Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull vs. The Dark Knight

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I watched Batman Begins again last week.

Anyone who still thinks that movie needs a big action adventure score completely missed the point of that film.

And go Bryant. You're better than some of the old grumps here.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Oh Lord!

If you love TDK score, I can't see why you shouldn't like most Zimmer scores of the past eight years, since it's really just more of the same. If anything, it just shows how good TDK really is to elevate *this* Zimmer score over the others.

Dear administrator, the argument is NOT that the two Nolan films need big action adventure scores like Elfman's; that was NEVER the point!

The point is the same as with almost each Zimmer "adventure" score, that he doesn't give a crap about the ambience of any given film (the last one he did give a damn was probably Da Vinci Code) and just produces Gladiator part 17.

Don't act as if there was no other choice than between Elfman 1989 and Zimmer 2008, you're embarassing yourself. These are two absolute extremes pitted against another, and there are countless composers and sounds in between that would have come up with something infinitely better than Zimmer's and Howard's snooze fest.

And don't even start telling me how all this is Nolan's choice - boring music is boring music. If you don't have an ear for music, hire someone who does, and not Hans Zimmer.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Dear administrator, the argument is NOT that the two Nolan films need big action adventure scores like Elfman's; that was NEVER the point!

It seems to be here:

My son was watching Batman Begins the other night and there were moments that just cried out for some sort of capable music to accompany the scenes.

and similar things have been stated many times.

(my apologies if I misinterpreted this specific remark by Mr. Olivarez though)

The point is the same as with almost each Zimmer "adventure" score, that he doesn't give a crap about the ambience of any given film (the last one he did give a damn was probably Da Vinci Code) and just produces Gladiator part 17.

Well, there's a point there. I didn't like the action music when Ghul's house blew up (I can only present arguments for Batman Begins). It was far too much standard Zimmer action fare.

Yet the bat sounds that are all over a score do indicate some effort was taken to at least create a sound for the film.

Don't act as if there was no other choice than between Elfman 1989 and Zimmer 2008, you're embarassing yourself. These are two absolute extremes pitted against another, and there are countless composers and sounds in between that would have come up with something infinitely better than Zimmer's and Howard's snooze fest.

True.

And don't even start telling me how all this is Nolan's choice - boring music is boring music. If you don't have an ear for music, hire someone who does, and not Hans Zimmer.

Perhaps. But not every movie needs to have something hummable. Many film score fans so badly want to have great music on those CDs (which are often a marketing tool, btw) they forget that a score has to service the picture first. I don't think Begins was spot-on every time, and I pretty much only ever listen to Molossus, which is a fun brainless romp, while the rest of the album just sits there and does nothing to grab my attention. The Dark Knight album also seemed to merely pass by without any true standouts to take notice of, although I've only heard it once.

I'm also not sure I would go and listen to something like Goldenthal's drum rhythm for Heat, but man is it effective within that film. I don't walk away from that movie humming the music either. I walk away thinking I just watched an excellent movie, and the music contributed to it.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

My son was watching Batman Begins the other night and there were moments that just cried out for some sort of capable music to accompany the scenes.

Capable music only means ... capable music; nowhere is the rule written that capable (= music written by someone who understands it) music means action adventure, with lots of orchestral mayhem and hummable themes.

[Wojo 2,453]

This poll asks which film I prefer, which is The Dark Knight. I'm considering driving two hours to see it in IMAX, which is something I considered doing for seeing Indiana Jones IV until I realized that movie wasn't playing in IMAX on opening weekend at that theatre (Speed Racer was), but I never wanted to see Indiana Jones IV since. I walked out of the Dark Knight thinking of all the good ways that they could make a sequel. I walked out of Indy IV thinking of all the reasons why a sequel should not be made.

As for score, I tried to pay attention to the music in The Dark Knight, but it wasn't happening. After about five minutes, I became so engrossed in the heist sequence, and who was shooting who, and William Fichtner's shotgun-toting cameo, that I didn't care about the music. It wasn't doing anything for me, no long sustained note or siren sound, I just didn't care. There were a few moments in the Hong Kong hang-gliding sequence that sounded like Pirates of the Caribbean, and the Batman-chord from Batman Begins was here and there, but other than that, The Dark Knight's music was purely forgettable. It may have added ambience and tension and emotion to the action onscreen, but the action's what I was paying attention to. So Zimmer stole from Hannibal, big deal. Hannibal was just as forgettable, movie, score and all. Not totally bashing Zimmer, because his music in the Pirates, Gladiator, and Lion King movies stayed with me out of the theatre. Bizarre.

As for Indy IV's music, I left the theatre humming the Raiders March all right, as I took my fedora back out to the car so I could shop with a proper ball cap on for the rest of the day. And I'd have listened to the Indy IV score on the way home if there wasn't a Penguins playoff game that night.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Alright, so that may have been a bad example.

I still stand by this though.

Anyone who still thinks [Batman Begins] needs a big action adventure score completely missed the point of that film.

[Hlao-roo 389]

That we so heartily commend scores that are "serviceable," "functional," "capable," "effective" -- that is to say, scores that satisfy only the miminal expectations of programmatic music and little more -- is emblematic of the sad state film music finds itself in today.

[Wojo 2,453]

Anyone who still thinks [Batman Begins] needs a big action adventure score completely missed the point of that film.

If it weren't a Batman movie, it might've required a big action adventure score, to match the globetrotting romp that it was.

But reinvent Batman as a brooding, complicated, self-doubting, anti-hero still finding his way, a dark brooding score fits just fine.

It might be a fun project to try and match parts of Burton's Batman (or any other heroic, fanfaric superhero score) to Nolan's Batman Begins to see what if anything fits. That sounds like a lot of work so I'm not interested.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

So far I agree. But like I said, the genre was never the debate, but the quality of the music.

Consider this: according to Zimmer, Batman has no identity, no real persona, so he didn't get a theme in Batman Begins, just that two note thing to represent that. Now in Dark Knight, we hear a theme. Why? Where did Batman earn it? And the two note motif is still there - why? So, does Batman have an identity now or not? If not, be consequent and don't write a new theme; if yes, get rid of the two note motif because it represents the opposite.

Maybe this is overanalysing this piece of toss, but since Zimmer keeps rambling on about his deep thoughts, let me point out the crippling inconsistencies.

But even more important, Zimmer just pays no attention to the split personality of Bruce Wayne, the duality of his person. And that is horrid if you think how present the struggle between his two lives is in the films. Instead of scoring both, or even one, he scores *none*, putting emphasis on the aspect he always emphasises: overly sappy melodrama.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

But reinvent Batman as a brooding, complicated, self-doubting, anti-hero still finding his way, a dark brooding score fits just fine.

Exactly.

It might be a fun project to try and match parts of Burton's Batman (or any other heroic, fanfaric superhero score) to Nolan's Batman Begins to see what if anything fits. That sounds like a lot of work so I'm not interested.

There's actually a clip of the tumbler chase from Begins that has some Elfman music under it on YouTube. I'm too lazy right now to look it up though.

[indy4 155]

Consider this: according to Zimmer, Batman has no identity, no real persona, so he didn't get a theme in Batman Begins, just that two note thing to represent that. Now in Dark Knight, we hear a theme.

Do you have a specific track time for that theme, I wasn't aware.

For the record, I hate the score to BB, with the exception of "Myotis" and "Molossus" (yes, the classic Zimmer action music).

TDK seems much better (though I have yet to fully listen to it), but I am expecting a good score from the snippets I've heard here and then.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

"I'm not a Hero" 6:00 - end

"Like A Dog Chasing Cars" 2:10- 3:30

"Introduce A Little Anarchy" 1:05- 1:25

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Hans Zimmer's score is the reason why Nolan wanted to come back and do The Dark Knight.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

That says more about Nolan than the score.

Why should that matter? A director may just as inept at film music as the next joe, lots of films proof that.

[Desplat13 1]

Alright, so that may have been a bad example.

I still stand by this though.

Anyone who still thinks [Batman Begins] needs a big action adventure score completely missed the point of that film.

For sure. But I still don't like what Zimmer did with it. In fact, a much LESS listenable and hummable score could have worked far better than what was there.

[FattyMcButterpants 1]

Exactly. It's not about "hummability" at all.

[King Mark 3,631]

That we so heartily commend scores that are "serviceable," "functional," "capable," "effective" -- that is to say, scores that satisfy only the miminal expectations of programmatic music and little more -- is emblematic of the sad state film music finds itself in today.

I was going to post something like that

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I don't see a problem with today's state of film music. Every generation is going to have good music and bad music. There is plenty of excellent music being composed these days.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

no there isn't, not like there was.

[Ollie 1,059]

And go Bryant. You're better than some of the old grumps here.

I wear that badge with honor.

Anyone who still thinks that movie needs a big action adventure score completely missed the point of that film.

While I think the clip of BB with Elfman's music tracked over it works so much better than HZ/JNH I never once stated it needed to be a big action score.

A good score does not have to be hummable and loaded with themes. I think Goldsmith's Planet Of The Apes is one of the greatest film scores composed but it ain't exactly hummable.

That we so heartily commend scores that are "serviceable," "functional," "capable," "effective" -- that is to say, scores that satisfy only the miminal expectations of programmatic music and little more -- is emblematic of the sad state film music finds itself in today.

A score's primary purpose is to serve the film it was composed for, anything else one can derive from it is a bonus. Perhaps we are in a time where while music is doing it's job, it's primarily wallpaper. Any joy we used to get from film scores is long gone, with the exception of a few.

Although it does appear one who does wish for the magic a film score away from the movie is now considered a dinosaur (or an old grump ) and not with it as far as current culture goes. Mediocrity seems to be the acceptable norm these days whether it's the education & discipline of children or film music.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Anyone who still thinks that movie needs a big action adventure score completely missed the point of that film.

While I think the clip of BB with Elfman's music tracked over it works so much better than HZ/JNH I never once stated it needed to be a big action score.

A good score does not have to be hummable and loaded with themes. I think Goldsmith's Planet Of The Apes is one of the greatest film scores composed but it ain't exactly hummable.

In your case, I stand corrected.

[Henry B 50]

Hans Zimmer's score is the reason why Nolan wanted to come back and do The Dark Knight.

I... guh... ?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

mediocre is spelled Z-I-M-M-E-R

I don't think either film needs a big time action score since neither film has tons of action.

But what is wrong with a score that is memorable

What is wrong with a score that is hummable.

There are those of us who hum a nice dark score as much as a nice lite one.

As wallpaper zimmer's score serves the film, however it does not enhance the film, it does not take it to another level.

There is some magic going on with Nolans film, there is no magic going on with the score.

As the old English B*tch in the Black Trenchcoat would say "Hans Zimmer, you are the weakest link, goodbye."

and even POTA score, despite what Mark said, was hummable, bizarrely so, and it was memorable.

[indy4 155]

There's nothing wrong with a hummable score, but one that is not is not necessarily a bad score. A score's quality should not be based on how "hummable" it is, it should be based on how nice of a listen it is and how much it enhances the film.

One example of a non-hummable score that generally is well reviewed here is Images.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

A score doesn't necessarily need to be hummable, but it should at least be interesting. Zimmer and Howard's scores aren't interesting, they're not even experimental. There's nothing daring in the score and they weren't ballsy enough to take any risks. It's just the same shtick that we've heard over and over again.

[Red 75]

Hans Zimmer's score is the reason why Nolan wanted to come back and do The Dark Knight.

Complete BS.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

A score doesn't necessarily need to be hummable, but it should at least be interesting. Zimmer and Howard's scores aren't interesting, they're not even experimental. There's nothing daring in the score and they weren't ballsy enough to take any risks. It's just the same shtick that we've heard over and over again.

Excuse me, Hans said f*ck the generic superhero score and did something entirely different.

Hans Zimmer's score is the reason why Nolan wanted to come back and do The Dark Knight.

Complete BS.

Says so in the liner notes, so take it up with Nolan.

[indy4 155]

They're definetly unoriginal, but TDK has a couple interesting moments.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Hans did nothing different, he did what he always does, creat a unmemorable score. He did not break new ground.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

As far as superhero scores go, he did.

[Henry B 50]

A score doesn't necessarily need to be hummable, but it should at least be interesting. Zimmer and Howard's scores aren't interesting, they're not even experimental. There's nothing daring in the score and they weren't ballsy enough to take any risks. It's just the same shtick that we've heard over and over again.

Excuse me, Hans said f*ck the generic superhero score and did something entirely different.

Namely, the generic action score.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Excuse me, Hans said f*ck the generic superhero score and did something entirely different.

Hans is beginning to sound like the Riddler.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

As far as superhero scores go, he did.

Superhero scores did not have generic MV action before he came. Now they (at least Nolan's Batman films) just sound like every other action movie...not to mention the knockoffs heard on TV series, videogames and commercials. If that is 'breaking new ground', well...I'm speechless

Hans Zimmer's score is the reason why Nolan wanted to come back and do The Dark Knight.

Nolan obviously has a tin ear.

Alright, so that may have been a bad example.

I still stand by this though.

Anyone who still thinks [Batman Begins] needs a big action adventure score completely missed the point of that film.

That doesn't make the scores for it and TDK better at all.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Alright, so that may have been a bad example.

I still stand by this though.

Anyone who still thinks [Batman Begins] needs a big action adventure score completely missed the point of that film.

That doesn't make the scores for it and TDK better at all.

No, but it's a good line for MV/RC apologists.

[Wojo 2,453]

As Anne Robinson would say "Hans Zimmer, you are the weakest link, goodbye."

[Bryant Burnette 654]

My god, some of you guys get so defensive on the subject of these new Batman scores . . . it's like you can't even entertain the notion that someone might be able to get something out of the music that you yourself cannot.

Like all music, film music primarily appeals to the emotions. That's my take on it, at least; others may have different criteria, I suppose. And for whatever reason, there seems to be something in the character of Batman that appeals to my emotions. Batman, of course, is an extremely mealleable character, and the darkness that is inherent in his character can be made to extend across a surprising range of emotion. The Zimmer/Howard scores seem to me to fit the movies like a glove, just as well as Elfman's scores fit the Burton movies (just as Goldenthal's scores, in a way, fit the Schumacher movies). But they come at it from a different sort of emotionality, and in order to appreciate that, you have to have those emotions before the music can work upon them. What it boils down to is that we're very different people, with different emotional needs and desires. There's probably a more specific way to explain that, but I don't care to take the time to sort it out enough in my own mind to be able to explain it. And I don't really care to; it's enough for me to know that it works for me, and that I'm by no means the only person for whom that's true.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

My god, some of you guys get so defensive on the subject of scores . . . it's like you can't even entertain the notion that someone might be able to get something out of the music that you yourself cannot.

Welcome to the wonderful world of JWFan.

Sometimes I wish this place was more like the HZ Forum, where there is absolutely no hostility, because everyone is in agreement and harmony. They all appreciate the music everyone here loves, and they love RCP. Everyone here cannot accept anything aside from their own extreme views, and I can even fall into that description. I went over there once, and there was a post: a guy saying he heard JW called HZ the greatest modern composer today. I replied saying HZ probably said JW is the greatest composer ever. He replied apologizing saying that his facts must have not been reliable. I was stunned that I didn't go into endless pages of arguments. I was trying to be a little pushy too. It's a pretty nice place down there.

[Henry B 50]

Of course it's a nice place if everyone agrees. But life isn't interesting without a healthy balance of conflict and agreement.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

But there is much more conflict here than agreement. I prefer here because there are a lot of decent people who provide good conversation and know how to properly discuss things. Many of the people at HZ are European and their English isn't very good.

I've thought about in the past of creating a new account and becoming a full blown RCP hater and JW admirer. A fresh start!

[indy4 155]

And I don't really care to; it's enough for me to know that it works for me, and that I'm by no means the only person for whom that's true.

This board, among other places, would be a better place if everyone adopted that attitude.

Of course it's a nice place if everyone agrees. But life isn't interesting without a healthy balance of conflict and agreement.

But it can be done so in a civilized manner, not in the my-way-or-the-highway manner so many of our members here have decided to adopt.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

We could all be like Hitch and just make funny comments and never really show our true opinions.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Kora's utopia. If you disagree, you're in trouble!

[King Mark 3,631]

the thing is,some of us have grown up on traditional ,thematic orchestral scores. John Williams ,James Horner,John Barry,Jerry Goldsmith,Bruce Broughton....A new adventure /fantasy movie once mean a good chance of getting great music on c.d. The new RCP style music coming out now is a completely different genre and I for one cannot "learn" to like it . There is more chance of finding people opposed to that music on a John Williams board because John Williams is the opposite of that music.

I like film music for the music in itself ,NOT how well it functions in the film

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Shh... you're not in agreement with Kora's group-think.

[King Mark 3,631]

If I can make a pop music comparison

Comparing Hanz Zimmer/RCP to John Williams/Jerry Goldsmith is like comparing Britney Spears/Jennifer Lopez to The Beatles /The Rolling Stones

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Of course it's a nice place if everyone agrees. But life isn't interesting without a healthy balance of conflict and agreement.

Seconded. This place is downright placid compared to some boards I used to visit. Some people probably could be a little more respectful, but we have Joey to mock all that anyway. But I don't ever want to be a part of something that's just love, love, love. I love the TDK score, and I'm perfectly happy that most people don't. Doesn't bother me one bit but I'll enjoy arguing my point.

[Ollie 1,059]

Oh this place is very tame compared to some other sites.

Well I try not to make it personal, if you like Hanz Zimmer's music then by all means listen to it and talk about it but you had better expect people who don't like the music to express their criticism.

And KM makes a very good point, I listen to film music as I would any other type of music. If I want to re-live the film thru the music I'll watch the movie.

I want to enjoy the music as a seperate entity and I when I do that I could care less as to how it functions in the film.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

My god, some of you guys get so defensive on the subject of scores . . . it's like you can't even entertain the notion that someone might be able to get something out of the music that you yourself cannot.

Welcome to the wonderful world of JWFan.

Sometimes I wish this place was more like the HZ Forum, where there is absolutely no hostility, because everyone is in agreement and harmony. They all appreciate the music everyone here loves, and they love RCP. Everyone here cannot accept anything aside from their own extreme views, and I can even fall into that description. I went over there once, and there was a post: a guy saying he heard JW called HZ the greatest modern composer today. I replied saying HZ probably said JW is the greatest composer ever. He replied apologizing saying that his facts must have not been reliable. I was stunned that I didn't go into endless pages of arguments. I was trying to be a little pushy too. It's a pretty nice place down there.

because everyone there is a moron, and besides if everyone is in agreement what a boring place.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

My god, some of you guys get so defensive on the subject of scores . . . it's like you can't even entertain the notion that someone might be able to get something out of the music that you yourself cannot.

Welcome to the wonderful world of JWFan.

Sometimes I wish this place was more like the HZ Forum, where there is absolutely no hostility, because everyone is in agreement and harmony. They all appreciate the music everyone here loves, and they love RCP. Everyone here cannot accept anything aside from their own extreme views, and I can even fall into that description. I went over there once, and there was a post: a guy saying he heard JW called HZ the greatest modern composer today. I replied saying HZ probably said JW is the greatest composer ever. He replied apologizing saying that his facts must have not been reliable. I was stunned that I didn't go into endless pages of arguments. I was trying to be a little pushy too. It's a pretty nice place down there.

because everyone there is a moron, and besides if everyone is in agreement what a boring place.

There you go being extremely hostile again. Why are they morons? Because they like RCP?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You are catching on. but you have to admit the second part of my statement is right.