The whole listening experience order thing...

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I've always wondered, how does whoever is responsible for arranging the order of the tracks on a CD judge what is the 'best' listening experience? Isnt film order the best order most of the time as themes would usually develop over the course of a score? Does the best listening experience involve having the pop song 'If We Hold On Together' smack in the middle of the score when it only appears in the end credits on film?

[Datameister 2,044]

Personally, I'd rather hear a score from start to finish, without omissions or changes in the order. I like that sense of completion, and it can indeed be a better listening experience in many cases. But the people responsible for compiling soundtrack albums are (theoretically) responsible for creating the best overall listening experience for the average consumer. The "average" listener probably doesn't want every second of slow background cues, nor do they want an album that's "too long." And sometimes, changing the order of the music truly can improve the flow. Jurassic Park is a somewhat good example of this--if you put the cues in film order, the result is not quite so aesthetically pleasing. Mind you, I still prefer to listen to my correctly-ordered edit, not the OST, but I see virtues in the OST's presentation.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

In the Williams original releases, it's himself who decides which is the best listening order.

And to this day, he has never let me down.

[Jeshopk 8]

In the Williams original releases, it's himself who decides which is the best listening order.

And to this day, he has never let me down.

I think for truncated one disc scores, he's good at sequencing them, and I didn't mind the nearly complete Jaws CD order either. It was generally in order.

But there's just something magical about the chronological listening experience. I believe that Williams flows each piece into the next very beautifully, even when he composes them out of order. It's not the cliche of it "tells the story"... I don't need to think of the story.... but I just really like the way his adjacent cues contrast one another and it all adds up to be greater than the sum of its parts... Like a complete ballet.

When I hear the way he programmed the AI promo, I think he just wanted to make sure he kept the Academy's attention by placing some grander pieces early. I don't have ADD, so if I don't hear a big theme for 40 minutes it doesn't lose my interest. I like to hear things evolve. He says he composes that way (think of the evolution of ET or the evolution of CE3K. In fact, I prefer Raiders without the theme at the beginning, because it saves it for the climaxes.

[Datameister 2,044]

In fact, I prefer Raiders without the theme at the beginning, because it saves it for the climaxes.

It's interesting, isn't it? By saving the march for "Flight from Peru", Williams achieves a lot more with it. It seems to be saying a lot more. And I've said it before...but boy, what a way to introduce an iconic theme to the world!

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

In the Williams original releases, it's himself who decides which is the best listening order.

And to this day, he has never let me down.

He generally does a good job, tho I don't really like ROTS' order...and the where Shark Cage Fugue and Shark Attack ended up on the Jaws CE

Jurassic Park is a somewhat good example of this--if you put the cues in film order, the result is not quite so aesthetically pleasing

Frankly I've never tried that, but I always found it real odd to have the film end credits right in the middle. The piano lullaby always gives me a 'the adventure over' vibe...

[Pieter Boelen 740]

In the case of Jurassic Park, I at least want to have the End Credits at the end and the half end credits track that is at the end can be removed as far as I care.

[Datameister 2,044]

Frankly I've never tried that, but I always found it real odd to have the film end credits right in the middle. The piano lullaby always gives me a 'the adventure over' vibe...

Very much agreed on that. While I still do feel like the OST sequence overall is somewhat more aesthetically pleasing than a simple chronological format, the placement of the end in the middle was a definite mistake. Putting that at the end of the album was one of my biggest thrills in the process.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

nearly complete Jaws CD order either.

Isnt Jaws 25th anniversary complete? (as far as music composed for usage in the movie)

[Romão 2,274]

It really depends on the score. Some of hi one cd releases are wonderful listening experiences, albeit not complete nor in chronological order, where as several of his scores work wonderfully as expanded releases, in chronological order. I would say the original cd releases of ET, Jaws and the Fury are better listening experiences than their expanded releases, where as Raiders, Close Encounters (mainly for the non truncated finale) and the Star Wars OT work much much better in the expanded format.

Some scores, in which the thematic and musical development are carefully developed throughout the score, such as Memoirs of a Geisha, could probably work wonderfully in a complete expanded release, as much as I love the original album.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Isnt film order the best order most of the time as themes would usually develop over the course of a score?

That's my take on the whole thing. I think it makes the most sense to hear the music in order, giving a sense of beginning, middle, and end to the composer's work. Otherwise, it could be like listening to a symphony with the movements out of order. However, as has been mentioned, albums like the original releases of Jaws and E.T. contain numerous self-contained pieces and work well in the order they're presented on album.

Ray Barnsbury

[John Crichton 4]

I think my chronological obsession is well known by now. It's the only order that makes any sense to me.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm happy with the order that's given to me when I buy the CD. I like everything perfect, the way it was originally intended, artwork and tracklist. I'm kinda OCD like that.

[Datameister 2,044]

I'm happy with the order that's given to me when I buy the CD. I like everything perfect, the way it was originally intended, artwork and tracklist. I'm kinda OCD like that.

I know what you mean--except my OCD manifests itself in getting the true original intention, which is the chronological order according to the film.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Which cannot be the original intention, since it is often decided after the music is already composed and recorded.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

That's my take on the whole thing. I think it makes the most sense to hear the music in order, giving a sense of beginning, middle, and end to the composer's work. Otherwise, it could be like listening to a symphony with the movements out of order. However, as has been mentioned, albums like the original releases of Jaws and E.T. contain numerous self-contained pieces and work well in the order they're presented on album.

Ray Barnsbury

That may not be the case with every score composed... Williams works that way, and that's why his scores always sound good. But they sound even better after arranged for proper performance.

[Trent B 337]

I am in the camp who prefers the chronological order and complete.

[Guest macrea]

There was no excuse for having the original 1-CD Phantom Menace be so full of edits and out of order, not to mention the same music presented twice. There was certainly enough good cues to simply pick some and put them on a 75-minute CD with minimal editing. Hook is a great example. The album is basically in order and most of the cues are intact. Sure, the diehard fans want the rest of the score, but that was a well put together album.

[indy4 155]

It would be MUCH better if the end credits were included.

[Hellgi 0]

As far as I know, many (if not most) composers oversee themselves the track listing and order for their soundtracks. The OST being one of the only medium over which they have some control, they do usually take the time to work on it or - at least - to approve the final version.

My personal preference is to get the score in listening order. However, especially nowadays, between the time that the composer wrote the score and the final movie gets in theater, scenes get cut, moved, replaced or even deleted. The music is sometimes heavily edited by the music editor, and what you get on the final soundtrack is rarely what the composer wrote...

I think the question in itself is interesting... For example, if I had to take only one Star Wars Episode 1 CD, I would (personally) favor the original 1-CD release. Even though it is missing crucial parts from JW's score, it is nonetheless better presented than the 2-CD release in my opinion. (As far as I know JW didn't oversee the 2-CD release, he didn't care much for it).

I've heard multiple times that John Williams believes what's on a CD should not be exact same thing than what's in the film. He considers the CD as a medium in itself and always tries to create some sort of "listening experience", so that the music makes sense from the first track to the last. In a sense, music that is on a CD should be good enough to live on its own (away from the film), and thus does not necessarily need to be in chronological order.

So, usually I take what JW gives me and don't change the track order. Although I must admit that I do not always agree with his choices.

There was no excuse for having the original 1-CD Phantom Menace be so full of edits and out of order, not to mention the same music presented twice. There was certainly enough good cues to simply pick some and put them on a 75-minute CD with minimal editing. Hook is a great example. The album is basically in order and most of the cues are intact. Sure, the diehard fans want the rest of the score, but that was a well put together album.

Since the 2-CD release is basically exactly what's in the movie, it's also full of edits (although edits in chronological order).

I know JW didn't put his stamp (to say it lightly) on the whole "duel of the fates" disaster so when I hear it at the end of the "Ultimate Edition" release I want to throw up.

My personal favorite are the original trilogy Special Edition CDs. They might be some stuff missing but I love the way the music is presented; pretty much in chronological order, with most of the full orchestra suites, some extra music and great booklet. *That's* what I want

Hellgi

[John Crichton 4]

The original TMP OST is a hellish mess that almost makes the UE look good. Seriously. Awful cue selection, with many of the blander underscore cues making it onto the disc over the score's many highlights, cues from opposite ends of the score squashed together on the same track. Oh, and the Arrival at Coruscant cue is on there twice. Ugh.

[Red 75]

There was no excuse for having the original 1-CD Phantom Menace be so full of edits and out of order, not to mention the same music presented twice. There was certainly enough good cues to simply pick some and put them on a 75-minute CD with minimal editing. Hook is a great example. The album is basically in order and most of the cues are intact. Sure, the diehard fans want the rest of the score, but that was a well put together album.

Well, Hook is one of those cases when a complete release is badly needed. Every minute of that score is worth it.

[bondo 33]

I've yet to hear a score that sounds better in NON-chronological order.

[Datameister 2,044]

The original TMP OST is a hellish mess that almost makes the UE look good. Seriously. Awful cue selection, with many of the blander underscore cues making it onto the disc over the score's many highlights, cues from opposite ends of the score squashed together on the same track. Oh, and the Arrival at Coruscant cue is on there twice. Ugh.

Agreed. Despite the UE's many problems, I have difficulty understanding why anyone would take the OST over the UE.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

The original TMP OST is a hellish mess that almost makes the UE look good. Seriously. Awful cue selection, with many of the blander underscore cues making it onto the disc over the score's many highlights, cues from opposite ends of the score squashed together on the same track. Oh, and the Arrival at Coruscant cue is on there twice. Ugh.

I agree it was poorly done. However, the same approach was applied to the original Star Wars scores when they were first released too. I still love the order and edits from the Empire Strikes Back double vinyl LP. They all work so well! I'd love there to be an official release on CD of the original Empire double album, if only for nostalgics like me.

[indy4 155]

The original TMP OST is a hellish mess that almost makes the UE look good. Seriously. Awful cue selection, with many of the blander underscore cues making it onto the disc over the score's many highlights, cues from opposite ends of the score squashed together on the same track. Oh, and the Arrival at Coruscant cue is on there twice. Ugh.

Agreed. Despite the UE's many problems, I have difficulty understanding why anyone would take the OST over the UE.

I would - I guess I just like the concert versions and stuff better than the actual versions.

[Datameister 2,044]

They all work so well! I'd love there to be an official release on CD of the original Empire double album, if only for nostalgics like me.

Why not just edit it for yourself?

[John Crichton 4]

The original TMP OST is a hellish mess that almost makes the UE look good. Seriously. Awful cue selection, with many of the blander underscore cues making it onto the disc over the score's many highlights, cues from opposite ends of the score squashed together on the same track. Oh, and the Arrival at Coruscant cue is on there twice. Ugh.

I agree it was poorly done. However, the same approach was applied to the original Star Wars scores when they were first released too. I still love the order and edits from the Empire Strikes Back double vinyl LP. They all work so well! I'd love there to be an official release on CD of the original Empire double album, if only for nostalgics like me.

Yeah, and I wasn't around for all of that, at least not a score fan. My first proper film score experience were the Star Wars SEs so it's probably only natural that that's the "philosophy" that I fall into.

[Hellgi 0]

I find interesting the fact that JW put "Hymn to the Fallen" twice on Saving Private Ryan's OST, even though Spielberg specifically mentioned that he wanted the piece to appear only at the end of the film, to create some sort of "after-the-fact" thought-process on what the film was about.

I never really understood why JW put it at the beginning of the CD. (*and* a 2nd time at the end of the CD, for that matter).

Although it's one of my favorite William's piece

Hellgi

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, putting the exact same cue into a CD twice = bad.

[Hellgi 0]

Yeah, putting the exact same cue into a CD twice = bad.

"Dry Your Tears, Afrika" is a good example too... what is it doing at the beginning of the Amistad OST? It's not even the suite version... and it shows up in a shorter version at the end!

Never got that either

[pixie_twinkle 48]

They all work so well! I'd love there to be an official release on CD of the original Empire double album, if only for nostalgics like me.

Why not just edit it for yourself?

I may do at some point, but I don't own a record player anymore so I'll have to transfer it to CD first.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Yeah, putting the exact same cue into a CD twice = bad.

In the case of SPR, with the complete score already in the CD, is not bad.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, but it's not needed either.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

It worked for Orff's Carmina Burana!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The movie-trailer-King?

Don't make me laugh!

[pixie_twinkle 48]

That's him! The guy who wrote the theme from The Omen (if you believe the question writers of Trivial Pursuit!)

[fommes 153]

Generally Williams is bad at arranging his soundtracks in listening order. Cases in point: all those edits - even just a few missing seconds - on the albums that leave out the best material (Prisoner of Azkaban), a jumbled up order which makes for a really bad listening experience (War of the Worlds).

But with films that don't have a lot of music, it generally works out for the best though: Seven Years in Tibet, Monsignor, Munich (although the best cues on that are almost all in the beginning), Nixon, etc. These are albums I don't want to mess with.

Overall, I applaud arranging the album, but we should also be granted the complete score, or arrange the album in chronological order without awkward edits (or missing seconds).

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

I was going to make some coments...

But let me just say this instead: I can't believe some of the things some people wrote in this thread!

It's not so much a diference of opinions, is that some of them are unthinkable of... Or so I feel.

Miguel, who will avoid this thread from now on.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

What comments are you referring to?

If you've started avoiding this thread already you won't see this question so you don't need to answer it.

[Ollie 1,059]

I was going to make some coments...

But let me just say this instead: I can't believe some of the things some people wrote in this thread!

It's not so much a diference of opinions, is that some of them are unthinkable of... Or so I feel.

Miguel, who will avoid this thread from now on.

I feel that way about alot of the threads around here Miguel...

There are certain albums, like the Star Wars original trilogy, that I prefer to listen to in order but then there are albums, like A.I. for instance, that I actually prefer the out of order arrangement.

I generally happy with the way composers/producers arrange their albums. I just enjoy listening to the music and don't worry about associating it with the film.