does a disservice to Luke's character. He was the best one in the movie. 

 

20 hours ago, Mattris said:

especially after you said that I have a problem with strong female characters and don't quote me.

 

Oh for fucks sakes.  You started off this thread bitching about how TLJ had a feminist agenda, citing strong female characters as evidence. Are you denying this?  I'm surely not the only person here who read your posts that you've now forgotten about. 

 

And stop saying most Star Wars fans are unhappy with the new trilogy, because you're the only one I've come across so far.  It's a vocal minority of whiny bitches you are associating with.  Go cry more. 

 

Give me a break. Killing someone in cold blood is never the right solution. Certainly not from Luke Skywalker, a character that had already been established as being of high moral character. Luke acting "for the greater good" would have been to evacuate his students and gain an audience with the Resistance/Republic to explain the dire circumstances. Leia would certainly acted immediately and done all she could to curtail - or at least better prepare for - the impending war... as well as plead with her son to abandon the Dark Side and come back to his family who loves him.

 

I still say "TLJ had a feminist agenda, citing strong female characters as evidence". The problem is the prominent - but terribly written and poorly/awkwardly incorporated - 'strong female characters' in the film came at the expense of the males, every one of which are portrayed as flawed in a significant way. This is undeniable.

 

While I can't speak for the general public, I would bet my JWfan membership that most Star Wars fans are unhappy with the new trilogy. It's common knowledge that TFA was a re-hash of ANH. TLJ is underwater on Rotten Tomatoes and made $700 less than TFA, with far fewer home media sales. Take a look at comment sections of countless SW-related articles and videos on Yahoo and Youtube. They overwhelmingly agree with 'my side'. You continue to say that I'm part of 'a vocal minority' but Solo just bombed badly, receiving less than a third of the box office revenue of Rouge One, the other SW spin-off film. I guarantee the fans represent a majority of the merchandise sales. "Whiny bitches you are associating with. Go cry more." You sound like Lucasfilm employees.

 

On 9/8/2018 at 12:21 AM, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

 

I didn't misquote you, I shortened it. Because I find Luke's deathwish highly relatable.

 

You misquoted me, Cherry. I find Jedi Master Luke Skywalker thought-probing a student while he sleeps, snap consideration to kill someone in their sleep, and ignition of his lightsaber to carry out the act... unfathomable.

 

On 9/8/2018 at 1:05 AM, Holko said:

Well, you're right. I suppose I did have low standards: I wanted it to entertain me, and continue the story in a satisfactory way. And it did that.

20 hours ago, Mattris said:

How have I refused to hear the other side?

  19 hours ago, Mattris said:

He considered killing his nephew in cold blood.

Ahem...

 

Please elaborate.

 

I was entertained by TLJ, as well. But my standards for SW are far higher. So far, this sequel trilogy is worse that I would have ever expected. Thank goodness for the contributions of John Williams.

 

On 9/8/2018 at 2:55 AM, Nick Parker said:

My larger point was it's not good rhetoric to assume this sort of thing. If anything, saying "having low standards" is more condescending than "not a true fan".

 

Holko admitted to going in with low standards, so perhaps I'm onto something. Imagine how much better the sequel trilogy could have been. Compared to the original trilogy, these are not quality films, but they are entertaining to various degrees. Those that enjoy them have "low standards".

 

To me - and many others, it's clear that Kennedy/JJ/Johnson's primary goals were not to make 'the best movies possible, to satisfy the majority of the fans, to make the most money'. This selfish, misguided approach has cost them billions in revenue and broken the fandom.

 

I disagree. Calling someone "not a true fan" is far worse.

 

On 9/8/2018 at 4:37 AM, Arpy said:

I'm pretty sure that Luke going as far to try and murder his nephew was what made his character interesting, that he went down such a dark path. The fallout from that made him lose faith in the Jedi way. Wasn't all this obvious? 

 

'Interesting' is one word to describe his actions. 'Disgraced' is another. The fallout made fans loose faith in those in control of Star Wars. Isn't this obvious? 

 

On 9/8/2018 at 8:48 AM, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

I find TLJ's dark and disturbing Luke more realistic and relatable.

 

... definitely more interesting.

 

On 9/8/2018 at 9:12 AM, Jerry said:

We had our time with optimistic Luke. People change, and after all he want through, with good reason. Luke was human. The Jedi were human. He's not the first to go awry.

 

True. It's specifically how he was portrayed  and the circumstance of his death  that fans take issue with. 

 

On 9/8/2018 at 10:39 AM, Jerry said:

I liked when Luke said:

"To say that when the Jedi die the light dies is vanity."

The Jedi are not the sole source of light in the universe. They serve as the beacon and the embodiment of it, but they too are still susceptible to turning down the wrong path. 

 

 

But who was he saying said that? It's my opinion that Jedi were not embodiment of the Light. They were simply a long-standing group who opposed the Dark. And their self-righteousness, over-confidence, and ignorance eventually resulted in their downfall.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Calling someone "not a true fan" is far worse.

 

Someone says I'm "not a true fan", whatever. Dumb rhetoric, annoying, but whatever. I'm okay with not being a true fan of a fictional series.

 

Someone says I have "low standards" (or any similar variation), then I feel like my intelligence is being insulted.

[Mattris 416]

One 'having low standards' for a fictional series has nothing to do with their intelligence. It is all about expectations... and what will satisfactorily entertain.

[SteveMc 2,674]

17 minutes ago, Mattris said:

A significant portion of the fanbase realizes that they are really just agenda-driven 'Star Wars substitute'

The way I see it, any Star Wars done without George Lucas at the helm is, for better or worse, something of a substitute.

 

Nothing to take overly seriously at any rate.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

35 minutes ago, Mattris said:

and what will satisfactorily entertain

 

See how this can be construed as condescending?

[Mattris 416]

No. Being entertained by a film and having high expectations met are separate constructs.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

You conflate the two in your post by using the word "and" to link them. As I read it, you're saying that those with lower expectations will be satisfactorily entertained by less, which is a comment on my taste, and I find that rude.

[Mattris 416]

It seems as though you're conflating "expectations" with "intelligence".

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I'll repeat: you say that--by extension--I enjoyed The Last Jedi because I'm willing to be entertained by less than those who dislike it. Keeping the entire concept of intelligence out of this, do you understand how I read this as insult towards my and other's tastes?

[Arpy 4,145]

@Mattris the moment you speak for the fans you have to concede that you're not speaking from a place that's grounded in objectivity anymore.

Why can't you take some initiative and say 'I thought it was shit', instead of speaking for a whole group of people.

 

From my point of view the fanbase is fickle, yet there's still a great deal of respect for the series that will take a lot more than a disappointing film (and the screeching of entitled dickheads) to erode.

 

Come now, do you really believe that one poorly received film is going to take down a franchise that has been in the collective pop culture around the world for well over forty years?

 

All this isn't even to address your concerns over Luke's character.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But see, it wasn't all that poorly recieved at all! Its made a ton of money in the cinema and is selling very well on blu!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Well why are they concealing its VHS sales? What do they have to hide?!

[Demodex 557]

But TLJ must have sucked because Solo didn't perform well!  And my opinion is the only correct one!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Solo bombed because they had to shoot it twice and no one was interested in it anyway.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

General audiences probably weren't aware of the reshoots anyway.

[Arpy 4,145]

22 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

But see, it wasn't all that poorly recieved at all! Its made a ton of money in the cinema and is selling very well on blu!

Yes, critics loved it! I loved it! 

 

Yet, in the circles I'm in with friends and colleagues and just the general atmosphere of online discourse, I'm hard pressed to find anything positive about the film. It's just bitterness amplified.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Anyone else know anyone who pretended to like it just to avoid the wrath of their feminist friends?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 minute ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Anyone else know anyone who pretended to like it just to avoid the wrath of their feminist friends?

 

Drax, are you projecting again?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, Nick Parker said:

 

Drax, are you projecting again?

 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Ironically, most of my feminist friends didn't like The Last Jedi.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Are they Star Wars fans?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

They like the movies enough, but would never go out of their way to watch them.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The Force is Female!

[Holko 9,531]

And yet again, the dude rambles on about how something which didn't happen and we told him 20 times didn't happen but he can't understand it didn't happen the way his circlejerk hate videos and articles say ruins a beloved character and a whole movie.

[Mattris 416]

On 9/8/2018 at 9:26 PM, Nick Parker said:

I'll repeat: you say that--by extension--I enjoyed The Last Jedi because I'm willing to be entertained by less than those who dislike it. Keeping the entire concept of intelligence out of this, do you understand how I read this as insult towards my and other's tastes?

 

No. I'm saying it's possible that you enjoyed The Last Jedi because you had low expectations for it. Your enjoyment of a 'thing' should have nothing to do with the enjoyment of those that disliked that thing. But it's understandable that you might feel confused, out of place, or insulted if the majority of the traditional fans of that thing have a vastly different opinion than you.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 12:41 AM, Arpy said:

@Mattris the moment you speak for the fans you have to concede that you're not speaking from a place that's grounded in objectivity anymore.

Why can't you take some initiative and say 'I thought it was shit', instead of speaking for a whole group of people.

 

From my point of view the fanbase is fickle, yet there's still a great deal of respect for the series that will take a lot more than a disappointing film (and the screeching of entitled dickheads) to erode.

 

Come now, do you really believe that one poorly received film is going to take down a franchise that has been in the collective pop culture around the world for well over forty years?

 

All this isn't even to address your concerns over Luke's character.

 

I've done my research. I know that I speak for the majority of the fans since those individuals take the time to post their thoughts and opinions online. The general public is another story. We'll see what happens by the time Episode 9 rolls around.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 12:46 AM, Stefancos said:

But see, it wasn't all that poorly recieved at all! Its made a ton of money in the cinema and is selling very ell on blu!

 

Again, TLJ made $700 million less than TFA. After two years of hype, this was the film that would show what happened with Rey (learned very little, refused Klyo again, lifted some rocks), Luke (bitter, defeated, died), Finn (second fiddle to Rose for the entire film), Poe (constantly squashed), Snoke (tricked by Kylo and killed), Leia (did nothing except Force-float back from space after a missile explosion), and Chewie (did nothing except smash a door, cook some Porgs, and pilot the Millennium Falcon).

 

Being the 'best-selling Blu-ray' is relative (to the other titles being sold) and an irrelevant point. I heard it's sold fewer copies than Rouge One, but I'll have to look into that. 

 

On 9/9/2018 at 12:50 AM, Demodex said:

But TLJ must have sucked because Solo didn't perform well!  And my opinion is the only correct one!

 

The fans have spoken. Have you looked online? Solo's utter failure is just the real-life proof of the back-lash. Mark my words, the majority of the fans agree with me.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 12:53 AM, Stefancos said:

Solo bombed because they had to shoot it twice and no one was interested in it anyway.

 

Having to shoot it twice had little-to-nothing to do with it's box office bomb status. No one was interested in a uninspired Han Solo film in which the title character acts like a boy and/or submissive for most of the film... and was released in theaters after Han Solo was killed on-screen.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 1:11 AM, Arpy said:

Yes, critics loved it! I loved it! 

 

Yet, in the circles I'm in with friends and colleagues and just the general atmosphere of online discourse, I'm hard pressed to find anything positive about the film. It's just bitterness amplified.

 

Correct. The anti-Disney Star Wars Movement is in full swing. Merchandise and ticket sales have nose-dived. After spending ~$4 billion to purchase Lucasfilm, they are still about ~$3 billion in the red. From a business perspective, this is worst case scenario stuff. I predict massive changes at Lucasfilm soon. Speaking of that, I hear that Kathleen Kennedy is to be given a honorary Oscar. Perhaps that will be part of her going-away package. Star Wars fans can only hope.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 2:03 AM, Holko said:

And yet again, the dude rambles on about how something which didn't happen and we told him 20 times didn't happen but he can't understand it didn't happen the way his circlejerk hate videos and articles say ruins a beloved character and a whole movie.

 

Elaborate, if you please.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

5 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Having to shoot it twice had little-to-nothing to do with it's box office bomb status. No one was interested in a uninspired Han Solo film in which the title character acts like a boy and/or submissive for most of the film... and was released just 5 months after Han Solo was killed on-screen.

 

Han Solo was killed in TFA, not TLJ.

[Holko 9,531]

Ok, I'll write it out yet again, this time so even you'll understand: LUKE. NEVER. CONSCIOUSLY. CONSIDERED. KILLING. HIS. OWN. NEPHEW. IT. WAS. A. MOMENT. OF. PURE. INSTINCT. LIKE. HE. SAYS. IN. THE. FUCKING. FILM.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Having to shoot it twice had little-to-nothing to do with it's box office bomb status.

 

It has to do with the fact that it made the movie a lot more, therefore making it a lot harder to break even or turn a profit.

Had Solo been done for 150 million, it would by now have broke even or made a tiny profit.

[Mattris 416]

3 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Han Solo was killed in TFA, not TLJ.

 

Oops. I corrected my post.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Your original #FAKENEWS post still stands as a quote by me.

 

 

[Mattris 416]

3 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

It has to do with the fact that it made the movie a lot more, therefore making it a lot harder to break even or turn a profit.

Had Solo been done for 150 million, it would by now have broke even or made a tiny profit.

 

It's original budget was $250 million. As far as I know, the cost of the re-shoots have not been reported. But let's be honest, the cost of a Star Wars movie (within reason) should have nothing to do with its public perception or bottom-line profit. Just admit it, the fan back-lash is the #1 reason it failed miserably.

[Arpy 4,145]

 

17 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

No. I'm saying it's possible that you enjoyed The Last Jedi because you had low expectations for it. Your enjoyment of a 'thing' should have nothing to do with the enjoyment of those that disliked that thing. But it's understandable that you might feel confused, out of place, or insulted if the majority of the traditional fans of that thing have a vastly different opinion than you.

 

 

I've done my research. I know that I speak for the majority of the fans since those individuals take the time to post their thoughts and opinions online. The general public is another story. We'll see what happens by the time Episode 9 rolls around.

 

The fans have spoken. Have you looked online? Solo's utter failure is just the real-life proof of the back-lash. Mark my words, the majority of the fans agree with me.

 

Thanks for confirming my point. Is there some online and offline consensus on what the fans think?

 

 

 

 

[Mattris 416]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

Your original #FAKENEWS post still stands as a quote by me.

 

At least you quoted me correctly. But is that the best you can do in regards to my arguments?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I and many others have commented on your arguments these last few months. Do you need more?

 

I simply do not agree with you.

[Mattris 416]

12 minutes ago, Holko said:

Ok, I'll write it out yet again, this time so even you'll understand: LUKE. NEVER. CONSCIOUSLY. CONSIDERED. KILLING. HIS. OWN. NEPHEW. IT. WAS. A. MOMENT. OF. PURE. INSTINCT. LIKE. HE. SAYS. IN. THE. FUCKING. FILM.

 

That's some wacked-out instinct... to instantly kill people in their sleep if sensing the Dark Side within their heart? We saw Luke slowly take out his lightsaber, raise it, and ignite it. Luke may have called what he did "instinct" but his specific behavior doesn't seem like instinct to me. And it is definitely not the behavior becoming of the Luke Skywalker we knew - now a Jedi Master with decades of experience and a Jedi Academy.

 

He also said he had sensed darkness building in him in moments during his training. Why didn't he confront Ben face to face, while he was awake? I read that these flashback scenes were a late addition to the film. If that's true, that would partially explain why they feel out of place.

[Holko 9,531]

For fuck's sake, do you know what instinct is? When looking into Ben's mind, Luke saw overwhelming darkness and evil, things coming back which he hasn't seen for 20something years, his first, completely subconscious reaction was to fight it like he did back then, end it before it can begin! Then after his mind cleared and he realised he just drew a weapon on his nephew, he backed out but it was too late. 

Do you know what slow-motion is?

 

Luke is human, Luke makes mistakes. If he wouldn't, you would call him a Gary Stu - oh wait, you wouldn't, because he's male and because he's Luke Skywalker, he can only be a badass perfectness slicing Star Destroyers in half with his saber.

 

 

 

No, he just returns a few months later, cherrypicks a comment or two he can spin to his own way, then expects everyone to dispute all his already disputed idiocies.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Holko said:

No, he just returns a few months later, cherrypicks a comment or two he can spin to his own way, then expects everyone to dispute all his already disputed idiocies.

 

Yep.

 

Loser.

[Mattris 416]

22 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I and many others have commented on your arguments these last few months. Do you need more?

 

I simply do not agree with you.

 

I brought up dozens of examples of movie flaws, negative opinions, and facts regarding the behavior of Lucasfilm employees. And all you have to say is 'you don't agree with me'? Surely you can do better than that.

 

9 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Loser.

 

Getting aggressive aren't we? Must have hit you pretty close to the mark to get you all riled up.

 

You say you like this massively hated film - a film that is the lowest-rated of all the Star Wars saga films... and divided the fan-base. Please remind me, why do you like it? Why don't you pick some of my specific arguments against and attempt to convince me that I'm wrong?