PAL DVDs have incorrect pitch?

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I was just surfing around the net and came across some articles regarding the 4% speedup characteristic of PAL. Apparently this also affects the audio (raises slightly under a semitone). Any thoughts?

Burga - who wouldnt have noticed it anyway

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Well, it's true.

I normally don't notice, though, but I'm pretty sure there's some purists out there who hate it.

[Trent B 337]

I believe it does. The German version for ROTS is PAL and when I got some of the rear channel rips for it I had to pitch the audio down to the correct level.

That's why I like NTSC since those discs are left alone at least I think they are.

[Ollie 1,059]

I would have never noticed.

[Sandor 797]

Well, some things about PAL are better than NTSC.

[Jediwashington 59]

Well, you got to choose one or the other to sync the movie to. NTSC is the standard format for most US films. If it's not in that format, it's going to be faster or slower, and it will affect the audio track, since everything is sped up. Must be annoying for people with perfect pitch.

~JW

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

So generally, which region gets the better release? R1 or R2?

[Trent B 337]

I would say Region 1.

However if you want to talk about extras, there's a lot of Region 2 DVD's that have isolated scores which Region 1 doesn't have.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The Matrix iso score isn't on the R2.

We regularly get screwed in the extras department, or get releases with French DD and DTS, but English DD only.

[fommes 153]

I had two questions:

Can you repair that problem with DVD programs on the computer? Which, and how?

To correct the pitch when you rip music from a dvd, how much should you lower it? I believe robthehand posted once that it 4% was not entirely correct?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Aren't many Region 2 DVD's pitch corrected?

[fommes 153]

Seriously? I thought it was typical for the PAL format: everything in PAL = wrong pitch.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

PAL/SECAM video uses a frame rate of 25 fps (frames per second). Source video material will be at this frame rate. Film material will have a frame rate of 24 fps and is usually played back at 25fps (to avoid frame rate conversion) and the audio is pitch corrected before the encoding begins.

[fommes 153]

So, the video is not corrected but the audio sometimes is? If so, how can you know on which DVD it's corrected and on which not?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

A side by side comparison between a Region 1 and Region 2 DVD release.

[GoodMusician 56]

I got in an argument on another site I go to JPLegacy.org

One of the kids on it lives in like...spain or germany or something (region2). And he asked how long Jurassic Park 3 was...

after my tongue in cheek remark (too loong) I told him it was like...an hour and 23 minutes and 16 secongs I think itwas...

and he was like "No its not. I'ts only an hour and 20 minutes. How come every site says 83 minutes! It's not!"

And I'm like "Maybe because they're talking about the American version." and I had to explain the speed up and such... if it weren't for a similar talk about this during the editing of Episode III stuffI wouldn't have known though... funny the things you learn and where they pop up in everyday life...

[A24 4,349]

I once read it's pitch corrected.

[robthehand 3]

PAL suffers from the speed-up (4%), NTSC suffers from the 3:2 pulldown, resulting in a slightly "jerky" picture - most noticable in pans. But then again, most people wouldn't notice either, at all.

About the pitch-correction - I can't think of an example in PAL. All the ones I own are fast.

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

Pitch correction or not, what you can't avoid is a speedup. Occasionally, the music does seem a bit too fast on PAL discs.

Well, you got to choose one or the other to sync the movie to. NTSC is the standard format for most US films.

Wrong. The standard format for films is 24fps. NTSC is 60 half fields per second, and PAL is 50 half fields per second. The difference is that you can match the 24 frames to NTSC's half fields by alternately using 3 and 2 half fields for each frame, ending up with something that runs at nearly exactly the same speed (not really exactly, because NTSC is minimally faster). For PAL, they use 2 half fields per movie frame, so you end up with 48 half fields for one second of film - and the first frame of the next second for the remaining two half fields.

The advantage of PAL: It's smooth. NTSC has a tendency to be very jerky on smooth, slow camera pans. Fortunately, that's remedied by progressive output, so the only downside of NTSC remains it's lower resolution.

Must be annoying for people with perfect pitch.

I guess so - but then, they'll have problems with many orchestras as well.

X3 (John Powell)

[A24 4,349]

About the pitch-correction - I can't think of an example in PAL. All the ones I own are fast.

It's still sped up but with the right pitch.

[robthehand 3]

Wouldn't that sound horrible?

(I don't think I have any of those, either. )

[A24 4,349]

Wouldn't that sound horrible?

No, what would sound terrible is the higher pitch. Without pitch correction Darth Vader would sound like Mickey Mouse. (I'm exaggerating a little, of course)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Alex is correct.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

The Matrix iso score isn't on the R2.

We regularly get screwed in the extras department, or get releases with French DD and DTS, but English DD only.

That's true - it's actually the R1 that usually has the iso score that R2 doesn't. I have 2 exceptions to that, and there's about another 8 or so around.

Can't say I care about DTS myself, I don't have the equipment on my PC and the barely noticeable difference isn't worth the extra space IMO.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

We got totally screwed on the BttF trilogy. Sure, we got DTS, but I'd rather have had the Oscar-winning stereo track as an extra option. Difference between the DD and DTS track is minimal, and we had to sacrifice audio commentaries, deleted scenes and several other features.

Last year, the trilogy was re-released here as a four-disc set. The fourth disc basically had everything that was on the R1 set but not on the R2 set. This however, also included audio commentaries, which reportedly now play against a black screen, instead of to the actual film. :?

Still, worst offense is when there is a foreign (often French) DTS track available, but not the original English one (Jurassic Park III, Die Hard with a Vengeance, Schindler's List and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy are examples).

(end rant)

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

Spielberg releases here typically have DTS and DD in German and DD in English. Which is why I still don't have WOTW.

[Trent B 337]

By the way I should have clarified my post a bit more...

I ment to say that Region 2 DVD's sometimes get stuff that Region 1 DVD's doesn't get (isolated scores being an example) and vice versa.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

I'm not aware of many DVDs where that's the case. My specific examples for R2 DVDs were Contact and Erin Brockovich, the former of which dumps a load of SFX featurettes to include the iso, and the latter just doesn't include the iso in R1.

I still emphasize that 80% of the time it's the other way round In particular, I've bought 4 DVDs in R1 specifically for their iso's.

I accept that it isn't limited to iso's, but again, I know of no specifics and an iso is now a top selling point for me.

[Goldsmithfan 6]

PAL suffers from the speed-up (4%), NTSC suffers from the 3:2 pulldown, resulting in a slightly "jerky" picture - most noticable in pans. But then again, most people wouldn't notice either, at all.

What's the 3:2 pulldown? I don't think I've ever heard of it.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Like Marian described, it's a technique used to confer the 24fps frame rate of motion picture film to the roughly 30fps frame rate of the NTSC system.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

From Wikipedia

Something to do with slowing the film down to around 30 FPS and the picture looking a bit jerky.

Only time I noticed the PAL speedup was watching 24 on Sky One. I watched all of Season 5 on US TV caps and Jack's voice in particular is noticeably lower pitched.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

And say goodbye to real time on this side of the Ocean too.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Well, they put the breaks in a different place, so I guess it skips by 5 mins a few times, but that happens on all of the DVDs anyway (which is also how I watched most of S1 and all of 2-4).

They should re-edit the show for the different break intervals - and make them twice as much money by selling both to collectors. Either that or just change the European intervals to US style for this one damn show.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I'm not even bothering with watching that show on TV anymore.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Nor me, would if I lived in the US though.

[batmanand 0]

To be honest, most people will only ever watch one Region, and hence will not notice the differences.

[King Mark 3,631]

I only notice it when you have to edit a piece of isolated score from a region 2 DVD to music from the regular OST...which only happened with RotS.

k.M.

[fommes 153]

I bump this for two different questions:

- I've got one or two things here I've taped on DVD from TV - Belgian and UK TV, so all in PAL. They're concerts that have been filmed with TV cameras here. Question is, do I need to lower the speed & pitch of the music I got from my DVD like we have to do with the regular R2 DVDs when it comes to movies? Or is this another beast entirely and is the speed & pitch already correct?

- I don't think this has been agreed on entirely - and I'm not a mathematician I'm afraid. For R2 DVDs, do we need to lower everything with 4%, or with 4.167% (or set it on 95.843%)?

[Quintus 5,399]

I would have never noticed.

I do, during FotR. The part where the moth flutters towards Gandalf on Orthanc is really quite distracting.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'd only see the PAL thing a problem when editing DVD rips with OST material.

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

- I've got one or two things here I've taped on DVD from TV - Belgian and UK TV, so all in PAL. They're concerts that have been filmed with TV cameras here. Question is, do I need to lower the speed & pitch of the music I got from my DVD like we have to do with the regular R2 DVDs when it comes to movies? Or is this another beast entirely and is the speed & pitch already correct?

If it's PAL cameras (the likely situation), everything is ok. If it's NTSC cameras - I don't know.

The 4% speedup happens because 24 movies frames for one second are directly transformed into 24 PAL frames, but in PAL, 25 frames make up one second. You therefore "gain" a frame each second, i.e. the video runs 1/25 too fast, which is 4%.

[Guest macrea]

It always sounds like chipmunks to me and I can't understand how people can stand it. Even more annoying is that it always seems that the people who rip DVD's and do things like restored music edits etc. do it in region 2, never realizing how completely pointless their efforts are. I can only assume that they have more time to do this over there because their movies are over with sooner.

[Greg1138 3]

It always sounds like chipmunks to me and I can't understand how people can stand it. Even more annoying is that it always seems that the people who rip DVD's and do things like restored music edits etc. do it in region 2, never realizing how completely pointless their efforts are. I can only assume that they have more time to do this over there because their movies are over with sooner.

If I do it, it's hardly pointless to me, is it?

The PAL vs NTSC argument is an old one, but not one that's ever going to change....and for those of us that have only ever lived with one system it really, really isn't a big deal at all....if I'm that bothered about seeing a movie at the correct frame rate I'll catch it at the cinema - but it's not exactly the first thing I think about!

Non-issue.

[fommes 153]

Thanks, Marian!

Sounds like we should lower the pitch only by 4% after all, in other words.

If it's PAL cameras (the likely situation), everything is ok. If it's NTSC cameras - I don't know.

Which made me think about my Timeless Call DVD-R. This was supposedly 'live', and taped with NTSC cameras, though broadcast here in Europe on CNN I think. How do they handle the speed-up in this case?

[A24 4,349]

Well, during the opening credits of each episode of Mad Men, the pitch of the Main Theme is slightly higher and the tempo is slightly faster than the same Main Theme heard during the menu interface. I'm not sure if this is due to the conversion.

Alex

[fommes 153]

Interesting - so menu music on DVDs wouldn't have to be lowered.

[Guest macrea]

If I do it, it's hardly pointless to me, is it?

I should say 'inaccurate' and not 'pointless.'

Personal enjoyment aside it seems like every time a clip is posted where someone has scored back in alternate or unused music, like North's 2001, they've combined a CD (correct pitch) with R2 video (sped up).

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

It always sounds like chipmunks to me and I can't understand how people can stand it.

Over the years I have decided that I don't notice the difference without direct comparison anyway.

Sounds like we should lower the pitch only by 4% after all, in other words.

As I said, if it's PAL cameras, you shouldn't have to do anything. And if it's a film camera and 4% speedup applies, the speedup is there, but the pitch *may* have been corrected already. So you either have to simply change the playback frequency by 4% (if nothing has been done) or just slow the whole thing down *without* affecting the pitch (if the pitch has already been corrected).

And about the (un)likeliness of change in this area... I believe HD formats have an option nowadays to carry the original 24fps film material, and displays are slowly gaining support for that too. So when that finally becomes the standard, you get your film unaltered, without stupid half field modifications and without PAL speedup and the (even more annoying on large displays) 3:2 pulldown you get with NTSC material.

[fommes 153]

As I said, if it's PAL cameras, you shouldn't have to do anything. And if it's a film camera and 4% speedup applies, the speedup is there, but the pitch *may* have been corrected already. So you either have to simply change the playback frequency by 4% (if nothing has been done) or just slow the whole thing down *without* affecting the pitch (if the pitch has already been corrected).

Yup I know, I was talking about the second question - sorry for the confusion.

I believe HD formats have an option nowadays to carry the original 24fps film material

I didn't know that. That's going to take some more years I suppose before that comes through.

[Morn 8]

Youre not gonna notice the pitch unless you listen to it side by side with the DVD and CD.

The real problem is the timings are messed up, if you're trying to see how unused music works it creates a problem, it's not especially easy to get a region 1 DVD, you're left with cutting the music slightly to make up the time. Why didn't they just double a frame and average the difference...