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Sorry, I must sound like a total troll bringing all my negativity into these threads. :)

Hey, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, even you.;) It's always nice to have at least one person with a different opinion in a thread. If there was none, every thread would only be one page long !

Concerning the Zelda stuff, well, too bad you didn't like it.:(

Glad you liked the Chrono Cross medley, though. All this will not have been in vain.:D

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If anyone doesn't enjoy that I have to seriously question their taste in music.

That's an excellent piece. Now show me a significant number of video game scores that maintain that level of quality throughout, and I'll be happy to revise my opinion. :) I mean, John Williams' concert suites and main titles and whatnot are great, but I wouldn't be much of a fan of his if that's all he'd written.

Well all his Medal Of Honor scores and the entire score to the above cue.

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Accept he's not the next JW or JG, sorry.

I feel like you meant to say "except', but both work, strangely...

I think Video games have promising and terrible composers, just like with film. I don't think they're really any different in terms of quality or "where to look for the next JW/JG".

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Temple of Doom?

That might be it. I'm not very familiar with this score (Shame on me !), so could you be more specific ? Which part in particular from this score ?

Sounds a bit like Goldsmith's The Wind and the Lion.

Can't be this one, never listened to it.

I appreciate the help !;)

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Being a child of the 80's I've wasted entire days just listening to music from this site.

Also, a friend of mine put me onto this track from the StarCraft 2 soundtrack. Get past the opening few seconds of homage and it gets incredibly awesome. The first slow theme even feels a bit Goldsmith-y. Sadly I don't know whose actually responsible for this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJA5mc3pCBE

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Being a child of the 80's I've wasted entire days just listening to music from this site.

Also, a friend of mine put me onto this track from the StarCraft 2 soundtrack. Get past the opening few seconds of homage and it gets incredibly awesome. The first slow theme even feels a bit Goldsmith-y. Sadly I don't know whose actually responsible for this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJA5mc3pCBE

Sounds good. And yes, very Goldsmith-meets-Arnold-like. Much better than most video game music that I've heard. I want that!

There's even Philospher's stone theme in there at around 4:40. :)

Karol

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Also, a friend of mine put me onto this track from the StarCraft 2 soundtrack. Get past the opening few seconds of homage and it gets incredibly awesome. The first slow theme even feels a bit Goldsmith-y. Sadly I don't know whose actually responsible for this.

IMDB gives first props to Neal Acree. The site I found with it also credits Glen Stafford, Derek Dude, and Russell Brower.

Whoever they are.

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Indeed. One wonders if we're possibly looking in the wrong place, for the next John Williams, or Jerry Goldsmith.

If you're looking to the realm of video game scorse, you probably are. That's not to say they're unsuccessful, though. I mean they've got huge fanbases. But the sad truth of the matter, is that the vast majority of these 'composers' no longer write their scores, they play and record through a MIDI keyboard, sequencer and sample library - getting orchestrators and conductors to perform via proxy. Which further dilutes the composer's own creative voice, especially if his mock-ups and Finale/Sibelius sheets are undeveloped, resulting in the dozen or so orchestrators making their mark. To make matters worse, most of these aren't trained in composition, harmony, orchestration and counterpoint, meaning they've got about as much musical expertise as your average 10 year piano student.

So that's an entirely different approach and experience from the traditional one that bred us the likes of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith. Without ever fostering the skill of hearing an entire orchestra and various tone colours in one's head, because they've got the instant reward of the sampled orchestra in front of them. From what I've found, handwritten scores tend to have a unity and meta-structure to them that I've never heard on a track cooked up on Pro Tools + VSL/ES. One tends to self-critique (which can be harmful in excess, take Paul Dukas) and self-analysis more, when one has a piano and that daunting blank manuscript paper in front of you. Whereas a MIDI set-up is an entirely different mentality. Personally, I don't know about you, but I find writing out say a septuplet run on a written score, a hell of a lot less time consuming than any of the possible keyboard short cuts or mouse manoeuvring on Finale. That's one of the reasons why I gave up on notational software, the clumsiness of it all, but also the expensiveness of it. Whereas I can I buy a book of manuscript paper for £7.99.

So for now, unless video game and film composers start realise the cost to creativity their digital approach and lack of training ensues, nothing's going to change.

And as for most film makers needing mockups for every cue, I say screw em. Setup a contract that includes a clause that states 'You shall not require that this composer should produce any mockup.'

I honestly miss the age when film makers trusted composers enough to not demand an ad verbatim digital reconstruction of the entire score, for them to preview. Sure, a lot of hearts get broken, but that's part of the business.

Though if you do want to play along, team up with a Sample Library guro to mockup cues from your score.

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Indeed. One wonders if we're possibly looking in the wrong place, for the next John Williams, or Jerry Goldsmith.

If you're looking to the realm of video game scorse, you probably are. That's not to say they're unsuccessful, though. I mean they've got huge fanbases. But the sad truth of the matter, is that the vast majority of these 'composers' no longer write their scores, they play and record through a MIDI keyboard, sequencer and sample library - getting orchestrators and conductors to perform via proxy. Which further dilutes the composer's own creative voice, especially if his mock-ups and Finale/Sibelius sheets are undeveloped, resulting in the dozen or so orchestrators making their mark. To make matters worse, most of these aren't trained in composition, harmony, orchestration and counterpoint, meaning they've got about as much musical expertise as your average 10 year piano student.

So that's an entirely different approach and experience from the traditional one that bred us the likes of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith. Without ever fostering the skill of hearing an entire orchestra and various tone colours in one's head, because they've got the instant reward of the sampled orchestra in front of them. From what I've found, handwritten scores tend to have a unity and meta-structure to them that I've never heard on a track cooked up on Pro Tools + VSL/ES. One tends to self-critique (which can be harmful in excess, take Paul Dukas) and self-analysis more, when one has a piano and that daunting blank manuscript paper in front of you. Whereas a MIDI set-up is an entirely different mentality. Personally, I don't know about you, but I find writing out say a septuplet run on a written score, a hell of a lot less time consuming than any of the possible keyboard short cuts or mouse manoeuvring on Finale. That's one of the reasons why I gave up on notational software, the clumsiness of it all, but also the expensiveness of it. Whereas I can I buy a book of manuscript paper for £7.99.

So for now, unless video game and film composers start realise the cost to creativity their digital approach and lack of training ensues, nothing's going to change.

And as for most film makers needing mockups for every cue, I say screw em. Setup a contract that includes a clause that states 'You shall not require that this composer should produce any mockup.'

I honestly miss the age when film makers trusted composers enough to not demand an ad verbatim digital reconstruction of the entire score, for them to preview. Sure, a lot of hearts get broken, but that's part of the business.

Though if you do want to play along, team up with a Sample Library guro to mockup cues from your score.

Sigh, for the sake of conversation I share a rhetorical musing at the beginning of the thread and you respond with a frankly pointless diatribe in which you lecture me on the pros of traditional compositional technique vs modern digital practices?

With all due respect, did you not at any point stop to think that I may have simply been referring to RAW talent? You know, that God given stuff...

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Indeed. One wonders if we're possibly looking in the wrong place, for the next John Williams, or Jerry Goldsmith.

If you're looking to the realm of video game scorse, you probably are. That's not to say they're unsuccessful, though. I mean they've got huge fanbases. But the sad truth of the matter, is that the vast majority of these 'composers' no longer write their scores, they play and record through a MIDI keyboard, sequencer and sample library - getting orchestrators and conductors to perform via proxy. Which further dilutes the composer's own creative voice, especially if his mock-ups and Finale/Sibelius sheets are undeveloped, resulting in the dozen or so orchestrators making their mark. To make matters worse, most of these aren't trained in composition, harmony, orchestration and counterpoint, meaning they've got about as much musical expertise as your average 10 year piano student.

So that's an entirely different approach and experience from the traditional one that bred us the likes of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith. Without ever fostering the skill of hearing an entire orchestra and various tone colours in one's head, because they've got the instant reward of the sampled orchestra in front of them. From what I've found, handwritten scores tend to have a unity and meta-structure to them that I've never heard on a track cooked up on Pro Tools + VSL/ES. One tends to self-critique (which can be harmful in excess, take Paul Dukas) and self-analysis more, when one has a piano and that daunting blank manuscript paper in front of you. Whereas a MIDI set-up is an entirely different mentality. Personally, I don't know about you, but I find writing out say a septuplet run on a written score, a hell of a lot less time consuming than any of the possible keyboard short cuts or mouse manoeuvring on Finale. That's one of the reasons why I gave up on notational software, the clumsiness of it all, but also the expensiveness of it. Whereas I can I buy a book of manuscript paper for £7.99.

So for now, unless video game and film composers start realise the cost to creativity their digital approach and lack of training ensues, nothing's going to change.

And as for most film makers needing mockups for every cue, I say screw em. Setup a contract that includes a clause that states 'You shall not require that this composer should produce any mockup.'

I honestly miss the age when film makers trusted composers enough to not demand an ad verbatim digital reconstruction of the entire score, for them to preview. Sure, a lot of hearts get broken, but that's part of the business.

Though if you do want to play along, team up with a Sample Library guro to mockup cues from your score.

Sigh, for the sake of conversation I share a rhetorical musing at the beginning of the thread and you respond with a frankly pointless diatribe in which you lecture me on the pros of traditional compositional technique vs modern digital practices?

With all due respect, did you not at any point stop to think that I may have simply been referring to RAW talent? You know, that God given stuff...

No need to be so dismissive.

It's not pointless, it relates to your musing as to whether or not the next Goldsmtih will come from the world of video game scores. Fair do, so I made a considered argument on why we might not see another Goldsmith or Williams for quite some time.

As for God given talent. Even though Jerry Goldsmith did have that innate predisposition to being a composer, it would have amounted to very little without the musical education he received. And hypothetically, if the instant reward MIDI technology was available in the 50s and early 60s, Jerry Goldsmith had the innate talent for composition (which he clearly did), but no musical knowledge - I think that situation would be comparable with what he have with quite a few film and video game composers today.

What I'm saying is that for greatness, you need both. Likewise, someone with musical imposed in him from a young age, with no natural talent for it, and he feels smothered by it. Knowledge is no substitute for talent, and vice versa. It's careful balancing act, but we should be doing a better job providing at providing the access to that crucial education.

And that post wasn't aimed at you in specific, by any means. It was much more general than that.

Sorry if I've ruined your thread. Next time I'll remember to just post Youtube links to good video game scores and be done with it. :mrgreen:

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No need to be sarcastic :mrgreen:

I apologise if my straight response offended you, it's just that rather obtuse philosophies coming from 'the trained' can get a bit tiresome. Other threads have debated that stuff for years. For the record I largely agree with your opinion on traditional vs digital, but that is besides the point - when all is said and done talent will produce greatness regardless of methods. If you disagree with that fundamental argument then hey ho, fair enough.

If anything, I'd say it could be argued that your point of view on that particular subject displays a lack of imagination, which, it could argued, may be translated into one's output, musically.

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No need to be sarcastic ;)

I apologise if my straight response offended you, it's just that rather obtuse philosophies coming from 'the trained' can get a bit tiresome. Other threads have debated that stuff for years. For the record I largely agree with your opinion on traditional vs digital, but that is besides the point - when all is said and done talent will produce greatness regardless of methods. If you disagree with that fundamental argument then hey ho, fair enough.

You're right, in some cases it does. Usually these people teach themselves (autodidactism), which can can work very well. I'm just saying that a lot of talented people don't often have the privilege of a musical education. It would be nice if correspondence courses were available to the ghetto, but that's not how the system works. Another final loose thought to his paragraph, would be that one shouldn't necessarily equate talent with motivation or drive. A lot of gifted people don't even recognise the potential of the talent, or make the choice to capitalise on it. It's not as simple as, I dunno musical talent = instant ticket to world renowned success as film and television composer, with work spanning 5 decades. There are a lot more variables to the matter.

I hope you get the drift.

If anything, I'd say it could be argued that your point of view on that particular subject displays a lack of imagination, which, it could argued, may be translated into one's output, musically.

You could. But (implicitly) making suppositions about not only my character but my compositions from one or two posts, is not only of bad taste, but quite frankly ridiculous. In my short time I haven't gone after anyone here or their posts, I've just criticised a system of composition for screen (and slammed two hack composers), but that's all.

Also, verbal and non verbal intelligence and imagination are fairly separate mental faculties. Which is perhaps why a lot of composers (Williams including, along with Benny Herrmann) aren't the most imaginative or interesting in conversation, but their non-verbal communication through music makes up for that. I'm not saying I'm Williams I'm Herrmann, only that I hope my music does most of the talking. And once I get round to recording, hopefully you and the rest of the jwfan community can have the opportunity to hear it. :)

For the record, I haven't had a good night's sleep in the last couple days. I'd say that wariness, rambling on and lack of enthusiasm doesn't help (neither does the Walter avatar, TBH). I'm usually a nice guy, alert and all. Imaginative too.

Finished belabouring my point. ;)

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I think the late 80s/early 90s were the golden age for tunes in games. Production values are skyrocketing these days, but I'm not sure if the music is as catchy.

Couldn't agree more.

Back in the days, it was something like this :

Now, it sounds more like that :

And quite honestly, no matter how much "midi" the music sounded back then, it's still miles ahead of anything that has been composed recently for games. Try listening to this two cues, and tell me which one you'll remember most in a few days...

I just wish more people would realize how great some video games tracks are, so that we could be given orchestral versions of such tunes.

here is a link to "zelda reorchestrated" which is a community collaboration that updates the old games soundtracks to the sound of TP (perhaps better) it's not live orchestra but its closer than the originals

http://www.zreomusic.com/listen

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Speaking of Star Wars, since Youtube linking is all the rage in this thread some of my favorites from Soule's Knights of the Old Republic:

The Old Republic theme:

And my personal favorite, the Sith theme (slight SFX in the first part, taken from a cutscene):

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I tried to find tracks from Tilton/Giacchino's FRACTURE score, but I had no luck. Terribly underrated sci-fi action score!

Superb score, but unfortunately it was unreleased. I asked Tilton if there was a chance for it to see the light of day, but he said probably not, and wondered why they had them master and produce a soundtrack only to never release it.

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here is a link to "zelda reorchestrated" which is a community collaboration that updates the old games soundtracks to the sound of TP (perhaps better) it's not live orchestra but its closer than the originals

http://www.zreomusic.com/listen

I know this site. Unfortunately, most of the tracks sounds synth to me, and a lot of them doesn't sound remotely like the original. There are a few that are worth a listen, though.

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Speaking of Star Wars, since Youtube linking is all the rage in this thread some of my favorites from Soule's Knights of the Old Republic

Yeah, may as well go the whole hog and just rename the thread The Videogame Music Appreciation Thread ;)

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