Potterdom Film/Score Series Thread

[Justin 2]

I personally would love to hear Doyle come back for another go. Lord knows the man gets little work of the type elsewhere.

Justin

[nightscape94 965]

Because Williams does it better.

Tim

[King Mark 3,631]

I personally would love to hear Doyle come back for another go. Lord knows the man gets little work of the type elsewhere.

Justin

I don't know what to make of such a remark.It's like you just said that to display a "I'm above all you fanboys..." kind of attitude.

K.M.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I personally would love to hear Doyle come back for another go. Lord knows the man gets little work of the type elsewhere.

Justin

I don't know what to make of such a remark.It's like you just said that to display a "I'm above all you fanboys..." kind of attitude.

K.M.

What do you mean? He gave a personal opinion, and actually backed it up in two short sentences. Not bad at all.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Just going to say the same thing. It's your kind of attitude that displays a narrow "if it's not Williams, it's not worth it" attitude, KM.

[King Mark 3,631]

bla bla bla

k.m.

[futuremartymcfly 0]

As i posted somewhere else i thought that the fourth film was the second weakest of the seiries (behind COS). The score is not bad, but not amazing either, but i must say I love doyle's arrangements of Hedwig's theme, and they provide a listen almost as good as Williams'

Invading Elliot's house

[Sobky 0]

I want to ask is Voldemort's theme in GoF the same as The Goblet of fire theme??

[gkgyver 1,646]

Lord knows the man gets little work of the type elsewhere.  

And for obvious reasons.

Just because someone hasn't scored many films of a particular genre doesn't mean that he is the right man for the job.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Realizing and accepting that Doyle's score is overall weaker than Williams' two full-fledged Potter scores does not make one a tunnel-visioned fanboy.

Ray Barnsbury - who nonetheless quite enjoys most of Doyle's effort

[cmu2401 0]

Reading the interview with Mike Newell (about Goblet of Fire) in the latest "Music from the Movies" issue is very interesting, particularly the part where he said he asked Doyle to hold off from making something too melodic.

I watched the movie again this weekend and was very impressed with the Maze scene, and the final confrontation with Voldemort, and the whole Hogwarts March thing when he came back with Cedric. I was kind of indifferent on the question before but now I would like to see Doyle have another crack at it.

[gkgyver 1,646]

he asked Doyle to hold off from making something too melodic.  

Well, that fits into the picture.

[Justin 2]

Realizing and accepting that Doyle's score is overall weaker than Williams' two full-fledged Potter scores does not make one a tunnel-visioned fanboy.

I don't think anyone is saying that. In fact I doubt there is anyone on this board who thinks GoF is a stronger score than either PS or PoA.

Justin - Who knows Ray is a tunnel-visioned fanboy anyway.

[nightscape94 965]

I want to ask is Voldemort's theme in GoF the same as The Goblet of fire theme??

Please note there are some SPOILERS ahead!!!!!!

I was curious about that too. It is the same, even though you're not suppose to realize it from the beginning, and in the end it's not really the Goblet theme. At first, it sounds like an ominous Goblet theme, because the rising notes are used to portray its power at the beginning and during every mention of it, but then the theme used during the grave yard scene to accompany Voldemort. So in essence, its Voldemort's theme, which is tied to the Goblet since it is ultimately used as a portkey to send Harry to him. There's supposed to be this aura that something is not quite right, and that there are forces in the background working against Harry. It's more clear upon repeat viewings, but saddly, because of the manner in which the theme is constructed and used, you become too aware of this fact, and the influence loses effect because you already know what happens and what it means.

That's kind of the downside to music in movies. Once you associate a theme with a charater or an idea, subtle hints no longer seem so subtle.

Tim

[JoeinAR 1,949]

The Doyle score is the weakest of the 4 Potter scores.

Each of the 3 Williams scores have outstanding ques that stand aside the great Williams cues of past, nothing in GOF, can do that, nothing.

[John Crichton 4]

Gotta agree. The main word I've thought of about Doyle's score has always been "mediocre", to an extreme. There's nothing really bad that I have to say about it, other than I really don't have much of anything good to say about it. The Yule Ball waltzes are nice, and there are a couple of good statements of Hedwig's Theme (main titles and end credits, the in-film ones are so-so). That's about it.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I listend to GoF again today, and I will say that it creates a very distinct, unsettling feeling throughout, as characterized by the Voldemort/Goblet theme and similarly uneasy music. I noticed and liked this in the film as well. I have nothing against Doyle's score, and I really love parts of it, like the opening track, both lovely waltzes, "Hogwart's March" and "Hogwarts' Hymn," and "Another Year Ends." Still, many tracks, especially the action ones, lack the structure and finesse many film composers are capable of (though I really like "The Black Lake"). And those frequent sheer brass crescendos seem amateur-ish at best (like at the end of "Frank Dies" and "The Dark Mark").

Ray Barnsbury

[cmu2401 0]

I like both composers approaches for the different movies, but I honestly don't think Williams would have handled the final confrontation with Voldemort in the same way. I think he would have made it a lot more busy, as is his tendency. Lord knows Doyle's music can be busy too, but it just didn't happen to be in this film, which I think was the right approach. I was sort of underwhelmed with The Black Lake actually.

And I know Williams wasn't responsible for this, but I know William Ross tried to copy his scoring style as much as possible in the second film... which I just watched on the Disney Channel, and cringed every time they showed those spiders crawling and the score just went into full mickey mouse mode. I am very glad Doyle didn't attempt to copy THAT approach, even if that meant using "not enough notes."

I find in general that Doyle's approach to scoring films is deeper psychologically, he does not tend to hang his scores on many "signature" themes attached to different characters, although he focused on Voldemort in this one. For instance the "Harry in Winter" music does not stand for any particular person or relationship, you hear it when he is with Cho Chang and also when his parents return at the end. It's the "anti-Voldemort" theme (represents love, or what Voldemort called "the old magic" that Harry's mother used to save Harry's life).

I can understand why people used to a half dozen different themes might be disappointed - but that isn't Doyle's way of thematic development. (All I can say is, thank God we didn't get William Ross aping John Williams again... endless trills and runs... that would have been horrible, even in the action sequences.)

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Williams would have included Fawkes theme in the finally, and he would have written a much better theme for Voldemort, and while the Hogwarts hymn is ok, John would have written something that Doyle could never do in his best moment.

(All I can say is, thank God we didn't get William Ross aping John Williams again... endless trills and runs... that would have been horrible, even in the action sequences.)

Ross didn't ape Williams, all the new music in COS is all Williams, not Ross, or did you not know this. AS we ALL know Williams was not satisfied with Ross' contribution and provided more music than the 40 minutes he was originally going to provide. And once again, there is nothing in GOF, that even approaches the greatness of the COS theme, or Fawkes Theme

[cmu2401 0]

I guess I didn't want to believe Williams did the spider thing.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

why the spider music is terrific, also better than anything in GOF

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I like both composers approaches for the different movies, but I honestly don't think Williams would have handled the final confrontation with Voldemort in the same way.

He would have used his terrific Voldemort theme. On the other hand, the return to the maze is awesome the way it's now (with that silly Hogwarts March playing in the background), I don't think it would have been this way with Williams.

I think he would have made it a lot more busy, as is his tendency.   Lord knows Doyle's music can be busy too, but it just didn't happen to be in this film, which I think was the right approach.  I was sort of underwhelmed with The Black Lake actually.

But The Black Lake is terrific! I'm somewhat underwhelmed by much of the other action music (yes, Doyle can be more busy, and at times he probably should have been, although I've warmed up to much of it), but the lake cue is a standout.

Marian - who still thinks the Yule Ball wouldn't have been handled as well by Williams (not counting those horrible songs).

[gkgyver 1,646]

I like both composers approaches for the different movies, but I honestly don't think Williams would have handled the final confrontation with Voldemort in the same way.

Of course he wouldn't have handled it the same way.

What I don't like about the graveyard scene, and the rest of GoF to get that straight, is that Doyle doesn't bring up the guts to detach himself from the picture, except during the Priori Incantatem scene (which is about the only scene in GoF that works as it should).

In such important scenes, I love it when the music transcends the film, like Buckbeak's Flight for instance or Aunt Marge's Waltz.

[Morlock 11]

John would have written something that Doyle could never do in his best moment.

I guess you're ot too familiar with Doyle's best moment' date=' as they can be pretty mind blowing.

JW would probably would have provided a friggin' brilliant version of the Hogwarts theme. I think for Voldermort, he'd probably create a new theme with fragments of the first (fantastic) one.

I like both composers approaches for the different movies' date=' but I honestly don't think Williams would have handled the final confrontation with Voldemort in the same way.[/quote']

He would have done it so, so much better, really making you not notice the singularly unimpressive look of the scene.

I think he would have made it a lot more busy, as is his tendency. Lord knows Doyle's music can be busy too, but it just didn't happen to be in this film, which I think was the right approach. I was sort of underwhelmed with The Black Lake actually.

But The Black Lake is terrific! I'm somewhat underwhelmed by much of the other action music (yes, Doyle can be more busy, and at times he probably should have been, although I've warmed up to much of it), but the lake cue is a standout.

I totally disagree, it's quite subpar for Doyle. Certainly nowhere near the same level as JW's Quidditch cues from the first and third films, two of his finest action cues, if you ask me.

Marian - who still thinks the Yule Ball wouldn't have been handled as well by Williams (not counting those horrible songs).

I also disagree here. In general, I think this score's gentler moments are it's weekest points. The Hymn and the love theme are so unimpressive when you concider what glorious themes Doyle has created for Frankenstein, Great Expectations, or Little Princess. Though, I must admit, the waltz is groing on (though still not as good as 'Cristina Elisa Waltz'). And the dark moments mostly sound like weak imitations of Frankenstein. The only time the dark stuf really works for me is at the very begining, and in the maze scene, when he just blatantly Horners his action ostinato.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I totally disagree, it's quite subpar for Doyle. Certainly nowhere near the same level as JW's Quidditch cues from the first and third films, two of his finest action cues, if you ask me.

The first Quidditch cue is great. The one from the third score is a top-notch Williams fugato. I'd expect few film composers to match that. But after getting used to it, I do think that The Black Lake is a great cue. I didn't say it's Doyle's greatest, though.

I also disagree here. In general, I think this score's gentler moments are it's weekest points.

I was seriously underwhelmed at first, but these moments in particular have grown the most on me.

The Hymn and the love theme are so unimpressive when you concider what glorious themes Doyle has created for Frankenstein, Great Expectations, or Little Princess. Though, I must admit, the waltz is groing on (though still not as good as 'Cristina Elisa Waltz').

I only know Great Expectations from the movie, and I'm afraid I've never seen or heard Little Princess. Frankenstein is great of course, and I doubt Doyle will ever write a better love theme (and few others will). Those little dance variations on it (shamefully missing from the CD) therefore are standout cues as well. But overall, while I'm still surprised at how restrained his Potter score is, I'm convinced it works better this way than if he'd done it in full over-the-top Frankenstein mode.

Marian - who currently has a hard time imagining both a Williams and a Doyle OOTP score.

[Justin 2]

I'm sure no one will agree with me but I absolutly adore "Golden Egg". One of the best tracks of the year. The brass statements of Harry's theme are spine tinglingly awesome.

Justin

[Henry B 50]

I only know Great Expectations from the movie, and I'm afraid I've never seen or heard Little Princess. Frankenstein is great of course, and I doubt Doyle will ever write a better love theme (and few others will). Those little dance variations on it (shamefully missing from the CD) therefore are standout cues as well. But overall, while I'm still surprised at how restrained his Potter score is, I'm convinced it works better this way than if he'd done it in full over-the-top Frankenstein mode.

Ah, Little Princess is excellent. The big musical payoff at the end ("Papa!") made me cry when I saw it a couple months ago.

Good call on "The Black Lake." I'd forgotten that that was actually a good cue. The rest of the score? Nahhhh. Pretty much every rendition of Hedwig's theme is great to hear, though. Doyle can orchestrate very well when he's working with a theme such as Hedwig's. There wasn't much to do with his own, however.

[Marcus 390]

Greetings everyone! First of all, let me just tell you how delightful it is to see that so many share the enthusiasm for John Williams' music, and enthusiasm I myself was smitten with many years ago! And I think it is truly wonderful that we all recognize the medium of film music, arguably the most culturally relevant form of symphonic music today. It is therefore all the more welcome when composers such as Maestro Williams contribute such outstanding music in its own right. Sadly, since the loss of Jerry Goldsmith over a year and a half ago, there aren't too many really great musicians left in Hollywood...Thankfully, we have the great privelege and pleasure of being sonically graced and adorned by Williams, who is perhaps the greatest talent ever to write for film. Yes, even though I absolutely love and adore the scores of such greats as Korngold, Rozsa, Herrmann and North, not to mention Goldsmith, I think Williams has grown to become simply one of the deepest and most sincere musical craftsmen known to me. I would rather like to compare him with Haydn, the historical figure whose life in music somehow resembles Williams' the most, as they both spent a lifetime serving an industry, and somehow through that servitude attained a level of mastery that is sublime and awesome.

Please forgive me for making this a rather lengthy entry, but as this is my first post, I would like it to be a proper introduction. Let me quickly state that I am a composer, and one who has the great good fortune to enjoy a professional career.

Now on to this thread, and what prompts my jwfan-debut: I really have to say that, from a purely musical point of view, Patrick Doyle (who is a fine film composer), or any other living composer known to me, for that matter, really will not stand comparison to any effort of Williams', as Doyle simply lacks the skill and depth of a composer of Williams' stature. I think the reality is, since Williams reached what we must deem his musical adulthood, which I guess in film would be ca. mid to late 1960's, and a little earlier, judging from his concert catalog, his work has far outshone most contributions made by his colleagues. Granted, we will all have certain personal favorites, but I don't think there is such a thing as a truly weak entry in his catalog, which is frankly quite astonishing, although I suppose this too stems from vast amounts of experience, the only thing which will render an artist a master. I realise there must be plenty of composers here, and would love to talk shop, and I guess the place to do it would be the composer's thread... I have studied and transcribed tons of Williams scores, and think I can humbly state that I have at this point a fairly thorough understanding of Williams' craft from a technical point of view, and would love to share my observations with anyone who'd be interested.

Thank you for your attention, and hooray! for our mutual fascination with one of the greatest composers of all time!

Sincerely,

Marcus

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Now on to this thread, and what prompts my jwfan-debut: I really have to say that, from a purely musical point of view, Patrick Doyle (who is a fine film composer), or any other living composer known to me, for that matter, really will not stand comparison to any effort of Williams',

2 words.

Jerry Goldsmith

(Welcome, hope you can find your way around here Marcus? 8O )

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Jerry Goldsmith is alive?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's not really gone as long as we remember him.

His music is very much alive for me Marc.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

That's a poor excuse for misreading, my friend.

Still, I don't think all of Williams' work belongs solely at the very top of film scores. There are plenty of composers who have also written great scores. But the impact his popular scores have had are probably the largest of any film composer of the modern day.

[Marcus 390]

Mr.Breathmask, I certainly agree that there are many composers who have written great scores, although I do detect a decline in Hollywood in terms of craftsmanship...One problem is the "MediaVentures"-tendency, which sometimes reduces the art of film scoring to mere sonic tapestry, which can be effective, and I'm certainly not one to disrespect Hans Zimmer and co., but the industry has changed, and so has its demands on composers, and subsequently the artform and the craft associated with being a film composer.

But you are right, and, most importantly, the issue is to recognize the potency of film music, and the great contribution made by the many talented composers employed by the industry.

By the way, whatever happened to Joel McNeely? Does anybody know?

We all have our personal favorites as far as film scores go, and I never meant to imply that the greatest scores of the last 40 years were all penned by John Williams, but I do think one would be hard pressed to find anything less than musically excellent in his catalog.And among living composers, I can't think of anyone who would rival his mastery even in their most inspired moments, simply because their chops would likely not permit it. That is not to say that great, really great music cannot be written by other composers, even other living composers in Hollywood today. But compared to the Hollywood film music scene of the 40's through the 80's, todays scene, with the exception of John Williams' contributions, is generally lacking, from the perspective of compositional craft. Generally, not always...

All best,

Marcus

[tpigeon 3]

I'm sure no one will agree with me but I absolutly adore "Golden Egg". One of the best tracks of the year. The brass statements of Harry's theme are spine tinglingly awesome.

Justin

Agreed. Some of the brass statements are amazing. I'm thinking of one in particular around the 2:30 mark in the cue, which in the film, is the moment accompanying when Harry's broom arrives and he leaps on. Great stuff.

Ted

[Panthera 0]

I'm sure no one will agree with me but I absolutly adore "Golden Egg". One of the best tracks of the year. The brass statements of Harry's theme are spine tinglingly awesome.

Justin

I love it too

[John Crichton 4]

MuggleNet has some OotP filming updates up today. The important bits:

- Gary Oldman WILL be back as Sirius. This had been in question the last few weeks.

- The expected release date is summer/fall 2007, with HBP coming out in late 2008. The first OotP trailer is expected to be released late this year.

- Filming is well underway, with scenes in the Room of Requirement, Umbridge's DADA classes, and the Forbidden Forest (including the centaurs and Grawp) in the bag.

John- happy to be posting HP news again.

[Panthera 0]

I'm wondering why it is going to take two years for this movie to be finished and only one year for the 6th one.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

It'll be taking the same amount of time as between the last two movies, Panthera - roughly 18 months.

[nightscape94 965]

I know this CD was mentioned before, but can someone confirm if it's any good?  It's performed by the City of Prague Philharmonic and contains music from all four films.  So, please don't start on a rant about how much you hate Doyle or whatever.  I'm just curous about the quality of sound and performance.  It has a 6:30min version of the end credit suite for PoA, and I didn't know what it was like.  The film version is a cut and paste edit job, but I assume the one on this CD is a straight through performance with a different arrangement.

Anyone have any info?

Tim

Well? I'm really curious about this release.

[King Mark 3,631]

I've finally listened to the complete c.d. of GOF.Some decent cues(by that I mean nothing near Williams calliber) in the first half of the c.d.,then the music goes nowhere whatsoever,especially the action sequences.

K.M.Who was previouly bashing it according to what he heard in the film,but hasn't heard anything new to make him change his mind.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I've finally listened to the complete c.d. of GOF.

You sat through the Jarvis Cock-up songs?

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

You know I pride myself on the fact that, even after owning the CD for three months now, I have not listened to those last three tracks once yet. I've heard snippets in the film, but I can't remember any of it. I didn't bother putting them on my iPod.

[Panthera 0]

Some unreleased music from The Goblet of Fire that I like:

1. The portkey music.

2. (Don't know exactly what to call this) The transition music where it shows the tower in the rain and it is right after a scene in the trophy room.

3. The music when Hermione is coming down the stairs.

I'll add a bit more after I watch the rest of the movie.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I usually load the entire CD onto my iPod, even if there's crappy songs, but after a while, I had to ditch the Cocker crap. Shuffle kept ending up at Do the Hippogriff, so all of a sudden that bumhead would be screaming into my ears out of nowhere.

[gkgyver 1,646]

In case Williams doesn't do OotP, who do you think will do it? Has David Yates his trademark composer, I don't know anything about him?

[John Crichton 4]

I wouldn't be suprised if they tried to get Doyle back. His score seems to be pretty well recieved, except here. But we're more right.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this David Yates first movie directed?

[gkgyver 1,646]

His score seems to be pretty well recieved, except here.

I don't really see that.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Doyle's score was a bit too MV-like for my tastes, but whatever tickles your fancy.

[Panthera 0]

isn't this David Yates first movie directed?

Not sure, but if it is and he does a really good job then this will be great for his career.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Order of the Phoenix has a new release date, July 13th, 2007