Eric_JWFAN 11 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 This movie presents an interesting dilemma. When scoring a period film, a composer can choose to incorporate the style and instrumentation reminiscent of that period. But what do you do when the movie takes place 10,000 years ago? This predates just about every documented music artifact. Yeah some tribe 10,000 years ago might have made a 5-hole flute out of animal bone, and sure they had drums not to mention the human voice itself, but writing a score for voice, bone flute and primitive drum would obviously not be commercially viable.It's a shame too. The filmmakers seem to have tried creating as pure and accurate a portrayel of the prehistoric era as possible (using the little information we know about it). They even purposely avoided casting well known actors because they thought it'd look out of place. And when I heard that composer Harald Kloser actually produced and co-wrote the script, I got my hopes up that he might actually attempt something very primitive and go against the Hollywood grain, but after hearing the soundtrack he didn't quite do that. I guess you really can't on a major motion picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 But this is a problem with any film taking place before music notation and documentation.No film set in ancient rome has an historically accurate score, wether it was scored by Rosza or Zimmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,267 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 From what I remember, Rozsa did studied what is believed to have been the music of the Roman Empire. Zimmer, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 I know, yet he used violins in Ben Hur, an instrument that was not invented (in the form we know now) some 1600 years after the events in that film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_JWFAN 11 Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 But this is a problem with any film taking place before music notation and documentation.No film set in ancient rome has an historically accurate score, wether it was scored by Rosza or Zimmer.True, but most of the time those composers will at least feature a solo instrument of that period or maybe use a particular mode that might have been used. I find this film particularly interesting because it predates any pitched instrument that would be even remotely pleasing to a a movie audience. There's really nothing to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,267 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Of course, you're right.But then I will answer you with Star Wars... And remember why Lucas wanted a traditional symphonic score?To give us something we already knew to relate to...I wouldn't say that would be the case in Ben-Hur, or at least to some extent, one can relate to it, even without a musical idiom one can easily relate to.But for this new picture, if we were given an incidental score (not source music), that lacked the emotional punch one may need to relate to the events in the screen, the film may have just missed the point... Filmakers are doing it for a certain audience, and have to find ways to comunicate with that audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 True, film music is mostly used to communicate either emotion or pace, it's often not very usefull to establish authenticity.Anyway....Did you guys know this film was actually co-written by a film composer?It's a shame too. The filmmakers seem to have tried creating as pure and accurate a portrayel of the prehistoric era as possible (using the little information we know about it).What scientific evidence supports the theory that primitive man head dreadlocks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,806 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 It's a shame too. The filmmakers seem to have tried creating as pure and accurate a portrayel of the prehistoric era as possible (using the little information we know about it)Is that true?What i saw in the trailer was some prehistoric men using mamooths as burden beasts, and attacking a Egyptian empire like city.I thought i read they had gone the opposite, just making a fun movie without historical accuracy...Anyway....Did you guys know this film was actually co-written by a film composer? yes, the starter of the thread already stated that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_JWFAN 11 Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 It's a shame too. The filmmakers seem to have tried creating as pure and accurate a portrayel of the prehistoric era as possible (using the little information we know about it)Is that true?What i saw in the trailer was some prehistoric men using mamooths as burden beasts, and attacking a Egyptian empire like city.I thought i read they had gone the opposite, just making a fun movie without historical accuracy...Yeah now that you mention the Egyptian empire looking city, maybe not. But the filmmakers spent 18 months just on research, so one would hope they were attempting to stay as true as possible to what we know about prehistoric life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Realism? In an Emmerich film? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnifex 5 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Miguel can you enlighten me more about Rozsa researching music of the Antiquity? To my knowledge there are no evidence of music from the Roman Empire, we know some intruments and occasions, in which they were used, but nothing like chord theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric_JWFAN 11 Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 Miguel can you enlighten me more about Rozsa researching music of the Antiquity? To my knowledge there are no evidence of music from the Roman Empire, we know some intruments and occasions, in which they were used, but nothing like chord theories.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_ancient_Rome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 1,267 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Miguel can you enlighten me more about Rozsa researching music of the Antiquity? To my knowledge there are no evidence of music from the Roman Empire, we know some intruments and occasions, in which they were used, but nothing like chord theories.I can't be of much help... I'm pretty sure I read some interview were Rozsa said something in those lines... But nothing specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 I think it was mentioned in the liners to the rhino set of Ben Hur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 But this is a problem with any film taking place before music notation and documentation.No film set in ancient rome has an historically accurate score, wether it was scored by Rosza or Zimmer.Actually, a little notation from that era has survived. Some of it is really interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnifex 5 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Miguel can you enlighten me more about Rozsa researching music of the Antiquity? To my knowledge there are no evidence of music from the Roman Empire, we know some intruments and occasions, in which they were used, but nothing like chord theories.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_ancient_RomeNothing new there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,068 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Anyway....Did you guys know this film was actually co-written by a film composer?Apparently he's taken Devlin's spot.Emmerich and Kloser have another film called 2012 that's being shopped around to studios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnifex 5 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 But this is a problem with any film taking place before music notation and documentation.No film set in ancient rome has an historically accurate score, wether it was scored by Rosza or Zimmer.Actually, a little notation from that era has survived. Some of it is really interesting.That is a reconstruction of ancient Greek music. No guarantees that Romans ever used it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitch 58 Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 2012...the end of civilization as we know it....by which time Alma and I will be safely aboard the S.S. Poseidon or is it the S.S. Botany Bay??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Yeah now that you mention the Egyptian empire looking city, maybe not. But the filmmakers spent 18 months just on research, so one would hope they were attempting to stay as true as possible to what we know about prehistoric life.They spent 18 months doing research. Is that what you are saying Eric? 18 months! I would like to know where they did this research, considering they are speaking effing English in effing 10,000 BC!!!!!!Holy eff that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen in cinema history. This movie is garbage.Let's not forget that a bad composer co-wrote the script! That makes the movie even worse, when a composer that can barely write notes is writing a screenplay.*Damn filters! This is a moment where I need vulgarity to express my anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 600 years old.Add another zero, but otherwise, yeah.BTW, at this point I am voluntarily stepping out of this thread to avoid debate.You must have a lot of trouble watching Jurassic Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Or 2001: A Space Odysey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeshopk 8 Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 From what I remember, Rozsa did studied what is believed to have been the music of the Roman Empire. Zimmer, I don't know.Actually, I was taught at Berklee that he basically invented the Hollywood "Roman"sound by incorporating his own country's modal folk music influences, just with brass. So it's not accurate in the least, but it's what we now think of as appropriate. I studied it and found from the flute relic scales it would most likely have middle eastern type scales. The "brass" was really rudimentary, and could never play anything like Rosza wrote.Regarding accuracy in music for time period, I don't think the goal of a film score should be to mimic the music of the time period, rather to function the same as any score. It's just as reasonless to include techno just because it takes place in modern times, or synth because it is in "the future". Of course, these kinds of scores have helped submerge people into the setting, but the movie ideally should describe the setting while the music ideally should function in a dramatic manner. I think Williams mentioned when scoring Angela's Ashes he did not want to write Irish music, as in Far and Away, and I see his reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,240 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I'm too lazy to check, but as far as I remember, the Ben-Hur liner notes say that Rozsa studied some ancient *Greek* music because of the lack of surviving Roman music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw_researcher 0 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 There is also nothing "historically accurate" about film editing, closeups, and long shots.I am reminded of a famous quote David Raksin made when Alfred Hitchcock "where does the music come from" when he was scoring lifeboat. "You tell me where the camera comes from, and I'll tell you where the music comes from".I'm too lazy to check, but as far as I remember, the Ben-Hur liner notes say that Rozsa studied some ancient *Greek* music because of the lack of surviving Roman music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Anyway....Did you guys know this film was actually co-written by a film composer? I'd love it if the script were as good as the man's scores. It's been a while since Emmerich has served up something that one could pour rightous indignation on, guilt free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,068 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I must say the cgi saber tooth tiger looks pretty damn convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 It's about time they'd get CG animals right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,068 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 The mammoths look a little fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Most of the shots of seen of the film look very obviously CG, and completely uninvolving. But I guess those could be unfinished effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Let's not forget that a bad composer co-wrote the script! That makes the movie even worse, when a composer that can barely write notes is writing a screenplay.Kloser is a competent composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Of all his work I've only heard "The day after tomorrow", but that one was boring as hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,806 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 It's about time they'd get CG animals rightThey do, from time to time...JP dinos...King KongAslanNOT golden compass though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 It's about time they'd get CG animals rightThey do, from time to time...JP dinos...King KongIronic that those are "larger than life" animals - that is, imaginary. Real animals they still seem to struggle to make realistic. Perhaps it's because we are familiar with them (as opposed to dinosaurs and giant apes) and can recognise their natural movements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,806 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 a giant ape is well, and oversized gorilla. If it did not acted like a normal size ape i would have not included it there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 It's about time they'd get CG animals rightThey do, from time to time...JP dinos...King KongIronic that those are "larger than life" animals - that is, imaginary. Real animals they still seem to struggle to make realistic. Perhaps it's because we are familiar with them (as opposed to dinosaurs and giant apes) and can recognise their natural movements.The details of those natural movements, they seem to miss, so they'll need the DNA of a frog so they can fill in the holes and complete the CODE! Now... we can make a CG dinosaur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob 0 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 It's about time they'd get CG animals rightThey do, from time to time...JP dinos...King KongAslanNOT golden compass though Don't forget Boga:Okaaay, that wasn't even funny. Move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 It's about time they'd get CG animals rightThey do, from time to time...JP dinos...King KongAslanNOT golden compass though King Kong wasn't that realistic looking. The dinosaurs looked very fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 The dinos in King Kong looked fake (nowhere near as good as Jurassic Park, 12 years earlier!), but the gorilla himself looked very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Kong is one of the best CG achievements in film. It's right up there with Gollum and Davy Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Kong is indeed amazing. So amazing, that he feels out of place to me, in what I think is a mess of a movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 The dinos in King Kong looked fake (nowhere near as good as Jurassic Park, 12 years earlier!), but the gorilla himself looked very good.Yeah, I was just talking about the dinosaurs, not Kong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,068 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 The first appearance of the T-Rex from Jurassic Park remains to this day one of the best moments in CGI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 If not the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Agreed. The darkness and the rain probably helped, but the scene is still shockingly realistic to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Yes, kids rummaging around for a flashlight to point it at the T-Rex like food begging to be eaten is unfortunately realistic. If I were in Alan Grant's position, I'd have let the Rex eat the little brats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Well for two allegedly clever children - one an expert on dinosaurs and the other, presumably with common sense - it really was stupid of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,806 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 It's about time they'd get CG animals rightThey do, from time to time...JP dinos...King KongAslanNOT golden compass though King Kong wasn't that realistic looking. The dinosaurs looked very fake.I was speaking of Just King Kong the ape, not movie.It's about time they'd get CG animals rightThey do, from time to time...JP dinos...King KongAslanNOT golden compass though Don't forget Boga:Okaaay, that wasn't even funny. Move along.Seriously, I really forgot her.Thats the best CGI riding experience on cinema yet. At it moves realistically. But it is an alien...Well for two allegedly clever children - one an expert on dinosaurs and the other, presumably with common sense - it really was stupid of them.It was lex (girls.... ). Tim really knew that the light should not have been lighted and clearly says her to put it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Yeah but wasn't she little miss hacker? Again, presumably with common sense.Then again, she was barely able to tell the difference between the herbivores and the carnivores so I shouldn't expect too much from her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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