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How do you listen to JW OSTs that include a reprise of a concert track?

How do you listen to JW OSTs?  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Pick one.

    • I listen to both the first and last version of the concert track.
      11
    • I omit the last concert version.
      2
    • I omit the first concert version.
      6


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Option 3 for me. I find that listening to the concert versions before the score proper robs the score of some of its development, as we hear where the theme finishes before we hear how it got there. Plus listening to virtually identical tracks within one sitting runs the risk of having me grow tired of them, especially since they've probably been used a fair amount in the score proper. Also, the last concert version often has some added tag (i.e. "Theme from The Patriot" or "Hymn to the Fallen").

It's not set in stone for me--for lighter works that develop but don't necessarily evolve, meaning their role in the end of the score isn't super different than it was in the beginning (i.e. Snowy's Theme), I don't think it matters as much. The often altered concert versions that appear in end credits also complicate the matter. But for the drama scores that contain a "Theme from X film" rather than a theme for X character, it's pretty consistent for me.

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Sometimes I feel that concert versions work better as standalone works to be listened to apart from the rest of the score. Mostly when the theme is used a ton in the actual score, and listening to an additional 5 minute variation on that theme would be redundant.

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How do you listen to JW OSTs that include a reprise of a concert track?

What you do is you choose your desired album, pop the cd into your player, make a note of the reprisal track's number (on the back of the case) and simply skip to it via the 'track forward' button on your system.

We already have a thread for this sort of thing here: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17304

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I listen to it the way the composer/produced arranged and intended it. I don't mess around with it.

I like the fact that 'concert pieces' may be repeated at strategic points (like beginning and end). Gives the experience a sonata feel (home-away-home again) and overall arc. I often enjoy full thematic presentations in the beginning, like an overture.

For me, Williams is an unsurpassed master in terms of soundtrack presentations.

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I never listen to an OS album straight through in chronological order anyway (well, maybe only when listening to it for the very first time).

I usually listen to the tracks that I like, whenever I like.

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I never listen to an OS album straight through in chronological order anyway (well, maybe only when listening to it for the very first time).

I usually listen to the tracks that I like, whenever I like.

I do this as well. Specially is the OST is very chopped up. For a listening in order I tend to prefer the complete score, and a separate listening of alternates, and a separate listening of concert pieces.

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It really depends on the album for me and oftentimes my mood.

Williams often loads the album with concert arrangements up front and they work as sort of road map to the whole score, introducing the main thematic ideas in concertized form, easily recognizable and absorbed in extended development so you can spot this material more easily later on. I think this is a great idea and Maestro is still one of the few who do this regularly.

I have with mp3s started to prune the albums of reprises if they do not offer anything new to safe few Mb's of space on the player though. :P

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Williams often loads the album with concert arrangements up front and they work as sort of road map to the whole score, introducing the main thematic ideas in concertized form, easily recognizable and absorbed in extended development so you can spot this material more easily later on. I think this is a great idea and Maestro is still one of the few who do this regularly.

I don't know. In my case I enjoy it more discovering all the different things in the score itself. I like that sensation of vaguely recognizing stuff you like sometimes through your first listening. Or when it something plays differently once or twice and you can't tell what it was like, and when it comes again you're like "right, that was it!". Putting concert pieces at the beginning kind of ruins that, specially if, like in all OSTs, it isn't explained what is what.

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No consistency, really.

The Patriot - I kept the concert piece as an overture

Raiders DCC - Before the Concord box, I moved the concert piece to after the end credits. Now it makes up a "fifth" Indiana Jones album comprised of all the other concert pieces and alternates from the other films.

Star Wars SE's - The concert pieces are noticeably out of place at either the end of disc 1 or the start of disc 2, as a cue to change the CD or as an introduction to the second half. For an iPod "playlist", the disc break is obsolete as each score becomes a single album, which bumps the concert tracks to either the end of the album or a supplemental album consisting of just concert pieces. For the Anthology, however, I keep them where they were on the discs, with the exception of disc 4, whose tracks I distribute to where they go in the films because that's how I have listened to the set since 1997.

Jurassic Park - What a mess of an OST. The truncated end credits is out of place, as is the super-truncated "Theme from" track. I think I moved both to after the end credits, which is put back into its normal place.

Superman (Rhino or Blue Box) - I keep the pre-intro track as an overture, but I usually skip it because I don't want to hear two tracks so similar back to back.

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I listen to it the way the composer/produced arranged and intended it. I don't mess around with it.

I like the fact that 'concert pieces' may be repeated at strategic points (like beginning and end). Gives the experience a sonata feel (home-away-home again) and overall arc. I often enjoy full thematic presentations in the beginning, like an overture.

For me, Williams is an unsurpassed master in terms of soundtrack presentations.

This. I don't mess with how Williams wants his albums. So thats option 1 for me.

Personally I love getting to hear it twice. The opening gives me a look into the score and the closing is a great refresher.

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I hate listening to a score starting with a concert piece. Raiders opens with the mysterious jungle cue. E.T. opens with its main titles. And so on. I think it's best when it comes to leitmotivic development, specially with JW, with some of his mysterious, unexplored first statements. Delightful. Long story short: the concert versions are a spoiler.

And concert arrangements interrupting the flow of the score? What the hell? Star Wars and Jurassic Park, I'm looking at you!

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Personally I love getting to hear it twice.

So put the track on loop. Why stop at twice? You can listen to the piece an infinite number of times, and only stop when your fingernails have clawed your eyeballs from their sockets so they can plug your ears.

I think Jack Bauer did something like this in season 3.

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Personally I love getting to hear it twice.

So put the track on loop. Why stop at twice? You can listen to the piece an infinite number of times, and only stop when your fingernails have clawed your eyeballs from their sockets so they can plug your ears.

I think Jack Bauer did something like this in season 3.

:P

Well I meant it works as a listening experience for the album. It acts as an overture and the beginning of the album and then its like an end credits piece at the ending. It works.

But I understand what most of you mean. I too am a fan of a more letimotivic approach to album presentation, but I don't mess with Williams album presentation. I just listen to it as it is.

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I generally leave them as they are.

My most recently listened example, The Patriot, works great as a bookends for the score. Same goes for The Terminal. I've come to accept that the album is more of a concept album than most Williams OSTs, and if that means more Navorski material at the end - great. (this is one set of sessions I'd love to have)

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I hate listening to a score starting with a concert piece. Raiders opens with the mysterious jungle cue. E.T. opens with its main titles. And so on. I think it's best when it comes to leitmotivic development, specially with JW, with some of his mysterious, unexplored first statements. Delightful. Long story short: the concert versions are a spoiler.

+1000000

This is my opinion as well.

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I don't mess with Williams album presentation. I just listen to it as it is.

Does this also mean you carry around all of Williams' CDs with you when you want to listen to them, or do you load them onto your iPod?

Because if John Williams had wanted you to listen to them on your iPod, John Williams would have put them onto your iPod. John Williams would put the earbuds into your ears and John Williams would control the volume knob for you. You are violating His sacred wishes the moment you rip that CD!!!!!!!!!!! Anything you do beyond that will not save your soul from the Fire.

May as well have fun on the way Down.

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:lol:

What about when Wagner introduces the main thematic material in his opera overtures etc.? Does that 'spoil' the narrative for you guys too?

No, because it's thought to be like that! Like Rósza did on El Cid. This said, you've just reminded me of all the Wagner still awaiting for me to listen to.

But a film score, which outside the film becomes a free form composition of undetermined length (and certainly not determined by what technology allows), isn't always a slave of such "sonata" styled concepts. Things can always be different. An overture might be there... or not.

Certainly a film score with music for some sort of triumphal opening titles is going to sound out of the film like an overture of sorts. And certainly I wouldn't put a Close Encounters suite before Let There Be Light, because that wouldn't be how it opens, that's not how the music is supposed to develop and the jump into the opening of the score would be jarring (granted, I put an extreme example there... but seeing certain things...) It all always depends on how the work actually is.

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:lol:

What about when Wagner introduces the main thematic material in his opera overtures etc.? Does that 'spoil' the narrative for you guys too?

No, because it's thought to be like that! Like Rósza did on El Cid. This said, you've just reminded me of all the Wagner still awaiting for me to listen to.

But a film score, which outside the film becomes a free form composition of undetermined length (and certainly not determined by what technology allows), isn't always a slave of such "sonata" styled concepts. Things can always be different. An overture might be there... or not.

Certainly a film score with music for some sort of triumphal opening titles is going to sound out of the film like an overture of sorts. And certainly I wouldn't put a Close Encounters suite before Let There Be Light, because that wouldn't be how it opens, that's not how the music is supposed to develop and the jump into the opening of the score would be jarring (granted, I put an extreme example there... but seeing certain things...) It all always depends on how the work actually is.

Well, if I want to hear what the composer originally envisioned, I'll watch the film.

To me, there's really no difference between a Wagner overture and a Williams overture, as the latter has been reconceptualized for listening. The soundtrack is its own beast altogether, a separate artistic entity. A symphony, if you will. One should strive to make it as 'classical'-sounding as possible (if it's a symphonic piece), using means from classical music to arrange it into a proper musical voyage. The sonata form is one such way.

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What about when Wagner introduces the main thematic material in his opera overtures etc.? Does that 'spoil' the narrative for you guys too?

Only Wagner's earlier operas have real overtures, and even then, they're presentations of key themes, not necessarily "the" definitive arrangement of a certain theme or the one setting it gravitates to for the entire work.

More importantly, they're written that way. The Meistersinger overture does have some of the major developments and does contain pieces that return in similar form later on (though without the choir and soloists that make up the climax later on in the opera). But putting the Valhalla finale from Rheingold before its E flat major prelude would be ridiculous.

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We already make it crystal clear that we don't want to hear what the composer originally intended when we bastardize his album presentations to load the music onto our iPod, rearrange and rename the tracks, adjust the volume, rip DVD rear channels, mix in video game music, type missing pieces out on MIDI keyboards to listen to with nifty sound fonts, split tracks, combine tracks, delete tracks, and still feel good about ourselves in the morning. This is not a new thing. We accept it and move on, mister broken record man, champion of the composer's original vision, defender of the "I like music with sound effects and explosions."

~*~

If I want to see animals as God originally intended, I'll go to the Dark Continent and possibly watch my head mauled to pieces by a lion, trampled by a hippo, or die of whatever disease of the week the tsetses are carrying. No thanks, I'll just go to the zoo.

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A symphony, if you will. One should strive to make it as 'classical'-sounding as possible (if it's a symphonic piece), using means from classical music to arrange into a proper musical voyage. The sonata form is one such way.

The sonata form doesn't describe a whole symphony, but typically its first movement. It starts out with the *introduction* of the key thtmes, one after the other, developing them throughout, juxtaposing them and leading them to their full development followed by a coda. That's exactly what Williams does NOT do by bookending his work with identical settings of the fully developed main theme.

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We already make it crystal clear that we don't want to hear what the composer originally intended when we bastardize his album presentations to load the music onto our iPod, rearrange and rename the tracks, adjust the volume, rip DVD rear channels, mix in video game music, type missing pieces out on MIDI keyboards to listen to with nifty sound fonts, split tracks, combine tracks, delete tracks, and still feel good about ourselves in the morning.

You do all that?

Wow. Must require lots of time and stamina.

A symphony, if you will. One should strive to make it as 'classical'-sounding as possible (if it's a symphonic piece), using means from classical music to arrange into a proper musical voyage. The sonata form is one such way.

The sonata form doesn't describe a whole symphony, but typically its first movement. It starts out with the *introduction* of the key thtmes, one after the other, developing them throughout, juxtaposing them and leading them to their full development followed by a coda. That's exactly what Williams does NOT do by bookending his work with identical settings of the fully developed main theme.

Well, sure, if you use the exact meaning as in the classical repertoire. But the basic premise of home-away-home again applies to the whole work. There are other ways too, of course. The important thing is to create a new, purely musical (and not filmical) dramaturgy that sets the tone, builds towards a climax and then a post-script, perhaps. A pure musical narrative. Bookending the album with an overture and a recap of the main themes towards the end (sometimes different from the opening overture, sometimes very similar) is one way. But not the only one, of course. Another way is to have a softer statement of the themes in the beginning and more pronounced ones towards the end (even if said cue didn't necessarily appear towards the end in the film).

Many ways to Rome.

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We already make it crystal clear that we don't want to hear what the composer originally intended when we bastardize his album presentations to load the music onto our iPod, rearrange and rename the tracks, adjust the volume, rip DVD rear channels, mix in video game music, type missing pieces out on MIDI keyboards to listen to with nifty sound fonts, split tracks, combine tracks, delete tracks, and still feel good about ourselves in the morning.

You do all that?

Wow. Must require lots of time and stamina.

Oh I forgot, you might accuse me of trying to speak for the entire group. Here we go.

We = everybody who does what I described.

We ≠ everybody here, in the world, or with functional ears.

No, I think it takes a lot more time and stamina to listen to an album right out of the box and be perfectly happy with it as-is. Because there are a lot of albums that I just wouldn't listen to that way.

At all.

Ever.

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You know what we need? We need an Official Thor Thread.

We have an Official Talk About Thor Thread, but it's by invitation only.

Wait, I wasn't supposed to mention that. DAMNIT.

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No, I think it takes a lot more time and stamina to listen to an album right out of the box and be perfectly happy with it as-is. Because there are a lot of albums that I just wouldn't listen to that way.

At all.

Ever.

Sorry to hear that. Must be frustrating.

I feel the same way sometimes, but for the opposite reason as you. Then again, I don't usually buy said soundtracks in the first place. Saves me the frustration.

You know what we need? We need an Official Thor Thread.

We have an Official Talk About Thor Thread, but it's by invitation only.

Wait, I wasn't supposed to mention that. DAMNIT.

Cool! I want in! ;)

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We already make it crystal clear that we don't want to hear what the composer originally intended when we bastardize his album presentations to load the music onto our iPod, rearrange and rename the tracks, adjust the volume, rip DVD rear channels, mix in video game music, type missing pieces out on MIDI keyboards to listen to with nifty sound fonts, split tracks, combine tracks, delete tracks, and still feel good about ourselves in the morning.

You do all that?

Wow. Must require lots of time and stamina.

I wouldn't say so. With every score I listen to, I go in and customize it for my iPod - trim a little bit, raise the volume, snip out this part or that dull bit, switch in the album track, etc. If it's the way I want it, I'm more likely to enjoy it.

Sometimes I can keep the album arrangement as is, because it's a good way to spend [x] minutes, but if my first exposure to it is the album and I like it, I'll want more music from it - an approach that has led me to a lot more good music than just staying with OSTs. So I have to work a little at it - eh, it's for good music, the work is worth it.

But yeah, like you said, many ways to Rome.

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True. Whatever suits one's preferences etc.. I guess I'm kinda lucky to connect so well with the way Williams does things that I don't need to change a second.

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I like Williams' album presentations, that and I'm usually too lazy to change anything. I don't like editing the albums I own. I just rip them onto my ipod and thats about it.

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What about when Wagner introduces the main thematic material in his opera overtures etc.? Does that 'spoil' the narrative for you guys too?

I'm not familiar enough with Wagner's work to refute that specific statement, but since I take the "etc" to mean this applies to most other types of overtures, I will respond to that. Overtures often only include the flashiest, most straightforward presentations of a theme. Thus in that sense they are NOT fully developed. An example is West Side Story. By the end of the score, "Maria," "Somewhere" and "I Have a Love" have all combined to form a new musical idea. We don't hear this final stage of development in the overture, so there's still quite a bit of development left. In these instances, I think an overture is meant to familiarize one with the material so that when it's used in the score, it has already had time to grow on the listener. It is familiar enough to be enjoyable.

Whereas for many JW scores, the concert version of a theme presents the final development of that theme. For instance, listening to "Hymn to the Fallen" in the beginning robs Saving Private Ryan of its development because that concert version is the culminating point of the score.

Of course these differences aren't always the case--"Irina's Theme," for instance, isn't in its fully developed form in the concert version, so I don't think it damages the listening experience to hear it before the rest of the score, and I'm sure I could find some overtures that are in their fully developed form--but usually I think this is the case.

I vote this the dumbest poll on the site.

Say what you want about my polls Joey, but at least my contributions to this board go beyond bragging about how old I am, insulting members who disagree with me, and misspelling elementary school level words like "liar." Also, two pages of discussion and 18 participants in the poll says that a lot of people on this MB think that this is a worthwhile thread.

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I'm not familiar enough with Wagner's work to refute that specific statement, but since I take the "etc" to mean this applies to most other types of overtures, I will respond to that. Overtures often only include the flashiest, most straightforward presentations of a theme. Thus in that sense they are NOT fully developed. An example is West Side Story. By the end of the score, "Maria," "Somewhere" and "I Have a Love" have all combined to form a new musical idea. We don't hear this final stage of development in the overture, so there's still quite a bit of development left. In these instances, I think an overture is meant to familiarize one with the material so that when it's used in the score, it has already had time to grow on the listener. It is familiar enough to be enjoyable.

Whereas for many JW scores, the concert version of a theme presents the final development of that theme. For instance, listening to "Hymn to the Fallen" in the beginning robs Saving Private Ryan of its development because that concert version is the culminating point of the score.

Hmm....it's fascinating to read this, because it's something that has never really been an issue to me (i.e. how 'developped' the first presentation of the themes are). Even if it's the same exact cue repeated verbatim in the beginning and end -- which doesn't happen all that often, when I think about it -- it seems so natural to the whole piece. It's as if it says "here's the heart of the piece you're about to hear, its very essence", then depart from that to explore other timbres, hopefully with some sort of build-up (especially towards the end), and then return to the heart at the end as a reminder. It basically fulfills the demands of tonal music in western culture, i.e. returning to a tonal centre for comfort -- except that it's not only a tonal centre, but a thematic centre as well. It's simply a structure or architecture that makes a lot of sense, and gives the experience a sense of unity.

But I guess it wouldn't be any fun if we all experienced music (and musical structure) the same way.

As I said, though, it's only ONE way to make sense out of a score on CD. There are plenty of other ways too, that may be just as, if not even more, rewarding. The important thing is only to rearrange it for listening in some form or fashion.

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As I said, though, it's only ONE way to make sense out of a score on CD. There are plenty of other ways too, that may be just as, if not even more, rewarding. The important thing is only to rearrange it for listening in some form or fashion.

Rearrange an album for listening? Um, what else could we do? Were you under the impression that some of us simply buy these things to look at? Or smell? Or rub our pinkies around the spindle hole for pleasure?

Personally, I like my CDs crushed over ice with a mint sprig and side of fava beans, but that's just me.

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