The Themes of Howard Shore's The Lord of the Rings

[Ollie 1,059]

Indeed!!

[diskobolus 3]

For some reason I thought I read something that made me think otherwise - making this is a pleasant surprise.

[Jay 37,364]

Well, I got the set today and I am blown away by Doug's liner notes. 18 new themes! 18! I never noticed half of these in the score before.

I've updated post#2 to include them all

Also, the Annotated Score is now available:

http://www.lordoftherings-soundtrack.com/t...tated_score.pdf

[diskobolus 3]

cool....

Gandalf the White 6:00... :-)

[crumbs 14,316]

Can someone tell me what happened to the foreboading theme moment that plays over the (theatrical edition) Two Towers title, as Frodo and Sam ascend the cliffs? It's entirely different on the CR; a playful Hobbit-esque version. Is this tracked in, and from where? It's like one of my favourite musical moments from the damn film, and it ain't on the CR??

[Jim Ware 526]

In the finished film, the

Shire theme that immediately

follows the sprightly

scoring of Sam’s impermanent

knot is replaced with

a version of Evil Times on

cor anglais. Here on CD, the

warm, albeit momentary

respite of the Shire Theme

has been restored.

The Complete Recordings presents this piece as composed.

[crumbs 14,316]

Well yes, but whereabouts did the tracked music in the film come from? If it was specifically recorded for that scene, replacing the hobbit motif, then the former should be on CR. Weren't these CR's meant to represent the film score as presented in the film (minus tracked music and/or edits made due to cuts), with the film recordings (ie, none of the alternates the OSTs had)? Unless the Evil Times part was tracked, it should've been in this cue as presented on CD. I'd be damn angry if isn't there, it's a nifty little moment, and only 3 notes, but has something so unsettling about it.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

The CR "are meant" to represent the scores as conceived by Howard Shore for the EE versions of the movies. That means they're not necessarily the same as what ended up in the movies after replacing certain bits.

[crumbs 14,316]

Well they could have at least provided the alternate, ie, the actual take used in the film, on the first CD. Doug has said in the past all alternates would find their way to some sort of rarities disc.

[John Crichton 4]

There's always going to be last second editing. Getting the score as originally intended, written, and recorded should be the ultimate goal of a complete release.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The tracked bit is merely a version of the Evil Times motif used in Fellowship. Nothing to get all crazy about. Actually, I always thought the latter half of the piece was tracked because it also plays over Merry's "the fires of Isengard will spread" speech.

[Alan 689]

The tracked music can be found on the Fellowship CR on disc 1. The Nazgul from 5:08 to around 5:24.

I really like the fact that the CRs are ignoring changes made for the films and going with what Shore considers to be his final, intended version of the score.

The fact is that with these CR sets, all the music that has been used to track into scenes where the original composition has been replaced is becoming available so if you want a version of a track that matches the film, its easy to edit one. Personally however, I'm really starting to prefer what Shore intended to be used over any of the tracked sections.

[crocodile 8,016]

Yes, but we're talking about film scores here.  

Is there any reason why a film score can't follow the same structure as an opera? And besides, I don't think film scores have any less musical value than other musical works.

I thought the times of using the term "film score" in a demeaning way are over.

Of course. I'm not talking about approach in and itself. It is more about its effectiveness in the tapestry of the film narrative. And I was referring to this particular case, LOTR trilogy.

Karol

[gkgyver 1,645]

Well they could have at least provided the alternate, ie, the actual take used in the film, on the first CD.

It's not an alternate. It's tracked, edited, in other words crippled music. Why would you put it on any CD when the full thing at its proper place is already on FOTR?

[crocodile 8,016]

Agreed. There is no place for another TPM: UE. It was a disgrace to all soundtrack releases.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Only in the hall of shame!

[Demodex 557]

I like the TPM:UE

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Duck and run, son.

[Demodex 557]

Been through this before. Apparently I'm in the vast minority that feels the soundtrack release should match the music in the film.

[gkgyver 1,645]

No, a soundtrack release belongs to the composer. That's the place he can show his vision of the musical interpretation of the film. Once we move into soundtrack territory, sync points play a subordinate role. In the film, music has to accompany the scenes, but on album, listenability and artistic integrity are the two top priorities.

And who says pieces intended for the film, written for the film, recorded for the film and ultimately dropped or butchered can't match the imagery in their original form? "The Wolves Of Isengard" from TTT for instance is very different from the patched together film version, and yet it matches the scene perfectly. I'd have been really p'ed off if they had included the edit job of the actual film.

[John Crichton 4]

I like the TPM:UE

Ban him!!! Where's my pitchfork?

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Been through this before.  Apparently I'm in the vast minority that feels the soundtrack release should match the music in the film.

Even when the best bits are taken out and the music is butchered and looped over and over again?

[Demodex 557]

Been through this before.  Apparently I'm in the vast minority that feels the soundtrack release should match the music in the film.

Even when the best bits are taken out and the music is butchered and looped over and over again?

Until I heard the edits that one of you guys put together, I never knew where any of the edits in the film score were, nor cared.

[gkgyver 1,645]

It's tracked music! TRACKED! Are you familiar with that term? That's not film music, it's a patchwork.

The tracked Bridge Of Khazad-Dum piece is gone, as well as the tracked Isengard music from Fellowship.

Until I heard the edits that one of you guys put together, I never knew where any of the edits in the film score were, nor cared.

Now that's the spirit ... :roll:

I can't even argue with you about this matter, it's simply a matter of principle.

[Demodex 557]

What tracked music from Bridge of Khazad-Dum?

How do you know it's tracked and not recorded exactly the same way?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Hmmm, maybe because it's *audible*? Just like the edits in TPM are like a punch in the face.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What tracked music from Bridge of Khazad-Dum?

How do you know it's tracked and not recorded exactly the same way?  

Because it's very noticeble, and because it's mentioned in the Annoted Liner Notes.

[Joe Brausam 214]

It plays just as Legolas sees the wolves and riders come over the hill before the reach Helm's Deep.

[Incanus 5,715]

As many here have pointed out the Complete Recordings are indeed a complete score for the film as Shore intended it which I think is the way the music should be presented. Of course to some people the changes may seem strange as they are used to hearing the pieces like they were in the films, tracking and all, but that is not a reason to present the music in that edited form. I would be appalled if there were any of the film edits of the pieces on these sets containing snippets of music from other films of the trilogy and music from entirely different sections of the score spliced into some tracks.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Until I heard the edits that one of you guys put together, I never knew where any of the edits in the film score were, nor cared.

I'd rather have original music that Shore wrote and which wasn't released before instead of copy/paste jobs of music we already have, and which by their very nature cannot have the elaborate musical or thematical structure of Shore's original compositions.

Flesh+Blood (Basil Poledouris)

[Ollie 1,059]

As I've said many time before, if I wanna hear the music all edited, looped and chopped up I'll watch the film.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I see?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Even though I listened to these tracks hundreds of times I never made the thematic connection between the large choral theme in The Prophecy from the original FOTR CD and the screaming choir for when the Ring Wraits are assaulting Gondor in ROTK .

Also the big brass statement when Eowyn and her group first set sight on Helms Deep in TTT sounds like a variation on the Nature's Reclamation theme.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Sounds like I still haven't listened to them enough.

And as of right now, the LotR discussion is no longer tucked away in an OT sticky, and spread over two boards. It's all here now.

LotR fans rejoice.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I never made the connection untill I heard the last FSM Podcast were they refer to the choral section of the Prophecy as the "secondary" ringwraith theme.

[Ollie 1,059]

Sounds like I still haven't listened to them enough.

And as of right now, the LotR discussion is no longer tucked away in an OT sticky, and spread over two boards. It's all here now.

LotR fans rejoice.

And there was much rejoicing.

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

Even though I listened to these tracks hundreds of times I never made the thematic connection between the large choral theme in The Prophecy from the original FOTR CD and the screaming choir for when the Ring Wraiths are assaulting Gondor in ROTK .

It's also in The Great Eye, sans choir. (1:37-2:09)

ttbk

Wah-Wah - Patrick Doyle

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I always knew that sounded familiar, thanks.

So it's obviously not "just" secondary Ringwraith theme, but associated with Sauron too.

What about Refuge At Helm's Deep from TTT CR. 1:55 - 2:05.

Is that Nature's Reclamation?

[Incanus 5,715]

Well you could say that all the Mordor themes are connected to Sauron in one way or the other (if not musically then on the level of ideas).

And yes I made similar observation about the Refuge at Helm's Deep track. There is that passage which sounds like Nature's Reclamation theme but as Doug makes no mention of it in the Annotated score that might be just a coincidence. As Mr. Adams said these scores are open to personal interpretations and Shore leaves some things ambiguous on purpose.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sure even Doug Adams can miss a few things.

We need someone note-savy like Marian to crack this for us.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

It sounds like it, but not in its full form.

[Incanus 5,715]

I am also intrigued about the the Ring Wraith material and the completely new direction it takes in TTT. The choral accompaniment vanishes and only the harsh brass hint at the Wraith material in the cues following Wraiths on Wings in the score. In RotK the Siege of Minas Tirith and Witch King VS Eowyn scenes warrant choral accompaniment but mostly Nazgûl are scored with harsh and relentless brass rhythm. I wonder how this change in the writing came about and is there some strong reason for not using choir for other scenes like Minas Morgul or Gandalf VS Witch King? To me something in Nazgûl calls out for that choral element. Perhaps the very nature of them as Wraiths and supernatural beings.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

We need someone note-savy like Marian to crack this for us.

Me? Who still hasn't figured out the Evil Times motif? :oops:

[Incanus 5,715]

We need someone note-savy like Marian to crack this for us.

Me? Who still hasn't figured out the Evil Times motif? :oops:

Hey that is one devilish little thing Marian. I am still unsure about few renditions of it even when I have the Annotated score to help me. Evil Times just seems to be so in the fabric of the score that most of the time it is gone before I can even register the whole thing.

[gkgyver 1,645]

"The whole thing"? Dude, it's only four notes

It's half-step up, half-step down, whole-step down. The Evil Of The Ring is basically the same, just half-step up, half-step down, three half-steps down. The History Of The Ring theme also consists of the four pitches of the Evil Times motif, only played with a different rhythm; they're all very much intentionally connected. I would think the only two chrystal clear statements of Evil Times are in FOTR. In TTT it's very subtle, with different orchestrations, but it's worth looking out for it!

In ROTK, when these four pitches play, it could mean any number of connections because all the themes for Sauron and the Ring are getting so many variations and are often only hinted at that picking out one theme isolated from another is pretty much imposible.

Ever noticed the descending third (I think "Threat Of Mordor") motif in Sam Vs. Shelob?

Plus, Eowyn's themes and the Realm Of Gondor theme are the only two starting with the rather big leap of a perfect fifth. I wonder if that was something intentional ...

[Demodex 557]

Where again does the Evil Times motif appear in FOTR?

[Incanus 5,715]

"The whole thing"? Dude, it's only four notes

It's half-step up, half-step down, whole-step down.

Hey that is still a pretty elusive little motif no matter how many notes it is! I am beginning to spot it with more ease now though.

And it is wonderful how the Sauron and Ring themes are connected to the Evil Times. There are some excellent moments in RotK where Shore hints at the Ring material and Sauron material at the same time as the motifs are so closely connected and you can't be quite sure which is implied or perhaps both. One example of this is the scene with Denethor and Faramir where the steward reprimands his son for letting the Ring go into Mordor in the hands of a witless halfling. There Shore plays with the History of the Ring theme and Evil of the Ring theme quietly telling us about the corrupting desire Denethor has for the Ring although he denies it.

Where is the descending third motif (which is not the Threat of Mordor motif btw) in Sam VS Shelob ?

[Jim Ware 526]

Where again does the Evil Times motif appear in FOTR?

In it's most obvious form:

Gandalf atop Orthanc witnessing the destruction of the forest (just before the cut to Weathertop).

Boromir contemplating the shards of Narsil in Rivendell.

It then becomes a little harder to spot. I don't think it ever appears in that form again; all of the remaining renditions are variations (the 'Elven rope' scene in Two Towers, the tower of Cirith Ungol in Return of the King).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Does anyone know were I can find a good example of The Heroics Of Aragorn theme? With trackname and a precise time, if possible, thanks.