Star Wars Disenchantment

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

Actually, Fraggle Rock is what tried to bring world peace. It apparently didn't succeed either in that regard, but its efforts are at least of greater intrigue than Star Wars.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,589]

On 8/2/2018 at 6:10 AM, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

They're gonna kill... Kennedy! These are... serious... fucking cunts! PLEASE HELP! PLEAAASSEE!

All she wanted to do was to produce...make films. She had this one...this one fucking weakness.

[Jurassic Shark 12,111]

How does it feel, @Richard, to reach 2000 "likes"?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,589]

I didn't know that "likes" could be quantified?

You like me, you really, really like me! 

[Quintus 5,399]

The best thing I saw Bryce Dallas Howard in was Black Mirror. She was very good in her episode. Looks wise, the lady is certainly distinctive. She's uncanny somehow, and yet sometimes when the camera goes in close on her, she can be almost achingly attractive.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

She's got big tits.

[Pellaeon 593]

I haven’t seen any of her work.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

7 hours ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

She's got big tits.

 

[John 2,032]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:52 AM, Mattris said:

... and rarely thanking fans for their business.

 

You make it seem as though the people who have helmed the Star Wars franchise over the years owe their fame and fortune to their fans.

 

By that logic you owe your fortune to your employer.

 

No, it's a simple exchange. The creator of an entertainment doesn't owe you anything even if you're the one(s) that made him famous in the first place. You are not entitled to or owed anything. When you pay to see a movie, you get to see a movie. End of exchange. Nobody owes you more than what you already got.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

If you ignore him, he just might go away! 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

If you build it, he will come.

[Mattris 416]

On 8/4/2018 at 2:46 PM, John said:

You make it seem as though the people who have helmed the Star Wars franchise over the years owe their fame and fortune to their fans.

 

By that logic you owe your fortune to your employer.

 

No, it's a simple exchange. The creator of an entertainment doesn't owe you anything even if you're the one(s) that made him famous in the first place. You are not entitled to or owed anything. When you pay to see a movie, you get to see a movie. End of exchange. Nobody owes you more than what you already got.

 

In your opinion, to whom do "the people who have helmed the Star Wars franchise over the years owe their fame and fortune"?

 

Customers paying a business/individual in exchange for a product, service, or experience is no different than my employer paying me for the work I am assigned to perform. But if I fail to do my job, my employer will fire me.

 

You're right. The creators of an entertainment property don't owe the fans anything even if they're the ones that made them famous in the first place. But when people pay to see a Star Wars (Lucasfilm) movie and don't like what they've seen... and are then insulted by Lucasfilm after concerns are raised, many will choose to cease all exchanges. What evidence do I have? After the fandom was split over what transpired in TLJ, Solo's net was $100-150 million in the red at the worldwide box office. In contrast, Rogue One profited $600 million.

 

Those in charge of Lucasfilm/Disney have to make a decision: Change their ways, or be replaced by those that will satisfy the majority of the public/fans to make the most money possible. Financial losses on a SW film are unheard of and indicate that a deep-seeded problem exists between the creators and the customers.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I agree.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I hope Padme makes a special appearance in Episode 9.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

Natalie Portman's too smart to show up in Star Wars again!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,589]

@Mattris, I'm afraid that it is not the fans that Lucasfilm/Disney have to answer, but rather the shareholders, which are an altogether different animal.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's not even accurate. "Kathleen Blows It"? She probably saved the studio millions of dollars in box office damage alone.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

If only she'd blow me..

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Richard said:

@Mattris, I'm afraid that it is not the fans that Lucasfilm/Disney have to answer, but rather the shareholders, which are an altogether different animal.

 

 

As I'm sure you are aware, the shareholders will base their actions/decisions on a few factors, primarily the company's profits: money spent by the fans (customers) on the products/experiences offered.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,589]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

As I'm sure you are aware, the shareholders will base their actions/decisions on a few factors, primarily the company's profits: money spent by the fans (customers) on the products/experiences offered.

That's exactly my point. The shareholders don't give a rat's ass about the fans, they only care about $.

If bringing back JJ, and Williams, and Fisher will help them make more money, then that's what they'll do, and fuck everything else.

Imo, TLJ was a brave attempt at taking STAR WARS into new territory. Johnson didn't make TLJ for the fans, nor should he have done. The shareholders, however, weren't pleased, and thus began a crusade against one man (and his producer), the result of which could see him not work in Hollywood, again. 

That's what "big money" does to people.

#Big money got no soul#

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

#BigMoneyNoSoul

[Jurassic Shark 12,111]

5 minutes ago, Richard said:

Johnson didn't make TLJ for the fans, nor should he have done. The shareholders, however, weren't pleased, and thus began a crusade against one man (and his producer), the result of which could see him not work in Hollywood, again. 

 

What do you mean by this, Richard? Have I missed something?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's all Illuminati!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,589]

I'd laugh at the above post, if it wasn't so close to the truth.

 

12 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

What do you mean by this, Richard? Have I missed something?

At this time, Johnson is a Hollywood pariah. 

Look at what happened to Spacey: forced into exile on the back of one unsubstantiated accusation. 

Tinseltown builds 'em up, and it knocks 'em down, and it takes great pleasure in doing both.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Johnson is still writing and directing 3 Star Wars movies for Lucasfilm and Disney.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,589]

I wish I had your confidence. Soon, Disney will drop him like a stone, but, hey, if I'm wring, I'm wrong, and when the time comes, I'll admit it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Like with the female Doctor?

[Jurassic Shark 12,111]

14 minutes ago, Richard said:

I'd laugh at the above post, if it wasn't so close to the truth.

 

At this time, Johnson is a Hollywood pariah. 

Look at what happened to Spacey: forced into exile on the back of one unsubstantiated accusation. 

Tinseltown builds 'em up, and it knocks 'em down, and it takes great pleasure in doing both.

 

Johnson has yet to get accusations leveled against him regarding, well, his Johnson. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,589]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Like with the female Doctor?

 I don't remember being in any way "wrong", about Whittaker, but if she proves herself a worthy Doctor, then I'll acknowledge that. We'll find out in October, won't we? 

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

Johnson is far from a Hollywood pariah. He’s going to be fine.

 

I am a bit surprised, however, that Disney hasn’t pulled the plug on his new trilogy. And I wouldn’t be surprised if they do.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Why would they? His movie was alright.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I like it!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Is his name really that toxic among SW fans now?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Spoken by true fans only in hushed whispers and with loud curses, as they shake their fists at the sky.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

So this is how democracy dies...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, Jerry said:

So this is how liberty dies...

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

So this is how JWFan dies...

[Mattris 416]

19 hours ago, Richard said:

That's exactly my point. The shareholders don't give a rat's ass about the fans, they only care about $.

If bringing back JJ, and Williams, and Fisher will help them make more money, then that's what they'll do, and fuck everything else.

Imo, TLJ was a brave attempt at taking STAR WARS into new territory. Johnson didn't make TLJ for the fans, nor should he have done. The shareholders, however, weren't pleased, and thus began a crusade against one man (and his producer), the result of which could see him not work in Hollywood, again. 

That's what "big money" does to people.

#Big money got no soul#

 

In regards to the state of SW, I can only hope that the Disney shareholders have expressed the difference between short-term profit and long-term sustainability to Iger and Co.

 

19 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Johnson has yet to get accusations leveled against him regarding, well, his Johnson. 

 

Well, he did just delete 20,000 of his personal Tweets "just to be safe".

 

18 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

Johnson is far from a Hollywood pariah. He’s going to be fine.

 

I am a bit surprised, however, that Disney hasn’t pulled the plug on his new trilogy. And I wouldn’t be surprised if they do.

 

 

Johnson did say a few months ago that he was "doing just fine" but I seriously doubt that's true. Disney has probably already pulled the plug on his SW trilogy, which was announced before TLJ was released.

 

18 hours ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Why would they? His movie was alright.

 

While having a high production value and some good performances (and superb score!), TLJ is massively flawed and does a disservice to many aspects of the SW lore and characters. I suggest you read this topic from the beginning, if you dare... and have the time.

 

18 hours ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Is his name really that toxic among SW fans now?

 

Yes.

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

29 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Johnson did say he was "doing just fine" but I seriously doubt that's true... and would bet that Disney has already pulled the plug on his SW trilogy, which was announced before TLJ was released.

 

I agree that there's a decent chance Johnson's Star Wars trilogy will be cancelled (if it hasn't been already).  And if it does happen, I don't think it will be a reflection of the artistic merits of TLJ (whatever one thinks of it), or Disney/LFL's faith in him. And I don't think it will be because they think the fans who hated his film were right.

 

Rather, I think it will just be an acknowledgement of reality...Star Wars simply cannot be as successful as Disney needs it to be, especially for non-Saga films, if you've a alienated loud and passionate segment of the fan base. I think they're a minority, but a significant minority and loud one at that. These are people Disney needs to see the films multiple times, buy the products, hype the films online, etc. Disney is going to need these fans now that they hype has died down. They'll be crucial during the lean times. Star Wars is going to need all the fan goodwill it can get once they're done in Episode IX.  It's easier to let Johnson go than deal with the headache. My guess is Kennedy will be gone at some point as well. Or if not gone, then at least she'll see someone brought in to oversee the creative direction of the series.  But I suppose we'll see...I'm just speculating.

 

All that said, in terms of greater Hollywood, Johnson will be more than fine. I don't think any other studio cares that he's annoyed a vocal minority of Star Wars fans. He's a good director, no matter what you think of TLJ.

 

 

[Arpy 4,145]

Well, that's the curious thing about the backlash to TLJ concerning RJ. From what we know, he had a good working relationship with the producers, the cast et al. the production went smoothly, with enough time to make adjustments to the film in post, and the film was projected to do well, not as overwhelmingly positive as The Force Awakens, but expected to perform well enough. 

 

Then it was released, the critics gave a positive reception to the film and then the influx of hatred came pouring in. I don't care much for public opinion, the audience scores etc. so for me I wasn't exposed to the hatred until after I'd come home from the theatre and started to see all this bullshit online and it came down to these truly deluded fans who thought they were toyed with, who felt they'd been abused by an underwhelming Star Wars film, like it was their child that had been snatched in the night, with campaigns, to bring the franchise to a screeching halt.

 

It's dampened my enjoyment of all the films, and the newer ones when you know in the back of your head that everyone around you despises them.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I thought Star Wars fans loved johnson.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

.While having a high production value and some good performances (and superb score!), TLJ is massively flawed and does a disservice to many aspects of the SW lore ad characters. I suggest you read this topic from the beginning... if you dare!

 

 

Sounds like you didn't mind the movie either. I bet you secretly loved it!

[Mattris 416]

On 8/5/2018 at 5:10 PM, Nick1066 said:

 

I agree that there's a decent chance Johnson's Star Wars trilogy will be cancelled (if it hasn't been already).  And if it does happen, I don't think it will be a reflection of the artistic merits of TLJ (whatever one thinks of it), or Disney/LFL's faith in him. And I don't think it will be because they think the fans who hated his film were right.

 

Rather, I think it will just be an acknowledgement of reality...Star Wars simply cannot be as successful as Disney needs it to be, especially for non-Saga films, if you've a alienated loud and passionate segment of the fan base. I think they're a minority, but a significant minority and loud one at that. These are people Disney needs to see the films multiple times, buy the products, hype the films online, etc. Disney is going to need these fans now that they hype has died down. They'll be crucial during the lean times. Star Wars is going to need all the fan goodwill it can get once they're done in Episode IX.  It's easier to let Johnson go than deal with the headache. My guess is Kennedy will be gone at some point as well. Or if not gone, then at least she'll see someone brought in to oversee the creative direction of the series.  But I suppose we'll see...I'm just speculating.

 

All that said, in terms of greater Hollywood, Johnson will be more than fine. I don't think any other studio cares that he's annoyed a vocal minority of Star Wars fans. He's a good director, no matter what you think of TLJ.

 

 

 

If Johnson's Star Wars trilogy is cancelled, you don't think it will be a reflection of...

 

... the artistic merits of TLJ? While art is inherently subjective, most of the character arcs and significant plot elements in TLJ were objectively designed to subvert the fans' expectations. Johnson admitted this. He made the movie to satisfy KK's agenda... and to fuck with the fans (the "half of the audience that would leave the theater saying it was the worst movie they've ever seen.")

 

... Disney/LFL's faith in him. Faith in him to do what, exactly? Make a movie smoothly, under-budget, with time to spare? That's not the purpose of a movie, is it? With a fanbase so large and enthusiastic, one would expect Disney/LFL to have greater aspirations with their films. It wouldn't surprise me if pushing feminism and identity politics is high on their list of priorities.

 

... they think the fans who hated his film were right. In business, the customer is always right*. Though, not the same can be said with art... or propaganda.

 

* if the business' primary goals are to make the most money possible and gain the trust of the customer

 

On 8/5/2018 at 7:08 PM, Arpy said:

Well, that's the curious thing about the backlash to TLJ concerning RJ. From what we know, he had a good working relationship with the producers, the cast et al. the production went smoothly, with enough time to make adjustments to the film in post, and the film was projected to do well, not as overwhelmingly positive as The Force Awakens, but expected to perform well enough. 

 

Then it was released, the critics gave a positive reception to the film and then the influx of hatred came pouring in. I don't care much for public opinion, the audience scores etc. so for me I wasn't exposed to the hatred until after I'd come home from the theatre and started to see all this bullshit online and it came down to these truly deluded fans who thought they were toyed with, who felt they'd been abused by an underwhelming Star Wars film, like it was their child that had been snatched in the night, with campaigns, to bring the franchise to a screeching halt.

 

It's dampened my enjoyment of all the films, and the newer ones when you know in the back of your head that everyone around you despises them.

 

I'll remind you that Mark Hamill told RJ that he "fundamentally disagreed with nearly everything he had written for his character."

 

With all that "time to make adjustments to the film in post" the editing could have been better. 2-5% of the final film (the dragging/political/sad attempt at comedy bits) should have be cut, with most of the deleted scenes re-incorporated.

 

My guess is that "the critics gave a positive reception to the film" because they appreciated its political statements and numerous 'strong' women. "I wasn't exposed to the hatred until after I'd come home from the theatre" either. But I did leave disappointed. The fans didn't think "they were toyed with" and "abused by an underwhelming Star Wars film", they were... because at almost every juncture in the film, something happens that is unlike SW they've come to expect and look forward to. Off the top of my mind:

 

- The film's action opens with a prank call.

- General Leia was shown not in charge of the Resistance Fleet.

- Luke Skywalker tossed his old lightsaber over a cliff - behind his back, no less - in a comical fashion.

- Luke ignored Rey for an extended period of time... refused to leave the planet even when told that Leia and the Resistance were on the verge of being killed... and that Han had already been killed.

- Admiral Akbar was unceremoniously killed.

- Leia was sucked into space from a hull explosion... and subsequently floated back to the ship. And after a short time, was walking around again like nothing happened. This event was never addressed or explained, and no other characters mention it.

- The interim commander (a tall woman with dyed purple hair) repeatedly declined to tell Poe her plan and does not give a reason.

- Luke reluctantly (and briefly) trained Rey. But only two of the "three lessons" were shown.

- Force-strong Kylo had trouble defeating a few non-Force-wielding guardsmen. And to win the battle, Kylo needed Rey... with her only previous lightsaber training being the duel with Kylo... that she won.

- SJW, feminism, politics throughout. (Rose and Canto Bight!)

- All men in the film are shown to be flawed and/or emasculated.

- Jedi Master Luke Skywalker was shown consciously considering killing his nephew in cold blood.

 

This movie did worse than bring "the franchise to a screeching halt". It sent it backwards. In Ep. 9, my guess is that JJ will have to ret-con, ignore, or explain-away most of the major events of TLJ.

 

I'm sorry this situation has dampened your enjoyment of all the SW films. These new ones have made me appreciate all of the older ones even more. I didn't see that coming. Subverted again!

 

On 8/5/2018 at 10:02 PM, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

Sounds like you didn't mind the movie either. I bet you secretly loved it!

 

Nope.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,345]

1 hour ago, Cherry Pie That'll Kill Ya said:

 

 

Sounds like you didn't mind the movie either. I bet you secretly loved it!

[Arpy 4,145]

57 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

I'll remind you that Mark Hamill told RJ that he "fundamentally disagreed with nearly everything he had written for his character."

 

I'll remind you that pages and pages ago I addressed this by saying that context matters. Hamill said that he fundamentally disagreed with RJ on his character, but that his growth as an actor was being able to come to terms with and accept that the directors' vision. 

 

Quote

“Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private,” he continued. “All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that.”

 

[Holko 9,539]

That list of problems yet again goes from little semi-reasonable problems to fundamentally misunderstanding events in the movie, or stupid shit like only two lessons were shown. Yeah, because in movie canon Rey grew disillusioned and impatient and left before the third!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

SJW, feminism, politics throughout. (Rose and Canto Bight!)

 

Why is that wrong? You may disagree with these politics, but it is not out of line for Star Wars. Remember all the politics in the Prequels?

[A24 4,352]

They are strange blend of kid stuff and politics. Fun for the whole family?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Something for everyone!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I guess it's just unfortunate that they're trying to adapt SW to be more acceptable to the angry, fat, misandrist nerdy chicks who live on Tumblr, have double degrees in queer/gender studies, dye their hair purple and wear those trendy rectangle glasses?