HOOK: Complete Cue List and Chronological Editing Guide

[segliay 0]

Great list and it's really annoying to see how little is missing and how it could have all been on there!

I still don't get why Mr. Williams needed to remove cues and not want the inserts included, doesn't he or people who represent him get it that we want every note he composed regardless of cues being too similiar to eachother because personally I have never cared for album versions I just always want the complete recording sessions.

[publicist 4,650]

I still don't get why Mr. Williams needed to remove cues and not want the inserts included, doesn't he or people who represent him get it that we want every note he composed

He gets it. It's just his gentle way of saying F... YOU.

[Luke Skywalker 2,385]

it's so true it hurts

[Richard P 5,303]

Great list and it's really annoying to see how little is missing and how it could have all been on there!

I still don't get why Mr. Williams needed to remove cues and not want the inserts included, doesn't he or people who represent him get it that we want every note he composed regardless of cues being too similiar to eachother because personally I have never cared for album versions I just always want the complete recording sessions.

Basically, no - he doesn't

Williams is very conscious about what gets released, and if an insert was a last minute change and doesn't reflect what he wanted for that scene, or if he feels a track is too repetitive, then he doesn't want it on disc. And as much as I hate people 'sucking up' to famous personalities, saying 'no' to a Williams request is probably not a good way to ensure future releases

It's unfortunate - one of the most desired composers for unreleased music is one of the most undesired for C&C fans when it comes to being involved in the release.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Like with every releas he gets involved in, Williams does it purely to upset KM.

[Luke Skywalker 2,385]

Great list and it's really annoying to see how little is missing and how it could have all been on there!

I still don't get why Mr. Williams needed to remove cues and not want the inserts included, doesn't he or people who represent him get it that we want every note he composed regardless of cues being too similiar to eachother because personally I have never cared for album versions I just always want the complete recording sessions.

Basically, no - he doesn't

Williams is very conscious about what gets released, and if an insert was a last minute change and doesn't reflect what he wanted for that scene, or if he feels a track is too repetitive, then he doesn't want it on disc. And as much as I hate people 'sucking up' to famous personalities, saying 'no' to a Williams request is probably not a good way to ensure future releases

It's unfortunate - one of the most desired composers for unreleased music is one of the most undesired for C&C fans when it comes to being involved in the release.

Then he must hate the original version of the AOTC finale... and other inserts and revisions that ended in his OSTs...

COS' harry's wondrous world = WTF?!

[Erik Woods 841]

Form Rank also comes in too early.

Actually, "Form Ranks" is edited perfectly on the La La Land album and comes in a half a beat too late on the OST

-Erik-

[Jay 46,244]

Yea, I should have clarified that Form Rank comes in early when compared to the OST. It comes in on the LLL CD exactly the way it does in the film itself.

[MissPadmé 17]

and "Crossed Swords" also starts early in the film? why would one want to create that?

[Trent B 354]

and "Crossed Swords" also starts early in the film? why would one want to create that?

All the cues for "The Ultimate War" how they are transitioned on the LLL set matches EXACTLY like in the film.

I know because I did a comparison of the two. I used the RL and RR channels from the DVD since that had no sfx. So the LLL set is right as far as transitions go.

[Jay 46,244]

Whether or not the FILM matches Williams' intentions or not, though, is another story...

[Trent B 354]

The way how they are mixed on the LLL set and in the film sounds natural.

[Rachael Foley 10,164]

whut?

no it doesnt.

[oierem 248]

Whether or not the FILM matches Williams' intentions or not, though, is another story...

Well, logically, Williams' main goal should be to match the film, right? After all, this is not supposed to be a concert suite!

[Trent B 354]

whut?

no it doesnt.

Obviously you were not paying attention. I'm talking about the transitions.

[Rachael Foley 10,164]

I got you.

I still do not agree....

the one transition in the insert area sucks.

[Xander Harris 9,676]

LLL Ultimate War is highly flawed.

[Jay 46,244]

Whether or not the FILM matches Williams' intentions or not, though, is another story...

Well, logically, Williams' main goal should be to match the film, right? After all, this is not supposed to be a concert suite!

You're missing the point. I agree Williams INTENDED his music to sync perfectly to the cut of the film he saw.

What I am saying is that the final film does not always match the composer's intentions.

[segliay 0]

Finally got it today, actually held off from downloading but am pretty suprised by ultimate war, mainly the bit when pan first appears seems faster and completely different to the OST as well ofcourse all the different edits. So where exactly is that ultimate war material from compared to the OST?

[Rachael Foley 10,164]

I think they sped it up, to match the film insert.

[SpiritOf77 2]

First of all, Jason, thanks so much for your editing guide. I've been using it a lot over the past few days to put together my own assembly. It's so generous of you take the time and trouble to do this for us.

Second: WOW. I lack some of the tinier pieces of the puzzle needed to make a definitive rendering (if there is such a thing), but having fitted what I can together it's close enough - and what was already one of my favourite JW scores has stepped up several places in my list. To experience the (almost) complete tapestry unfolding at last is stunning. In particular the whole Ultimate War sequence; on the OST it wasn't one of my favourite tracks - I found it bombastic and abrupt. But with its missing sections restored (with the horrid volume dips and peaks levelled out - I've spent quite a bit of time on that), and in the context of the sweep of the whole score, it suddenly makes complete sense. It's a thing of wonder - such invention, and detail, and colour, and verve - it's joyous.

Right now, I'm a very happy man.

[Jay 46,244]

Glad I could help

[scorewizard 0]

But with its missing sections restored (with the horrid volume dips and peaks levelled out - I've spent quite a bit of time on that)

How did you level the volume dips? This was the most disappointing thing about this release. That the second half of the Ultimate War was taken from the film stems.

Also, if you could level out the dips, why didn't La La Land do the same when they mastered it?

[Trent B 354]

Also, if you could level out the dips, why didn't La La Land do the same when they mastered it?

Many have wondered this. I think had Mike Matessino worked on it, he would have attempted to level everything out.

[JohnnyD 1,845]

Hey, Jason. What happened to the analysis chart?

It is gone! Nothing but scrambled typing!

What happened?

[Jay 46,244]

Woah, what the!

I dunno what happened!!

Luckily everything is in-tact in the spreadsheet link in the second post (note the spreadsheet has multiple tabs)

[Wojo 2,458]

Woah, what the!

I dunno what happened!!

I would blame Elder Joe Harbinger.

[JohnnyD 1,845]

Hey, Jason. The spreadsheet link is in tact, but are you able to fix the actual analysis back to the way it was before it got scrambled?

If so, could you?

[Jay 46,244]

Fixed it!

[JohnnyD 1,845]

Thank you, Jason!

By the way, when are you gonna revisit the analysis you started on Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones?

And War of the Worlds?

Oh, and when will you revisit the analysis on The Adventures of Tintin, and the analysis on War Horse?

[Jilal 681]

Maybe i'll do an analysis of AOTC, if Jason let's me do it.

[Jay 46,244]

Huh? Why wouldn't I let you do it?

[Incanus 5,890]

Huh? Why wouldn't I let you do it?

Perhaps people erroneously think that you have called dibs on the analysis of those scores by creating the respective complete cue list threads.

[Jay 46,244]

That's crazy!

[JohnnyD 1,845]

Hey, Jason.

What is the additional information you are gonna add on here?

[Jay 46,244]

Just a full track-by-track discussion pointing of the themes used, etc. Who knows when I'll have time

[JohnnyD 1,845]

Thanks again.

[JohnnyD 1,845]

Hey, Jason, I was just curious about something.

The unreleased / unused 20 seconds from 15M2 The End of Hook: It is a triumphant fanfare of the Lost Boys theme.

What exactly does it sound like?

I'd really love to here it.

Do you have the sheet music?

[Pieter Boelen 1,032]

Just a full track-by-track discussion pointing of the themes used, etc. Who knows when I'll have time

That does sound interesting!

[John Takis 394]

I'm dredging this thread up again to revisit the question of the "lost day" theory, which I mentioned last year in my radio conversation with Tim Burden. The theory -- if you'll recall -- is that when the middle portion of the film was restructured and a number of scenes removed, one entire day was lost, and that this helps clear up any confusion about Hook and Tink's deal for "three days." I didn't originate this theory, but I did subscribe to it ... largely because it seemed plausible, and because the novelization seemed to support it.

Today, however, I was reading through the novel, and I noticed something that had previously escaped my attention. The novel recounts several of the deleted scenes (Jack's big pirate outing, Maggie and the captive Lost Boys) AFTER the Never-Feast and BEFORE Maggie's lullaby. That would have been the lost day. The detail I missed, however, is that the novel describes Jack's day with Hook in the form of a flashback -- a reminiscence by Jack, taking place on the same evening as the Never-Feast, about events that took place earlier in the day.

So a more careful reading of the novel would yield the following reconstructed timeline:

DAY 1

Peter Arrives in Neverland

Slicing The Hand [Deleted]

Peter Meets Hook

Peter Meets Lost Boys

Hook & Smee Plot

Believe Your Eyes [Partially Deleted]

DAY 2

Hook's Lesson

Pick 'Em Up

Jack's Pirate Outing [Deleted]

The Never-Feast

Maggie And The Lost Boys [Deleted]

When You're Alone

DAY 3

The Clock Museum

Peter's Sword Training [Deleted] (Jason reports that Topps card confirms this was filmed)

Ballgame Sequence

Peter Regains Memories

Bonfire With Lost Boys [Deleted] (not certain this was filmed)

DAY 4

Tink Grows Up

The Ultimate War

Peter Leaves Neverland

Again, this is only based on the novel. I haven't read the shooting script, and I don't know what other changes might have taken place either before or after the novel was written. But IF the novel is taken as accurate to the initial cut of the film, then it would mean that an entire day was not lost after all. It would mean that several scenes were cut, and other scenes were moved around, but that the total number of days remained the same. To compare, here's how the film breaks down:

DAY 1

Peter Arrives in Neverland

Peter Meets Hook

Peter Meets Lost Boys

Hook & Smee Plot

DAY 2

Pick 'Em Up

Hook's Lesson

The Never-Feast

When You're Alone/Believe Your Eyes [shortened]

DAY 3

The Clock Museum

Ballgame Sequence

Peter Regains Memories

Tink Grows Up (in the novel, this is a dawn scene, so it may still belong to Day 4)

DAY 4

The Ultimate War

Peter Leaves Neverland

If anyone out there has read the shooting script or has any more detailed information, please feel free to post it here!

[Jay 46,244]

Ah. I can't remember off the top of my head - is the "Hook & Smee Plot" scene shot as taking place during the day or at night. The way I remember it is it shown as being during the day, so when the film transfers from that scene to Pick Em Up, it always seemed like it was the same day.

Peter's Sword Training [Deleted] (not certain this was filmed)

This was filmed. There were pictures of it on that old Hook site (from the Topps trading cards, I believe)

[John Takis 394]

Ah. I can't remember off the top of my head - is the "Hook & Smee Plot" scene shot as taking place during the day or at night. The way I remember it is it shown as being during the day, so when the film transfers from that scene to Pick Em Up, it always seemed like it was the same day.

I'm fairly certain it's a night scene -- Hook retiring for the evening. It's definitely bedtime in the novelization.

[Rachael Foley 10,164]

Its nightime.

[oierem 248]

It's bedtime. You can see that in the establishing shot before the scene.

[ShowUStheHOOK 8]

wow. is hook your all-time favorite score?

Yep

hehe do you hate this?

ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO

[InTheCity 169]

I am currently transcribing The Mighty Prologue

PS going in Bb minor about 23 cents off normal tuning....

[JohnnyD 1,845]

Who does not get adrenaline during The Flying Sequence?

The music combined with the scene...WOW!

One of the best scenes in the film!

[JohnnyD 1,845]

Wow! The entire Ultimate War sequence is exactly 19 minutes in length (that includes the 20 seconds of unused music in The End of Hook)!

Amazing, absolutely amazing.

[bollemanneke 4,331]

Thanks for another amazing guide.

[crumbs 16,007]

Brilliant guide, @Jay. Thanks for this.

 

Just a question regarding the Hook boots (pre-Concorde and Concorde), are there any details about the origin of these boots or their sound quality?

 

I'm guessing the boot with the perfect sounding sessions of The Ultimate War (and the unreleased section of The End Of Hook) is the Concorde boot?