benefactor 3 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 So let's begin..."Journey to the Line" - from Thin Red Line by Hans Zimmer can be found again in "Anakin's Betrayal" in Revenge of the Sith Stealing from Zimmer of all people...tsk tsk tsk.I listened both cues back to back and I honestly can't hear any similarities. At what point on "Anakin's Betrayal" you've found traces of the "Journey to the Line"?Are you sure you named cues correctly? Nice thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter Boelen 740 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Again, that was intentional.That makes sense; I can't believe John Williams would write something so similar without doing it on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ins 42 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 What springs me in mind:American Journey: Arts and Sports I hear some Witches of EastwickEmpire of Sun: Chopin Op13 Nr 4 (intended, too obvious)Empire of Sun: aswell in the Patriot the british grenadier (no clue what's the original title is, but i guess some britsh army march)AI: somewhere other mentioned but if i recall correctly a quote of Strauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 907 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Empire of Sun: Chopin Op13 Nr 4 (intended, too obvious)Empire of Sun: aswell in the Patriot the british grenadier (no clue what's the original title is, but i guess some britsh army march)AI: somewhere other mentioned but if i recall correctly a quote of StraussUhm, do you even know what plagiarism is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Brausam 215 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Empire of Sun: Chopin Op13 Nr 4 (intended, too obvious)Empire of Sun: aswell in the Patriot the british grenadier (no clue what's the original title is, but i guess some britsh army march)AI: somewhere other mentioned but if i recall correctly a quote of StraussThose are all intentional, and in the case of EoS, noted on the album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Isn't the opening of Sick Triceratops quite similar to a Patrick Doyle piece as well?Patrick Doyle has written a hell of alot of pieces, narrowing it down wouldn't hurt.For my sake, I'd certainly be interested in hearing it."The Death of Falstaff" from Henry V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Empire of Sun: Chopin Op13 Nr 4 (intended, too obvious)Empire of Sun: aswell in the Patriot the british grenadier (no clue what's the original title is, but i guess some britsh army march)AI: somewhere other mentioned but if i recall correctly a quote of StraussThose are all intentional, and in the case of EoS, noted on the album.And the AI one is discussed at length on the DVD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The AI one is in "To Rouge City", FYI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I'm sure Williams has borrowed from classical music,I'm pretty sure he never copied a melody from Zimmer; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neimoidian 14 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I could name a lot of examples when Williams wrote a melody similar to something he did elsewhere. Some are due to his style, some come up by accident (it's hardly possible he remembers all the tunes he has ever written) but very rarely he makes a blatant rip-off like Horner tends. Some of my 'favourites' are:"Make me rainbows" from "Fitzwilly" and "In the Moonlight" from "Sabrina" (similar melody)a motif from Nixon's "Turbulent Years" in "Across the Stars""Belly of the Steel Beast" from "IJ&TLC" and "Revenge of the Sith" from "RotS" & "Return to Boston" - "WotW". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 Thanks Mark Olivarez, for once again, bringing wisdom into this dark world.Anyways as for my first example:I'll give you the specific track time:0:32-0:39And a slightly more modified statement at 1:02-1:08. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maglorfin 196 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Man, you'd almost think that Williams is even worse than Horner when it comes to plagiarism ... All composers have borrowed from themselves or others.Exactly. I guess I'd do it myself if I were a composer, if nothing else, just for the fun of it every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steb74 53 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Isn't the opening of Sick Triceratops quite similar to a Patrick Doyle piece as well?Patrick Doyle has written a hell of alot of pieces, narrowing it down wouldn't hurt.For my sake, I'd certainly be interested in hearing it."The Death of Falstaff" from Henry V.Cheers Henry, interesting.I remember my first impressions of Sick Triceratops gave my a faint sense of Elgar, not too much but something that for me at least reminded me of the Enigma Variations.After listening to "The Death of Falstaff" I certainly get a similar Elgar vibe, perhaps even a touch more.Now this is just my opinion but I honestly don't believe Williams really listens to film scores, classical/concert works, etc, yes I think he does but not movie music.My original point with the Zimmer piece mentioned was that I don't believe Williams has modelled any of his work based on that particular piece. For me it's much more a simple case of any similarities that exist are due to both works originating from something in the more traditional classical repertoire.I'm just mentioning that again Henry as I feel the Doyle and Williams pieces most certainly share close similarities but I think that is because they are derived from a similar origin elsewhere, I don't know man it's just my opinion.I believe 100% that Williams has taken and absorbed massive amounts of musical information from the classical world, melodic, harmonic, rhythmical, textural and I love that. It amazes me how he can take these little nuggets and create totally valid pieces of his own.With regards to this musical material in general I'm sure it's quite common. David Arnold has used it in Independence Day and another score I was listening to recently but I can't remember which one, possibly Amazing Grace ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Actually, it's very likely that "The Death of Falstaff" was used in the temp track for Jurassic Park and Williams was asked to stick closely to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 That is probably the case. Film composers don't have it all to themselves, the director and/or producer has a huge influence also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 48 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Indeed..."Good artists copy...great artists steal." "I stole that chord from Mahler's 4th Symphony. Don't borrow from other composers, steal."George Crumb discussing his "Music for a Summer Evening" with me two years ago.Back to Williams: Can You Read My Mind, and Strauss Tod und Verklarung. The main melody (opening 5 notes, which form the entire "hook" or "head motive" of the melody) is almost identical. And before you theorists start pointing out that Williams' theme is CEGED, whereas Strauss is CDEED, the end result is practically identical, right down to rhythm, contour, tempo, meter, and most importantly harmony. The I chord going to the major II on the downbeat of the second measure is so instantly recognisable as Strauss or Williams that it's impossible to hear one without thinking of the other. In Williams' defense, he took that motive and wrote a beautiful continuation of it that Strauss never did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fommes 153 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Well, he did rip off that Seven Years in Tibet ending for that Elegy on the Yo-Yo Ma CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASW 0 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Didn't Goldsmith say something similar?I believe it was something like this: "We all copy/steal from time to time, only the good ones don't get caught".I remember a quote from him that went like "we've all helped ourselves to the works of others" or something to that effect. I believe he was talking about James Horner on that one. An example of Williams plagiarism I've remembered is a section from the action cues near the climax of Superman that sounds a bit like a passage from the credits section of Throne Room/End Titles. I realize that's not very descriptive but I don't have a track title for the Superman cue or track times handy at the moment. ASW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fommes 153 Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 The only striking bit of borrowing that has ever bothered me in JW that can be separated from his method/style of writing themes that most 'plagiarism' can be debunked to, is his Delerue temp-track copy in Hook. Agnes of God or something I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,211 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 There's a bit of The Sea Hawk in Hook.Schindler's Workforce is clearly a variation on Kilar's Exodus (which was used for the trailer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ins 42 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 It includes every bit of quoting and "inspiration" from own or others scores you can think of, honey.Empire of Sun: Chopin Op13 Nr 4 (intended, too obvious)Empire of Sun: aswell in the Patriot the british grenadier (no clue what's the original title is, but i guess some britsh army march)AI: somewhere other mentioned but if i recall correctly a quote of StraussUhm, do you even know what plagiarism is?So, what's wrong?Anyone has the name of the original "british grenadiers"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 The things you meantioned were used on purpose and rightly credited to the original composers, (with the exception of british grenadiers in the Patriot)Plagiarism is borrow a tune from other composer, do not credit that composer of course and present it as if it were a original composition of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 907 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 It includes every bit of quoting and "inspiration" from own or others scores you can think of, honey.Empire of Sun: Chopin Op13 Nr 4 (intended, too obvious)Empire of Sun: aswell in the Patriot the british grenadier (no clue what's the original title is, but i guess some britsh army march)AI: somewhere other mentioned but if i recall correctly a quote of StraussUhm, do you even know what plagiarism is?So, what's wrong?I was going by the thread title which contained the word plagiarism, so I was wondering why you posted about pieces that obviously aren't plagiarised, hence my comment.I missed the second post by the OP and assumed the thread was about plagiarism as the thread title indicated.Kind of confusing when the word plagiarism is used in the thread title and the thread isn't about plagiarism at all.Serious thread or not, I'm surprised at how the word plagiarism is thrown around as though it's nothing serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ins 42 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hehe.After your post I came into the same trouble as seeing how quoting can be plagiarism. So it's just a confusing thread title and I think you are eventually right that this is a contradiction in terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 907 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Hehe.After your post I came into the same trouble as seeing how quoting can be plagiarism. So it's just a confusing thread title and I think you are eventually right that this is a contradiction in terms.Actually there is such a thing as self-plagiarism, but a key part of it is an attempt to decieve the audiance that your words, and I guess music too, haven't been published before when they have. Personally I just can't comprehend these pieces that share a similiar style, sound, or a few notes show that John sits in his office and says, "Ha, I'll just use that melody I wrote before to save me writing a new one. No one will ever know, Muhahah" But I do find interesting hearing about pieces that sound similar, I just personally wouldn't use the word plagiarism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaid72000 0 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I mean, come on, James Horner is too easy. If this is successful, we can move on to Jerry Goldsmith. So let's begin..."Journey to the Line" - from Thin Red Line by Hans Zimmer can be found again in "Anakin's Betrayal" in Revenge of the Sith Stealing from Zimmer of all people...tsk tsk tsk. I'm giving up my life to participate in this great cause, so please help me!Tell Me where to listen and compare to both?Link: YouTube- Thin Red Line- Journey to the Line.I hear no simularities.The 1960's: The Turbulent Years from Nixon is pretty much The Imperial March.I can kind of tell its there, but listen for youselfsLink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steb74 53 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Tell Me where to listen and compare to both?With regard to the youtube video, the music in question is threaded throughout alot of the composition in the lower strings but it really kicks in at about 3.57 with the higher strings playing a descending 3 note line following each chord change.You will hear similar things in the Williams piece but not as repeated or at least for me the Williams piece doesn't sound as repetitive. I do like Journey to the Line but it does at times sound more like an extended counterpoint exercise.I'm not ripping Zimmer by any means, I know you can't say anything without being called a basher or a Williams worshiper.It's just for me personally the Williams piece has, dare I say an almost infinite amount more emotional satisfaction compared to Zimmer's piece.I just don't believe Williams used it as a guide for his own work as it's such a rudimentary compositional device to begin with.Very effective I might add though.Anyway, I'll leave it there - I can already sense the anger brewing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 thanks for the thin red line link.What a crappy piece i must add... I really dont think Williams used this as base at all, regarding the similarity, the main melody, which Williams used once and the zimmer piece is based on it. (awfully repeptitive)And since ROTS is not a Spielberg movie, i have yet to hear George Lucas praising Zimmer. (to warrant a temptrack usage) If something was tracked, possibly something classical was used, like in SW.BTW Saving Private ryan, kicks the ass out of this...and the synth sound *shivers* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted March 18, 2008 Author Share Posted March 18, 2008 I just don't believe Williams used it as a guide for his own work as it's such a rudimentary compositional device to begin with.Very effective I might add though.Anyway, I'll leave it there - I can already sense the anger brewing.Nah, you can argue what you believe, we don't really know how John Williams came to use those succession of descending notes. For all we know, Zimmer is his lazy alter ego. But personally for me, Journey to the Line works better because it's a bit more...restrained shall we say?But then again RotS is on a galactic scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steb74 53 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 I just don't believe Williams used it as a guide for his own work as it's such a rudimentary compositional device to begin with.Very effective I might add though.Anyway, I'll leave it there - I can already sense the anger brewing.Nah, you can argue what you believe, we don't really know how John Williams came to use those succession of descending notes. For all we know, Zimmer is his lazy alter ego. But personally for me, Journey to the Line works better because it's a bit more...restrained shall we say?But then again RotS is on a galactic scale.??errr, that's nice dear, thanks for the update... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,068 Posted March 18, 2008 Author Share Posted March 18, 2008 It's just for me personally the Williams piece has, dare I say an almost infinite amount more emotional satisfaction compared to Zimmer's piece.No problem, love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASW 0 Posted March 18, 2008 Share Posted March 18, 2008 Didn't Goldsmith say something similar?I believe it was something like this: "We all copy/steal from time to time, only the good ones don't get caught".I remember a quote from him that went like "we've all helped ourselves to the works of others" or something to that effect. I believe he was talking about James Horner on that one. An example of Williams plagiarism I've remembered is a section from the action cues near the climax of Superman that sounds a bit like a passage from the credits section of Throne Room/End Titles. I realize that's not very descriptive but I don't have a track title for the Superman cue or track times handy at the moment. ASW2:05-2:21 - "Chasing Rockets" from Superman (the Rhino release), the string motif under the brass1:26-1:30ish in "The Battle of Yavin" and after the first grand statement of the Rebel Fanfare in "Throne Room/End Titles" (around 2:20ish), also under the brassI'm not sure if it quite qualifies as plagiarism now that I've listened to these again, but they are kind of similar. Incidentally, there's something that also sounds similar at the 9:46 mark of "Bavmorda's Spell is Cast" in Horner's Willow, which I should probably have posted in the Horner thread but whatever. Not sure if this counts as plagiarism either... just thought I'd bring them up. Thoughts? ASW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benefactor 3 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Anyways as for my first example:I'll give you the specific track time:0:32-0:39And a slightly more modified statement at 1:02-1:08.Regarding Journey for the Line and Anakin's Betrayal imagenary similarity - if this is called plagiarism then every composer in the world is plagiarist.I think this was joke, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelzter 0 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I hear Hans Zimmer's Gladiator in Hans Zimmer's The Thin Red Line, not Anakin's Betrayal. Betrayal is much more a mix of several well-used Williams chord progressions - and, believe it or not, a motif lifted from the El Toro Destroyed cue in David Arnold's Independence Day score (1:04-1:12 from that track). I noticed the latter the very first time I heard it, and the piece thus had no great effect on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter Boelen 740 Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 Does anyone think there's some similarity between the Nuclear Man theme and Keeping Up With the Joneses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,796 Posted March 22, 2008 Share Posted March 22, 2008 yes it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daredevil101888 0 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Lets not forget what Stravinsky once said: "Good composers borrow, Great composers steal." It's John Williams style that we all love so of course his style is going to be similar in his compositions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 11 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I guess it's fitting that he stole that saying from Picasso (who no doubt adopted it from someone else). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I thought Jerry Goldsmith said it?Anyhoo as I said earlier I think some people have mis-interpreted Blumenkohl's point of doing these threads.It was done in good humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 It was done in good humour.Since when did you become British, Mr. Olivarez? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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