Mattris

As much as I am a fan of examining each film on its own terms, it only goes so far: sometimes, what a movie is just isn't enough, from the outset. That seems to be the case with Solo.
 
Having not seen it, I wouldn't presume to pass judgment, but I've only heard things that range from bad, to faint praise.
 
 
I think that critics can be swayed by the "zeitgeist", as it were. i.e. when a franchise like Disney's Star Wars earns their good faith with a strong entry or two, that favorable impression can carry over to films of this franchise that don't necessarily deserve the praise: Solo, as well as portions of The Last Jedi, being such a case.
 
Perhaps the best example of this phenomenon is Marvel who, having earned critics and audiences' trust, can shell out quite vapid content and still be looked at favorably.

@Mattris, listen to the man!
 
 
First thing, this film (again out of Johnson's desire to surprise us) uses Rey as a false protagonist. The main character instead being Luke Skywalker. He undergoes the greatest character trasnformation, and its his character transformation that resolves the problem at the film's true climax, there being a false one (again, out of the need to surprise us, the audience) with Snoke, Holdo and Phasma earlier in the film.
 
Thinking about it, I am having trouble defining Rey's character transformation. Maybe its just that I haven't watched the film in quite some time (like I said, there's something about the film that left me unenthused to ever rewatch it) but I seem to recall that her story throughout this film has to do with her becoming disillusioned with Luke and with Kylo (having grown to trust him, falsly, after the midpoint). But that's doesn't change her personality, which is what character transformation is all about.
 
Kylo Ren does transform, but its mostly offscreen. Unlike Michael Tucker who reads Kylo's conflict between good and evil as genuine, I see it quite clearly as an act he is putting on for Rey to get her by his side when he dispatches of Snoke, so she can help him do away with the guards. A tell-tale sign is that, during the battle with the guards, while Rey is helping Kylo, the same cannot be said for Kylo returning the favor, even though the camera clearly shows him seeing her in a tight spot. Its still a transformation of sorts (from loyal apprentice to usurper), but it happens offscreen. 
 
The less is said about Finn and Rose the better, but the former of the two does trasnform, albeit not enough to justify his time-consuming and utterly boring subplot. Tucker hinges this ineffective character transformation upon an excised scene, but to my mind even with that scene re-instated it wouldn't have worked. Even when Finn "tries to run" it isn't to defect from the resistance (as Rose thinks) but to get the signal that's meant to call Rey back to them from what has clearly become a death trap. Even if he hasn't joined the ressistance directly, he joined them by default, through sharing their ideals.
 
Outside of Luke, Poe has one the most defined character transformations in the film: from a hot-headed, rushed, narrow-minded pilot to a thoughtfull, responsible leader.
 

How are these movies ruined to the average filmgoer? They don't see this bickering any more than they see the supposedly-offensive nature of The Last Jedi.

Rian Johnson is clearly addicted to attention. He made his movie divisive on purpose, and now he will do anything to keep the conversation about him, even though people are trying to talk about Solo.

To make up for all my getting facts wrong and to tie into an earlier subject matter: look how fucking gorgeous Empire is!
 

 
Screenshots from Adywan's Empire Revisited, props to him for regrading the sometimes vomit-inducingly botched Bluray as well as a billion other fantastic changes!
 
I still prefer STAR WARS overall, movie and score.

Empire is the BEST!
 
Best Star Wars film!
Best Star Wars score!
Best ending!
Best acting!
Best Yoda!
 
Best, best, best!
 
The Empire Strikes back is one of the greatest films of all time.

My apologies. I didn't mean to forget the people who like (or even love) The Last Jedi, but I do feel sorry for them. I say with confidence that most Star Wars fans were underwhelmed, disappointed in, or even hated the movie.
 
Arpy, please explain why you think that "every word of what" I "just said is wrong", specially regarding Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson.

Damn good thread! And HOT!

Who is we? All the other superficially/easily entertained kids who like the Transformer Movies and don't care, if a movie makes sense or not cause for them the backstory and worldbuilding is just there as an unimportant brainless backdrop?
 
People and especially fans of course do care deeply about that. If the stage is rotten, badly constructed and makes no sense at all no character story line can be taken serious.
 
Opinions like yours justify all the plot hole ridden lazy ass movies Hollywood produces nowadays. And people like you that are that superficially/easily entertained (because the characters are sooooo good) support this low class style of moviemaking. Shame on that!
 
 

I agree with a lot of Mattris points (as mentioned in the SOLO thread) and don't get yours at all Demodex...
 
I mean you said a few posts above regarding TLJ that "The story telling was fine to me and everyone I know."
Did you all read the novel Bloodline first before watching TLJ because without its shitty explanations on the backstory you have no clue about the real state of the galaxy during the films TFA and TLJ. (the crawls didnt explain a thing, they made it even more confusing)
How can the storytelling be fine if you need countless of tie in books (that no casual viewer will ever read) to get any idea whats going on in the galaxy.
It of course doesn't help that the explanations on the First Order, Resistance and New Republic are incredibly idiotic and moronic and are easily reaching SW parody level.
 
It also didn't leave a good impression that you avoided all the valid discussion points about the trainwreck of a backstory and worldbuilding of TLJ.
So i guess you just don't care for movies going deeper and making sense within itself and more importantly within a franchise of 7 previous films...

I hope Giacchino scores the inevitable collapse of Disney's Star Wars.
 
1. A New Hope Remake Awakens
2. Rogue One Bit Of Hope
3. The Last Rian Johnson Film
4. Kathleen, Kathleen, Kathleen, Kathleeeeeeen, I'm Begging You, Please Don't Take My Han.
5. So-Low: A Box Office Story
6. Hey Mickey, You're So Fine, You're So Fine You Ruined My Childhood.
 
 

A Mattris.... A demon of the ancient JWFan.
 

People were so fatigued after Black Panther, it looks like Infinity War might not make it to $2 billion.

Mattmane. When you create a new username, your old ones are automatically saved on your profile.

Thank you for this... one of the best (and non-partisan) posts I've seen in a while. I'm truly grateful for John Williams' scores for these films - the best thing to come out of them, without a doubt. I'm cautiously optimistic for what J.J. has in store for Episode 9. (If it's not the best of the trilogy, I'll be truly disappointed.) But its score... I have no worries.
 
May the Music be with us all!

I don't have any existential problem with strong female leads as some seem to.  I do think, however, that instead of filmmakers focusing on how "strong" they could make a female character, they could instead focus on making that character compelling.  There is little compelling about most stock damsels in distress.  Why?  Because they do not correspond much to reality, to how people, both male and female think and act.  
 
But, a female character that is overly strong and self-confident?  That smashes the odds set against her?  Many men get uncomfortable, because they themselves are conflicted, have doubts, feel powerless over their lives.  They prefer to see fellowmen overcoming the odds in that way. 
 
In moderation, this kind of approach is fine in characters, male and female.  But, they are not always compelling, because, again, they don't correspond to most people's realities. 
As Chesterton said, the most compelling characters are ordinary people in extraordinary situations.  If you want to find a truly great female character, look no further than Bronte's Jane Eyre.  
 
Here, we have a person with ambition and talent, sensitivity and strength, who finds herself in a life that has little regard for any of this.  But, she does not become bitter, and does not become suddenly powerful over her destiny.  She suffers, she grows, she finds the strength to make the right choices, she changes those around her by her example.  And she is a well rounded human character that does not need to be justified with the moniker "strong." 
 
Rey comes closer to this standard in TLJ than in TFA.  To me, she became too powerful in the Force too soon.  She needed to grow as person before she could fully embrace and use  the power granted to her.  The jump jars me.  But, I don't blame agenda.  I just think storytelling has become something of a rare art.  Too much instant gratification.             

I keep hearing from people on the internet about how they don't care how much money it makes (or doesn't make) simply because they enjoyed it. Yeah that's fine, I enjoyed Masters of the Universe, John Carter and Cutthroat Island, but they weren't in a hurry to make a sequel. And that's why people care, because a film's box office is the most accurate gauge into the general audience's interest in the film, and if it doesn't make the expected returns, then that has a significant influence on the TPTB and their decisions on the future direction of the franchise. In short, money talks.
 
EDIT: and Independence Day Resurgence rightfully bombed hard. That'll teach them to make better movies next time.

Let's dispense with this "Star Wars story group" stuff. The Story Group does not direct the "stories", on either a micro or macro level. They are there to make sure nothing violates canon and to answer questions about names, planets and ships. That's it. They certainly don't tell Abrams or Johnson or anyone else how to make their movies on any level, including the story.  The notion that Pablo Hidalgo and the rest of that crew has some huge story that they're telling and the filmmakers are just going along with it is just comical. They decide nothing of importance. In the publishing world they'd be called fact checkers.
 
It's been well reported that Johnson was given free rein to do as he wished, and tell the story that he wanted, and it's clear to anyone watching that TLJ was uninterested in developing many of the ideas that Abrams (who had nothing to with TLJ's story) began. Abrams is a good soldier, even if he has a problem with what Johnson did, he wouldn't say so. As for Kennedy, she's not a story teller.  So Johnson basically had carte blanche, and again, has said so on many occasions. I can't even believe this is still even being debated.
 
And all that's fine, that's how they're choosing to tell these stories. But let's not pretend there's a grand plan to all this...there's not.  As Chen G correctly pointed out, they're more or less making it up as they go along.  Which is in stark (no pun intended) contrast to what Feige is doing with the MCU.  

Many of the "idiot" fans voiced their complaints and were dismissed and accused of being ignorant, racist, and sexist by Lucasfilm employees. (FYI, I'm putting together a compilation of evidence.)
 
If Lucasfilm continues to ignore the fans, their business will continue to drop. This has been happening since TLJ... and will continue to happen until changes are made.

Film classes are for someone else. What fans want is good Star Wars films, and what we will do is avoid paying the business that is Disney/Lucasfilm. If enough people do that, Disney/Lucasfilm's profits will take a hit, and changes will be made. Capitalism at work.

Again with the personal, demeaning, anti-male sentiment.   What is "reprehensible" is calling me "morally bankrupt". I'm not "done here".
 
In Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, freeing the slave children and returning them to their parents was the central plot line. On the other hand, it's not confirmed in TLJ that the children were a "slave labor force". As I suggested previously, it's possible that they were stable children at work or part of a training camp.
 
My issue with the Canto Bight scenes is that they were written to be SJW. After having an awkward introduction, Finn and Rose were sent on a mission to draw attention to the injustices of (possible) child slavery and animal cruelty (horse racing) on a well-to-do planet of apathetic inhabitants and gambling vacationers. This whole 'getaway' was ham-fisted into the film and was a disappointing experience for people expecting a tasteful, exciting side-plot which could have showcased admiral qualities like perseverance and teamwork. What we got was the Rose Show with poor Finn in tow. Finn, a former Stormtrooper who's back was just sliced by a lightsaber, was reduced to comical relief and Rose's wingman. It was the TLJ's writers and producers who were pressing an agenda - not me.
 
The Canto Bight scenes and the Rose Tico character are an embarrassment to the Star Wars brand and to the fans who want to support it. I'll wonder if Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson will say that there failed SJW in SW experiment was "worth it" when they are eventually fired by Disney.
 
My other arguments against these recent Star Wars films are not "null and void" just because you say so. Care to address any of them?
 

@Quintus I should clarify that a character can be well performed and still be un-interesting; furthermore, a character can be interesting, but be faced with a story that doesn't challenge the character and therefore fails to maintain the audience's interest.
 
That's why the narrative is more important than the performances or even the characters themselves.

Indianagirl,
 
Your aggressively demeaning and sarcastic tone makes me think that I have bruised your ego. I'm speaking to you as I would any random person in an internet forum. I did not change my tone because you are a woman, but you have clearly changed your tone because I am a man. Regardless, I am not "threatened" by you in any way.
 
I was incorrect to state that the TJL is anti-capitalist. But Kathy Kennedy has, indeed, turned Star Wars into an SJW fest. Do you really not see it? If you want me to compile a list of examples, let me know.
 
As others here have pointed out, novels (or any other form of elaboration or explanation) should not be required reading to understand the events of a film.
 
Where in the film are illegal arms dealers shown being apathetic towards a casino?
 
It's standard practice to physically discipline (and reward, usually with food) wild or untrained animals during training. The Canto Bight racing animals are shown being whipped with an electric shock device, presumably to get them to run faster. I suppose it's possible that the stable boys were at work or part of a training camp. But if the scene was meant to show "forced child labor", which I'm assuming it was, that is SJW in Star Wars. And most fans would agree that it does not belong.
 
The Canto Bight getaway (and other scenes involving Rose and Holdo) wouldn't have been so awkward had the film-makers been more subtle about their agenda - or had expertly written the story/script.
 
To answer your question, Kathy Kennedy does not care. But her bosses at Disney will care when the films continue to under-perform because the majority of the Star Wars fandom refuses to see them.
 
You are correct about DeeJay's moral ambiguity. The problem is that Finn and Rose did not refute his statements regarding arms dealers. That scene was poorly written and awkward, to say the least.
 
Luke Skywalker's representation in TLJ was somewhat unexpected. But I don't have a problem with him being disenchanted and demoralized. What I do have a problem with: Why did he leave clues to his whereabouts if he planned refuse the very people that need his help. Han had already been killed, and Leia was in immediate danger. And yet he still refused to go with Rey. It doesn't make any sense. How (in)convenient that Yoda shows up - after Rey leaves - and talks sense into him... so that he finally decides to help his friends. Perhaps Luke's intervention - to distract Kylo and the First Order so that Leia and the remaining Resistance fighters can escape - wouldn't have been required had Rose not stopped Finn from sacrificing himself to destroy the door laser. So Rose saved Finn, but indirectly got Luke Skywalker killed. Absurd, if you ask me.
 
Kathleen Kennedy approved this nonsense. For Lucasfilm to be successful moving forward, Disney should fire her immediately - not because she's a woman - but because she's not doing her job properly. Her job being: To spearhead Lucasfilm, producing films that most people appreciate and want to see, and which make as much money as possible.

To be honest, Mattris is right in a lot of his points about TLJ. And he didnt even mention all the issues i had with the political backstory and worldbuilding, which made no sense at all too.
In fact your only response to all my points was to read a lackluster book called bloodlines where there is an incredible stupid explanation for the New Republic fiasco.
 
Why call people crazy instead of starting a serious discussion about the countless points that have been brought up?
Probably you dont want to admit that most of the posted issues that people have with TLJ and to a lower extent TFA are REAL.
 
Now it seems you dont have any arguments left and your only way out is to dismiss all those who have another opinion than you. (or you dont reply at all)
 
 
 
FFS, obviously a fan cares...THATS WHY HE IS A FAN. 
Otherwise he would be a moviegoer like you who ultimately doesnt care and only wants to be superficially entertained, because its just a stupid lame movie.
 
You even seem to imply that people should stop being fans of something... if there were no fans Hollywood could kiss their money goodbye. They need people who watch their films 3-4 times.

Yeah, but they all usually feed into the overarching plot.
 
Not so much with the Finn/Rose subplot in The Last Jedi...
 
And its just one earmark among many of the the director's utter lack of self-restraint.

Indianagirl,
 
Your aggressively demeaning and sarcastic tone makes me think that I have bruised your ego. I'm speaking to you as I would any random person in an internet forum. I did not change my tone because you are a woman, but you have clearly changed your tone because I am a man. Regardless, I am not "threatened" by you in any way.
 
I was incorrect to state that the TJL is anti-capitalist. But Kathy Kennedy has, indeed, turned Star Wars into an SJW fest. Do you really not see it? If you want me to compile a list of examples, let me know.
 
As others here have pointed out, novels (or any other form of elaboration or explanation) should not be required reading to understand the events of a film.
 
Where in the film are illegal arms dealers shown being apathetic towards a casino?
 
It's standard practice to physically discipline (and reward, usually with food) wild or untrained animals during training. The Canto Bight racing animals are shown being whipped with an electric shock device, presumably to get them to run faster. I suppose it's possible that the stable boys were at work or part of a training camp. But if the scene was meant to show "forced child labor", which I'm assuming it was, that is SJW in Star Wars. And most fans would agree that it does not belong.
 
The Canto Bight getaway (and other scenes involving Rose and Holdo) wouldn't have been so awkward had the film-makers been more subtle about their agenda - or had expertly written the story/script.
 
To answer your question, Kathy Kennedy does not care. But her bosses at Disney will care when the films continue to under-perform because the majority of the Star Wars fandom refuses to see them.
 
You are correct about DeeJay's moral ambiguity. The problem is that Finn and Rose did not refute his statements regarding arms dealers. That scene was poorly written and awkward, to say the least.
 
Luke Skywalker's representation in TLJ was somewhat unexpected. But I don't have a problem with him being disenchanted and demoralized. What I do have a problem with: Why did he leave clues to his whereabouts if he planned refuse the very people that need his help. Han had already been killed, and Leia was in immediate danger. And yet he still refused to go with Rey. It doesn't make any sense. How (in)convenient that Yoda shows up - after Rey leaves - and talks sense into him... so that he finally decides to help his friends. Perhaps Luke's intervention - to distract Kylo and the First Order so that Leia and the remaining Resistance fighters can escape - wouldn't have been required had Rose not stopped Finn from sacrificing himself to destroy the door laser. So Rose saved Finn, but indirectly got Luke Skywalker killed. Absurd, if you ask me.
 
Kathleen Kennedy approved this nonsense. For Lucasfilm to be successful moving forward, Disney should fire her immediately - not because she's a woman - but because she's not doing her job properly. Her job being: To spearhead Lucasfilm, producing films that most people appreciate and want to see, and which make as much money as possible.