Does anybody ENJOY Star Wars anymore?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,554]

Ok, so that accounts for about three of screen time. Anything else?... Anyone?...  Anyone?... Bueller?... Bueller?

[Chen G. 3,951]

16 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Which one Lucas' ideas made it into Ep. VII?

 

A young "gearhead" orphan girl, living on an arid junkyard planet, who goes with a sidekick on a quest to find the now-reclusive, aged Luke Skywalker, comes across the Millennium Falcon in her journey, all while being menaced by a masked "Jedi killer" who had been considered during Lucas' tenture as possibly being Han Solo's son...all that stuff is from Lucas' synopsis.

 

The changes Lucas seems to have objected to are having the Jedi Killer murder Han Solo, and having Starkiller Base. Otherwise, its the same basic movie.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,554]

So... STAR WARS writ large.

[Chen G. 3,951]

1 minute ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

So... STAR WARS writ large.

 

Well, Lucas is the kind of filmmaker who has one or two basic movies premises rattling around in his head, and does them over and over again in different guises, always trying to "get it right this time."

[Tallguy 3,402]

I mean, if anything of "Good guys and bad guys both trying to find a thing and bad guys trying to kill good guys" is just a remake of Star Wars. That seems pretty broad. I think people saying TFA is just a remake of Star Wars is pretty broad as well.

[Andy 4,147]

52 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The changes Lucas seems to have objected to are having the Jedi Killer murder Han Solo, and having Starkiller Base. Otherwise, its the same basic movie.

Dang. They should’ve went with George on both of those. 

[Chen G. 3,951]

Eh. I like Han's death.

 

The whole bloodless "everyone lives happily ever after and nothing bad ever happens to anyone" approach (inspired by Bruno Bettelheim) was the bane of Return of the Jedi and the special edition of Star Wars.

[Tallguy 3,402]

I wonder what it's like seeing Han's death as an actual dramatic moment and not "the only thing that would make Ford come back"?

 

Actually, Han Ghost saying "I know" to Ben in TRoS was the most emotional moment in the ST for me.

[Andy 4,147]

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Actually, Han Ghost saying "I know" to Ben in TRoS was the most emotional moment in the ST for me.

Yes!

 

Obviously they don’t all live happily ever after, but I don’t like seeing my heroes die on screen. Luke, Han, Leia, Captain Kirk… all unsatisfying. 

[Schilkeman 964]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Well, Lucas is the kind of filmmaker who has one or two basic movies premises rattling around in his head, and does them over and over again in different guises, always trying to "get it right this time."

Of all the things you say that I disagree with, which is almost everything lol, this is the one I do most vociferously. Indiana Jones is nothing like Star Wars, except in pulp-feel, nor Radioland Murders or Red Tails.
 

His first three films are similar in theme (throw in Strange Magic), but wildly different in execution. The two shows he was directly involved in have some coming of age storylines, but vary in theme from episode to episode and arc to arc. Even the prequels are an inversion of the original trilogy. 
 

I think your thesis is reductive and inaccurate.

[Tallguy 3,402]

2 hours ago, Andy said:

Obviously they don’t all live happily ever after, but I don’t like seeing my heroes die on screen. Luke, Han, Leia, Captain Kirk… all unsatisfying. 

 

Funny enough I just found my wife watching TROS. It was the end of the movie. All the idiotic over the top ridiculousness of it. (Palpatine never gets a MOMENT of "I've got to SAVE him!" that the other child killers get.) And I am AMAZED at how well everything works on a purely emotional level.

 

(JJ), how do you write (Star Wars) so well?
I think of a (real movie), and I take away reason and accountability.

 

I caught when Ben dies. And he vanishes and his clothes collapse. And at the same moment so does Leia. (And Johnny is all over it of course. It's not The Empire Strikes Back, but he's still playing us like fiddles.) AND IT WORKS! Damn you JJ! Imagine if you were GOOD!

[Datameister 2,044]

3 hours ago, Tallguy said:

I mean, if anything of "Good guys and bad guys both trying to find a thing and bad guys trying to kill good guys" is just a remake of Star Wars. That seems pretty broad. I think people saying TFA is just a remake of Star Wars is pretty broad as well.

TFA in its entirety is not just a remake, but there are enough parts of it that are.

• Young rebel hero captured by baddie in a black mask in opening battle
• MacGuffin is a computer file sent by said hero into the desert in the memory banks of a cute, round droid that speaks in beeps and is briefly captured by small alien scavengers 
• Baddies pursue said droid as it happens to fall into the hands of a young, parent-less nobody (who later turns out to be the Force-sensitive progeny of the big baddie)
• Droid and nobody narrowly escape the desert planet on the Falcon
• The masked baddie doesn't get along with his more straight-laced imperial co-baddies and regularly uses the Force to physically intimidate his subordinates
• The gang is threatened by tentacled, googly-eyed space monsters
• An old man provides wisdom, guidance, and sass
• Old man is lightsabered by the masked baddie (who betrayed him long ago) as the youths look on in horror inside a huge spherical battle station with a planet-killing weapon that threatens the rebel base's jungle planet in a ticking-clock third act wherein X-wings blow up said battle station by attacking its weak spot (after its power was put on display by destroying an important but hitherto-unseen good guy planet in the second act)
• There's a cantina scene somewhere in there

There's plenty of other stuff that's different, but when there's so much that's not, it's impossible to miss. And that's not even including the stuff borrowed from ESB, like the presence of a tiny wizened old alien mentor in the second act and the fact that the masked baddie communes with the big boss in a giant holo-chamber.

 

That being said, it's still my favorite of the sequels. There's a lot to enjoy, and it laid the groundwork for what could have been a really cool trilogy.

[Andy 4,147]

It’s a very imperfect trilogy.  Very imperfect.  But I don’t care, it’s entertaining as hell. Fun performances. Quotable.  I absolutely unironically love Rise of Skywalker.  Again I’m with @Tallguy, it does work emotionally. 

[Datameister 2,044]

I absolutely unironically loved TROS right up until around the time Hux reveals his secret. Then it all spiraled out of control and ultimately hurt my enjoyment of the whole trilogy.

[Chen G. 3,951]

4 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Of all the things you say that I disagree with, which is almost everything lol, this is the one I do most vociferously. Indiana Jones is nothing like Star Wars, except in pulp-feel, nor Radioland Murders or Red Tails.

 

Indiana Jones is a fair bit like Star Wars, and grows directly out of the Second Draft, where Luke was briefly the artist-type. Its no accident Lucas started developing Indiana Jones after he discarded that draft: he couldn't find use for that in Star Wars, so he made it as Indiana Jones. Then he took that same premise, and made it as a Star Wars novella, Splinter of the Mind's Eye. And then much later, The Last Crusade is obviously based on Raiders again.

 

Another Star Wars draft Lucas discarded was the Rough Draft, which he remade as The Phantom Menace. His two Ewok films now come across as a dry-run for Willow, which is itself similar to the original Star Wars. He put a musical number into Return of the Jedi and, being disappointed with the results, immediatley put one into his very next film, Temple of Doom, before returning to Return of the Jedi and "getting it right" with the Special Edition. You can even catch him throwing elements he couldn't  fit into The Empire Strikes Back into the Holiday Special!

 

I'm not saying this necessarily as a condemnation of Lucas: lots of artists do that, including the likes of Bruckner and Bach.

[Schilkeman 964]

The finished film Star Wars bears little resemblance to Raiders of the Lost Ark. It is very debatable how much Lucas was involved with SotME. Foster seemed to imply that Lucas only made requests to take out potentially expensive scenes in case it was used as a film. I can't find anything definitive either way, but he was usually pretty hands-off with books. And employing similar elements is not the same as "making the same movie." That's like saying Beethoven wrote the same symphony 8 times because they all share orchestration, form, and motivic development. Or that all Spielberg films are about daddy issues. But I feel like we're repeating ourselves with our Wagner debate.

 

Lucas's films have a feel that is shared across their totality (Spielberg's "George Lucas Pictures"), and some share similar themes and ideas, but the execution is different. Things get inverted, re-contextualized, and expanded from film to film. The TV shows do not repeat the films they're based on. His interests naturally show up in the stuff he made and/or produced, but that doesn't make them all the same, and I still think it's a reductive way to look at his work.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,554]

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Eh. I like Han's death.

 

The whole bloodless "everyone lives happily ever after and nothing bad ever happens to anyone" approach (inspired by Bruno Bettelheim) was the bane of Return of the Jedi and the special edition of Star Wars.

 

Darth Vader sacrifices his own life to save his son, and gets turned into KFC in the process.

I don't call that "bloodless".

[Chen G. 3,951]

16 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Darth Vader sacrifices his own life to save his son, and gets turned into KFC in the process.

 

That's very true. Bettelheim's influence on Lucas is ultimately more rhetorical than anything else. But it can be felt at the fringes of Return of the Jedi, and in some of the Special Edition changes.

[Schilkeman 964]

23 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

Darth Vader sacrifices his own life to save his son, and gets turned into KFC in the process.

I don't call that "bloodless".

"Son, let me tell you about a man named Gary Kurtz..." is one of the funniest things I ever read at theforce.net. The belief that RotJ was the beginning of the end of good Star Wars starts with him. And I don't think psychoanalytics invented, "and they all lived happily ever after," which isn't even true. Luke was transformed by his experience. It's a bittersweet victory. 

[Chen G. 3,951]

14 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

The belief that RotJ was the beginning of the end of good Star Wars starts with him. And I don't think psychoanalytics invented, "and they all lived happily ever after."

 

It is true that Kurtz is a very unreliable narrator, but I do find Return of the Jedi supbar: its cloying and deriviative and episodic.

 

And I do think there is an (ultimately very minor) influence by Bettelheim (though I wouldn't give the man the credit of calling him a "psychoanalyst"), because Lucas' notes from this time quote long excerpts of Bettelheim verbatim. Its the period in which Lucas was prattling on about "fairytale this" and "fairytale that" the most.

[Sweeping Strings 2,365]

10 hours ago, Andy said:

Yes!

 

Obviously they don’t all live happily ever after, but I don’t like seeing my heroes die on screen. Luke, Han, Leia, Captain Kirk… all unsatisfying. 

Or absolutely gutting. 

*Glares at No Time To Die* 

[Schilkeman 964]

I think it's the least good of the six (I choose to recognize), but I think it's a good film. The middle drags, especially on repeated viewings, but the last 40 minutes are some of the best Star Wars in Star Wars. The only time in my life I was literally on the edge of my seat, not knowing how it was going to turn out. 

 

I have respect for Gary Kurtz. He seemed to know a lot about film, but he was a bad producer for big films. The two films he worked on had serious production problems. The first one could be excused, but Empire was also difficult, and over-budget. And Kurtz's constant criticism of Lucas, even appearing in that stupid "documentary," when his own career was so spotty with success, made him look petty. 

 

Creative people tend to hyper-focus on things. Obviously, Lucas had fairy tales on his mind. He went on to make Willow, which I really need to get around to seeing. I like Ron Howard, and Horner, and Lucas, it should be a winner for me. My only Lucasfilm blind spot.

 

Apropos of nothing, I was recently watching the episode of Young Indy with Liz Hurley, written by Jonathan Hales, and noticed some strikingly similar shots to AotC in a couple of places. A little nod I think, on the part of Lucas and David Tattersall

[Naïve Old Fart 9,554]

ROTJ might be subpar, but over the last 20 years, it's become my favourite Star Wars film. It has (arguably) the best special effects of all things SW, but I really enjoy it for its emotional content.

Yes, it does have a "happy ever after" quality - and it should have stayed that way!!! - but it's still, as has been stated, a bittersweet victory.

 

 

13 hours ago, Andy said:

I don’t like seeing my heroes die on screen. Luke, Han, Leia, Captain Kirk… all unsatisfying. 

 

I'll call Valhalla, and have them reserve a room.

[JTN 2,048]

29 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

Luke was transformed by his experience.

No he wasn’t. Only according to Abrams, Kennedy & Iger. 

To those (with some exceptions) who truly love George Lucas’ original Star Wars Trilogy, like myself, the Star Wars Saga ended with Return of the Jedi. 

[Chen G. 3,951]

15 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Yes, it does have a "happy ever after" quality - and it should have stayed that way!!! -, but it's still, as has been stated, a bittersweet victory.

 

It is!

 

But, mind you, Kasdan has strongly lobbied to at least kill-off Lando - which sounds like a reasonable plot development -to which Lucas said the quote I provided earlier: "everyone lives happily ever after and nothing bad ever happens to anyone." In fact, in the early drafts Anakin, Ben and Yoda wouldn't just appear to Luke: they would be revived through the Force and reappear in the flesh!

 

Obviously it didn't come to pass, but even with little things like when the production complained about how cloying the Ewok designs were becoming, Lucas went on like Cato about fairytales. Definitely the touch of Bettelheim right there. Its also at this time that Lucas started complaining about some shots in the original film that showed Imperial officers getting shot, and sure enough when it came time for the special editions, many (but not all) of those frames were sniped out of the movie.

[Schilkeman 964]

[JTN 2,048]

17 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

ROTJ might be subpar, but over the last 20 years, it's become my favourite Star Wars film. It has (arguably) the best special effects of all things SW, but I really enjoy it for its emotional content.

Yes, it does have a "happy ever after" quality - and it should have stayed that way!!! -, but it's still, as has been stated, a bittersweet victory.

I agree with everything you write.

RotJ is amazing. It has one of the best redemption moments in film history (until the “No!” was inserted of course). What’s most important is that it’s the ending that George Lucas, CREATOR of Star Wars wanted. It boggles my mind how some people forget that Star Wars was created by Lucas and if he wanted a happy ending with all the protagonists being together celebrating their victory, then it’s how it’s

supposed to be, regardless of anyone liking it or not. It’s like criticizing Tolkien for the ending of LotR. It’s his story, his characters. 
 

Our heroes fought, suffered and in the end, won. They deserve to be together, they’ve earned it. 

12 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Kasdan has strongly lobbied to at least kill-off Lando

That would’ve actually been very dramatic if Lando had been blown up with the Millenium Falcon while blowing up the Death Star. But then we wouldn’t have this absolutely amazing escape from the DS scene, which is one of the most insanely badass scenes in movie history. 

[Schilkeman 964]

But god, do I fucking hate yubnub 

[JTN 2,048]

5 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

But god, do I fucking hate yubnub 

Apparently Lucas did too, thus he changed it.
 

I personally have nothing against it, although frankly I’ve become quite fond of the new version since the Special Edition. Actually now I prefer that to yubnub. 

[Schilkeman 964]

8 minutes ago, JTW said:

Apparently Lucas did too, thus he changed it.

Yes, the first time I saw RotJ was the special edition. I loved the ending music so much. The next time I saw the movie was at my grandparents on SciFi or some such with Billy D hosting the “uncut and unaltered” (I didn’t know what that meant) versions. I waited like three-and-a-half hours with commercials just to hear that music again. One of the great disappointments of my life. I’ve hated it ever since.

 

Lapti Nek = Jedi Rocks for me. They’re both pretty bad. 

[Chen G. 3,951]

37 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

The next time I saw the movie was at my grandparents on SciFi or some such with Billy D hosting the “uncut and unaltered” (I didn’t know what that meant) versions.

 

When would that have been?

[Schilkeman 964]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

When would that have been?

I'm guessing late 97, maybe November. I was probably there for Thanksgiving.

[GerateWohl 4,378]

There are a few things, that I terribly dislike about Return of the Jedi.

 

The Jedi Rocks scene is terrible. Best regards from the Holiday Special.

Anyway, he whole special editionalization of Jabba's palace scenes.

 

The Ewoks barbequeing the rebels fully dressed. This was even for Star Wars too ridiculous and childish.

 

The revelation that Leia is Luke's sister. Really appeared like "since the huge success of the Vader thing we must place a new family reveal.

 

But that's about it. The rest is great.

 

[Chen G. 3,951]

4 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Really appeared like "since the huge success of the Vader thing we must place a new family reveal.

 

That's certainly what I think it is.

[JTN 2,048]

10 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

There are a few things, that I terribly dislike about Return of the Jedi.

 

The Jedi Rocks scene is terrible. Best regards from the Holiday Special.

Anyway, he whole special editionalization of Jabba's palace scenes.

 

The Ewoks barbequeing the rebels fully dressed. This was even for Star Wars too ridiculous and childish.

 

The revelation that Leia is Luke's sister. Really appeared like "since the huge success of the Vader thing we must place a new family reveal.

 

But that's about it. The rest is great.

 

Most of the changes made to RotJ are unnecessary and bad. The worst one is Vader’s “No!” cry, it completely destroys the emotional impact of the scene.

I like the fact that Leia is Luke’s twin sister. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,554]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

But god, do I fucking hate yubnub 

 

What? The? Actual???!!!

It is against the law not to like "Yub Nub"!

Deal with it, dude!

[Schilkeman 964]

9 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

It is against the law not to like "Yub Nub"!

Not in God’s county, it’s not. Give me freedom from yubnub, or give me death!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,554]

It's treason ... then.

[JTN 2,048]

32 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

It's treason ... then.

 

[Schilkeman 964]

I definitely think Lucas was being pulled in many directions by 1983, with all of the Lucasfilm subsidiaries, the projects he was producing, his divorce and family, etc., and maybe didn't give Jedi the attention it deserved, but when I first got into Star Wars in '97, it was the one that left the biggest impact on me, and was my favorite for a long time.

 

I actually fell asleep in the middle of Empire. Forgive me, I was a dumb 13-year-old. It's methodical pacing took a lot of viewing on vhs to appeal to me. It's now my second favorite.

21 hours ago, JTW said:

Most of the changes made to RotJ are unnecessary and bad. The worst one is Vader’s “No!” cry, it completely destroys the emotional impact of the scene.

This is one of Lucas's debatable retcons. I think it's attempting to shift the focus of the moment from "Luke being saved by his father," to "Anakin choosing to save his son." It puts the onus of action on Vader. In the context of the complete saga, I think it works. There are a lot of Noooo!'s in Star Wars. OT purists hate it, but I don't think OT purists are even watching these versions anymore.

[Schilkeman 964]

I'm finding a couple different versions of this. It may have been done more than once. 

 

 

[JTN 2,048]

5 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

OT purists hate it, but I don't think OT purists are even watching these versions anymore.

Yeah, I certainly don't. Fortunately I have the 2006 DVD Set with both the original and the special edition without the "No!", but unfortunately with Sebastian Shaw already replaced by Hayden Christensen. But I never watch the 2011 Blu-ray version of RotJ. 

[Schilkeman 964]

22 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

When would that have been?

Thanks to this site that inexplicably exists, I can confirm it was Nov. 28, 1997, and was probably the version I linked to above. In the den after Thanksgiving dinner, on an old 9 inch tv.

https://www.innermind.com/sfc/lists/sfc9711.htm

[Naïve Old Fart 9,554]

59 minutes ago, JTW said:

Yeah, I certainly don't. Fortunately I have the 2006 DVD Set with both the original and the special edition without the "No!", but unfortunately with Sebastian Shaw already replaced by Hayden Christensen. But I never watch the 2011 Blu-ray version of RotJ. 

 

One bad thing about the original versions of the OT, on DVD, is that they are not in 5.1. Other than that, they're perfectly fine to watch (and they are fully scoped ).

[Chen G. 3,951]

1 minute ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

One bad thing about the original versions of the OT, on DVD, is that they are not in 5.1.

 

And I believe they're not exactly similar to the film in the form it originally premiered in, both in terms of the sound mix and a couple of effects shots.

[Tallguy 3,402]

6 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

OT purists hate it, but I don't think OT purists are even watching these versions anymore.

 

You are correct! Well, I saw it in the theater this year. Which made it even a little more shocking because it wasn't even the SE I was used to!

 

Just now, Chen G. said:

And I believe they're not exactly similar to the film in the form it originally premiered in, both in terms of the sound mix and a couple of effects shots.

 

And they're not anamorphic which makes them hard to watch on widescreen TVs. i.e. every TV I've owned since 2007!

[Schilkeman 964]

23 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

And I believe they're not exactly similar to the film in the form it originally premiered in, both in terms of the sound mix and a couple of effects shots.

No, those are the 93 digital remasters that were released on laserdisc (and again in 95 as the “faces” set). They have a different audio mix using mostly the 70mm six-track with some mono thrown in. I believe the colors are also slightly different, especially for Jedi.
 

As far as I know, no effects shots were changed between the wide release later in 1977, which were minor cleanup changes, and which most people saw first, and the special edition in 97. The wide release also included the mono mix, which is different in a number of ways from the Dolby stereo and six-track.

[Chen G. 3,951]

1 minute ago, Schilkeman said:

As far as I know, no effects shots were changed between the wide release later in 1977, which were minor cleanup changes, and which most people saw, and the special edition in 97.

 

Star Wars was first shown in a limited release. Between it and the wide release, Lucas changed the composite of the skies above Yavin and intensified the flashes from the laser blasts in the two scenes involving a spaceship chase.

[Schilkeman 964]

Just now, Chen G. said:

 

Star Wars was first shown in a limited release. Between it and the wide release, Lucas changed the composite of the skies above Yavin and intensified the flashes from the laser blasts in the two scenes involving a spaceship chase.

Yeah, that’s exactly what I said. No changes after the wide release

[Chen G. 3,951]

Just now, Schilkeman said:

No changes after the wide release

 

Yes, but I think its only right that the film should be preserved in the form in which an audience FIRST ever saw it, which would be the limited-release edition.