Where Do They Come From?

[Turbo 54]

I've been wondering this for a while. In looking out there (note: I am not asking where to find them, I am asking how they come to be) I have been wondering how the expanded scores and recording session scores come about. For example the 4 Disc score for Hook, the Recording Sessions for the Chronicles of Narnia: the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, or the expanded Mummy Returns score.

I do know that some scores can be pulled off of isolated scores on DVDs, but how about the rest? Does anybody know and can you give some specific examples?

Side note: I've also wondered what qualifies something to be titled a 'recording session' or if that just the title some people use to make it sound better.

[Datameister 2,097]

From my understanding, these just happen from time to time when you've got a lot of people involved in the process. Someone with the ability to make themselves a copy decides they want to do so, and it eventually gets leaked, intentionally or otherwise. I know next to nothing about the specifics, though.

One case I know more about specifically is Mark Mancina's score to The Haunted Mansion. Very little of it was officially released on CD, but according to what I've heard, members of the orchestra and so forth were given their own CDs with the complete score, and this material eventually got leaked. I have no idea whether or not that's the real story, but the sound quality is certainly impressive enough for it to be.

[Pieter Boelen 741]

The Chronicles of Narnia "recording sessions" is definitly misnamed. The tracknames are wrong, the track order is wrong and not everything is represented at all.

I think for Superman Returns, the composer actually sent out unreleased music to people who sent him an e-mail asking for it.

Until he was asked to stop with that, of course.

And I heard rumours that David Arnold also leaked unreleased music of his own (Independence Day, Godzilla promo)

because he was disappointed in the CD release or lack thereof or something like that. I have no idea how much truth there is to that though.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's when two film scores love each other very much.

[Williamsfan301 11]

It's when two film scores love each other very much.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

The Chronicles of Narnia "recording sessions" is definitly misnamed. The tracknames are wrong, the track order is wrong and not everything is represented at all.

I think for Superman Returns, the composer actually sent out unreleased music to people who sent him an e-mail asking for it.

Until he was asked to stop with that, of course.

And I heard rumours that David Arnold also leaked unreleased music of his own (Independence Day, Godzilla promo)

because he was disappointed in the CD release or lack thereof or something like that. I have no idea how much truth there is to that though.

Yeah, I heard that Arnold was annoyed at the producers of the Die Another Day OST for using all the techno stuff, and leaving off the proper orchestral material, and leaked a complete version himself. Several people here have remarked how much better a listening experience the boot is.

This is why I think the re-use fees problem is a complete joke, and a completely artificial way of stopping scores from being released. If a studio (and even many composers themselves) can afford to easily press promo copies of their scores, then the cost of mastering/manufacture really can't be insurmountably huge for modern scores that are stored digitally.

It seems it's just the reuse fees nowadays, but if orchestras make enough money from recording for a film (all these boots leak, and I don't hear session players struggling to make ends meet), and the fees are at such a level that it would be financial suicide for a label to try releasing something, well... something is broken in my view.

Now if just one person at Concord would realise Williams is an idiot, maybe we could get the rest of Indy...

[Datameister 2,097]

Also, I don't know how these things usually go, but I've certainly heard some "recording session" CDs that are quite obviously not.

[Pieter Boelen 741]

The bootlegs and composer promo's aren't exactly legal though, are they?

Of course the manufacturing costs of the actual CDs once the music is recorded is near to nothing.

The problem is the additional legal copyright costs. And for whatever reason, the copyright lies not with the composer who wrote the music.

And then there's a the reuse fees too. All this needs to be paid and sorted for an official release. Which is, of course, a situation that absolutely sucks.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

If you take the Kingdom of Heaven 3 disc boot, it has unused pieces, alternates, everything - in essence, everything HGW recorded for the film.

But I don't think that applies to most boots, the aim of which are to present a full account of everything used in the film as intended by the composer - like the LotR CRs. And I seriously doubt that anyone wants absolutely everything ever recorded for a film, just like many people will probably think the upcoming rarities are going over the top.

The bootlegs and composer promo's aren't exactly legal though, are they?

Of course the manufacturing costs of the actual CDs once the music is recorded is near to nothing.

The problem is the additional legal copyright costs. And for whatever reason, the copyright lies not with the composer who wrote the music.

And then there's a the reuse fees too. All this needs to be paid and sorted for an official release. Which is, of course, a situation that absolutely sucks.

The difference between legitimate and bootleg releases (or lack of) is something I feel needs to be highlighted. The physical cost of producing them has to be, as you said, next to nothing. It's just all the legal and reuse crap that applies to proper releases and sucks.

I seems rather convenient that studios don't pay a dime to promote the work for awards (promos are exempt from reuse fees apparently), yet as soon as the general public wants to hear it, it's waaayyy too expensive to do, because it isn't going to gain them anything.

I remember Varese mentioning in an interview that 1997 was a really busy year, and as such, loads of high profile scores were limited to 30 minute releases because they just couldn't afford to pay the reuse fees for any more music. If that was the sole reason for such pathetic releases, then that financial model is just not acceptable IMO.

[Pieter Boelen 741]

To me indeed that financial model IS not acceptable. As far as I'm concerned, consumers should have the right to legally buy the music they want to hear.

If I want to listen to the complete version of, say, "The Mummy Returns", why should I not be allowed to?

Actually owning (or even downloading) the complete promo would officially be illegal.

Personally I think that all the music written for all films should be available for an affordable price.

If that were the case, I would very much be tempted to actually pay for the music I want.

However, right now I mainly pay for the DVDs I want and download the music.

Why? Firstly, actually legally buying the music is really hard because most of it is either not available or not available for an affordable price.

Many CDs are out of print and even those that are in print are not readily available from shops or anything.

Also, many CDs don't offer the representation of the score that I want.

I want my scores chronological, not cut up, and as complete as possible.

There's way too few CD releases like that for scores that interest me.

On the other hand, there are a fair amount of (illegal) promo's available for ridiculous prices that DO offer that.

I'm actually hoping that stores like the iTunes store are going to change things soon though.

Although I'm not particularly interested in music for James Bond films, I was very pleased with what they did for the music of Casino Royale.

Now imagine something like that with all scores available in complete unedited and not messed-up form and you can buy those tracks that you want.

If there was such a possibility, I'd probably make use of it.

[Andy 4,283]

Good topic. I would love to know the origin of the Star Trek TMP recording sessions with the alternates for the Main Title, the Enterprise, and Spock's Arrival. Those were a revelation, and when I stumbled upon them, I felt like I had struck gold.

[publicist 4,643]

I remember Varese mentioning in an interview that 1997 was a really busy year, and as such, loads of high profile scores were limited to 30 minute releases because they just couldn't afford to pay the reuse fees for any more music. If that was the sole reason for such pathetic releases, then that financial model is just not acceptable IMO.

At a whopping price tag of 70 - 80,000$ for the release of scores like 'Air Force One' and 'Starship Troopers', who can blame them?

I always wondered if those massive Horner albums recorded in L. A. were part of a water-tight contract. There is no discernible reason why Sony Classical or Hollywood Records should sponsor 200,000 'Deep Impact' or 'Mighty Joe Young' album. Or Horner is obligated to buy half of the stock copies. Enough money he has...

[Williamsfan301 11]

And this is why the record industry is hurting. They using an outdated business model. We need a new record label, one with a more modern business model. The person that figures it out will be the next Motown.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

Yes, I have struck gold with several boots discovered recently. There really are very few scores at the moment which I am desperate for more music from (or any at all, in some cases obviously).

You know, years ago when I first found out about 'unreleased' music, I actually contacted a label and asked (obviously not in these words) whether additional music from a film (I don't remember which) could be purchased, and if not, whether it ever would be made available at all. Of course, I got the standard 'it isn't possible to buy additional music, sorry'. I now know that really means a bunch of legal crap prevents it.

Edit - damn... can't keep up with these replies lol.

publicist - those prices are indeed out of whack. $80,000 for pressing a score onto CD which was probably sitting on a computer somewhere for mastering the film? That's bullpoo, plain and simple. I'm guessing that Varese, Intrada etc, negotiate some sort of lower fees for their club releases, probably based on them setting a definitive limit on pressings (is that right?). It's good that they're trying to get past this problem at least.

It seems to me that a new model could reward everyone involved in making a score on a per sale basis. No upfront fees for preparing a score for sale, but paying royalties just like you pay any artist over time any time you make a sale - why does everything has to be in one lump sum that no on can afford in one go?

I don't like going on about this issue, but it's just one that I think is solvable (and would make a lot of money) if someone embraces modern technology and thinks outside the box a little.

[Trent B 337]

The bootlegs and composer promo's aren't exactly legal though, are they?

Ya they're kind of considered illegal, at least here in the United States.

Like stated before a lot of those who have worked on the score during the sessions someone might have made a copy of the score for themselves and leaked out the complete score. Or a lot of times a composer (IE: Don Davis) will leak the complete score themselves. Or sometimes they're made from DVD isolated scores plus original soundtrack albums. That was the old days though most of the time in this day in age the complete sessions are generally leaked.

I have no shame of owning a complete score if I have bought the original OST for it. Of course if the complete boot ever got a legit release (with nothing left off from the complete boot) I'd buy the legit release in a heart beat and get rid of the boot.

[Datameister 2,097]

I have no shame of owning a complete score if I have bought the original OST for it. Of course if the complete boot ever got a legit release (with nothing left off from the complete boot) I'd buy the legit release in a heart beat and get rid of the boot.

That pretty much sums up my stance on the matter, too. If I like the music, I am more than happy to pay for however much of it is legally and officially available. But if more of it is available through other venues, I have few qualms about supplementing the purchased material with the stuff they've decided not to let me purchase. That includes bootlegs, audio rips from DVDs I've paid for, etc.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

This Thread makes me want to purchase the Blue Box, for some reason. I wonder how many units are left....

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I have no shame of owning a complete score if I have bought the original OST for it. Of course if the complete boot ever got a legit release (with nothing left off from the complete boot) I'd buy the legit release in a heart beat and get rid of the boot.

I'm kinda like that as well. Same goes for all unreleased music and OOP scores. No ones making money if I buy those legally.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

Yeap, I gladly take all boots I can get hold of without guilt. No one wants to accept money for them? Not my problem. Especially if a composer leaks a boot themselves - they clearly don't mind too much about the lost income, and it will get them extra exposure.

The only reason I don't own many official complete scores (except Indy, LotR, ESB, etc) is simple: f*ck all is being released properly. I wait for all club announcements eagerly, knowing that eventually something from my period will be released, and I will buy it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I can't wait for the time when Intrada, FSM, and Varese will start releasing expanded and unreleased scores for people like Zimmer, Howard, etc.

[Ollie 1,069]

You may have a long wait for Zimmer.

LaLaLand and Varese would probably be the labels to do Zimmer when the time comes.

[Williamsfan301 11]

I can't wait for the time when Intrada, FSM, and Varese will start releasing expanded and unreleased scores for people like Zimmer, Howard, etc.

Yeah, but people have to want them first.

One man does not a market make.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

People wanting them? Dark Knight anyone? (ok it was mostly the public going nuts over that one, but Zimmer still has a knowledgeable audience)

I've heard we may be seeing some JNH this year. It's cool that all these golden age scores are seeing daylight, but heck, I like what the last 20 years has given us

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You may have a long wait for Zimmer.

LaLaLand and Varese would probably be the labels to do Zimmer when the time comes.

Most likely. I was pleasantly surprised when LaLaLand released Macina's Bad Boys. And Varese releases a good portion, probably at least 50% of RCP composers' scores.

[Williamsfan301 11]

People wanting them? Dark Knight anyone? (ok it was mostly the public going nuts over that one, but Zimmer still has a knowledgeable audience)

I know I know, people will want them. I'm just giving Koray some grief.

[Maxxie 1]

I can't believe that TDK has been released as an OST and an Expanded version so soon.

We want Pirates Mr Zimmer!!!!!!!!!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The special edition release was always planned. They had 4 releases in mind: the OST, the deluxe edition packaging, the LP release, and the 2CD special edition.

[Maxxie 1]

We want Pirates Mr Zimmer!!!!!!!!!

Actually what I should have said is, I want Pirates!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm quite content with what we have, but any complete/expanded release is welcome.

[Maxxie 1]

I'm quite content with what we have, but any complete/expanded release is welcome.

The first one's ok.

The second one needs the Cannibal Island Escape, the 3-Way Duel / Fight For The Key sequence, Davy Jones on the organ and the Kraken attack. Other than that, it's fine by me. A lot of unreleased stuff has leaked anyway.

Third one needs the Maelstrom and unreleased battle parts.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

The special edition release was always planned. They had 4 releases in mind: the OST, the deluxe edition packaging, the LP release, and the 2CD special edition.

If that's true, why wasn't it announced at the same time as the rest? Unless you're thinking of this:

Warner Bros. Records will release four different configurations of The Dark Knight soundtrack: a standard jewel case CD, a 2 LP set of heavy-weight 180 gram vinyl version, a special edition digipack, and a collector's edition with special artwork to come after release.

That's not the 2CD, that's surely the one that was released with the Batpod on the cover.

I want the LP, but it's ridiculous money.

[Datameister 2,097]

The second one needs the Cannibal Island Escape, the 3-Way Duel / Fight For The Key sequence, Davy Jones on the organ and the Kraken attack. Other than that, it's fine by me.

[bold mine]

Those cues are a lot more redundant than a lot of the other missing material.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

The special edition release was always planned. They had 4 releases in mind: the OST, the deluxe edition packaging, the LP release, and the 2CD special edition.

If that's true, why wasn't it announced at the same time as the rest? Unless you're thinking of this:

Warner Bros. Records will release four different configurations of The Dark Knight soundtrack: a standard jewel case CD, a 2 LP set of heavy-weight 180 gram vinyl version, a special edition digipack, and a collector's edition with special artwork to come after release.

That's not the 2CD, that's surely the one that was released with the Batpod on the cover.

I want the LP, but it's ridiculous money.

I don't understand why 'special artwork' or just different is touted as something worth paying for, if you're getting the same music. I think it's just milking the public for everything they can

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I think it's just milking the public for everything they can

That's Hollywood in a nutshell.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

I've heard bad things about that lot.

[Maxxie 1]

The second one needs the Cannibal Island Escape, the 3-Way Duel / Fight For The Key sequence, Davy Jones on the organ and the Kraken attack. Other than that, it's fine by me.

[bold mine]

Those cues are a lot more redundant than a lot of the other missing material.

Yeah, but those are the bits I'd like personally.

[Datameister 2,097]

The DVD rips of those cues are bearable...

[Maxxie 1]

The DVD rips of those cues are bearable...

Yeah I've heard worse. Kraken's not too good though.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

I think I saw an expanded DMC set with only a few tracks marked as having SFX, and I don't think those cues did.

Although for the record, I hate most of the first and second scores.

[artyjeffrey 20]

What about that Family Plot that popped up a couple of years ago? Where did that come from? I remember everyone speculating that it was a sort of teaser, that the official release would follow. But nothing did, which makes that particular leak interesting to me.

It's weird to me, like the ST:TMP bootleg: these things were recorded long before cds existed, so what format did they exist in before the bootlegger transferred them?

[Ollie 1,069]

Cassette tapes and LP's.

[Maxxie 1]

I think I saw an expanded DMC set with only a few tracks marked as having SFX, and I don't think those cues did.

Yeah I got that, but the Kraken Attrack track (what a mouthful!) was actually a (poorly) edited version of the suite.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The special edition release was always planned. They had 4 releases in mind: the OST, the deluxe edition packaging, the LP release, and the 2CD special edition.

If that's true, why wasn't it announced at the same time as the rest? Unless you're thinking of this:

Warner Bros. Records will release four different configurations of The Dark Knight soundtrack: a standard jewel case CD, a 2 LP set of heavy-weight 180 gram vinyl version, a special edition digipack, and a collector's edition with special artwork to come after release.

That's not the 2CD, that's surely the one that was released with the Batpod on the cover.

I want the LP, but it's ridiculous money.

The special edition digipack is the one with the batpod on the cover. That was released at the same time as the OST, which has the burning bat symbol on the building. The 2CD special edition is the only one released after the film's release, so that's what they must have been talking about. You know how vague press releases are, remember the whole Indy box set fiasco? I'm sure they meant special artwork as in the big book of pictures.

[Jay 37,548]

It's weird to me, like the ST:TMP bootleg: these things were recorded long before cds existed, so what format did they exist in before the bootlegger transferred them?

Well, I would think all the TMP music was taken out of the archives and transfered to a nice digital format in 1999 for the expanded CD release and again in 2001 for the director's edition of the movie.... but I think there was boots before either of those, now that I think about it.... not sure.

[Turbo 54]

Although this is a bit late, I found a post by somebody on SoundtrackCollector about Bootlegs, and I believe this answers my question. So here it is from one perspective.

Having worked in the film industry for a VERY long time, now retired & just enjoy the listening pleasures, I can give you some clues where boot legs come from.

The number 1 source used to be studio copies. LPs/Extended Singles & then CDs which were produced by the studio/composer for purely promotional purposes to either show case the muisc or the artist in general.

Then came those who has access to recording sessions & the tapes/film stems. In some cases the score session tapes were transfered to other countries, when dubbing or alterations were to be made to the final film & hence a 'leak' & the copy was made. Other time a disgruntles employee or just plain stupidity at the studio, lead to the tapes getting out onto the open market.

In the closing years of my time at the studios, there were 1 or 2 rumours of some composers so annoyed with a studio not letting their work be released in a legitimate market, that they themselves put out copies, almost as a spite. But I personally have never thought such stories were true. The integrity of a composer to protect their work & their reputation & just pure professional attitude leads me to think this is 1 of those 'film collector crazy rumours'!

Although Yared did put out a Troy promotional disc & I am quite certain he knew it would be 'copied' & it is often though it was done to spite the studio? true or false who knows, maybe he just wanted his music heard by someone & why not it's a wonderful score & deserves the proper attention of a legitimate release, my opinion of course & no I don't have a copy, I heard it at a friends house who has an original promo disc.

The era of Laser Dscs & DVD & isolated score tracks did bring in whole new chance to increase the number of boot legged scores. How many are done & to what extent, not sure if anyone really knows, but the medium has certainly added to the issue of boot legs & it has become quite noticable that some composers have been very vocal to NOT have their score isloted or if so will commnet over part all all of the music!

I have often thought that if studios were not so short sighted & artists not so greedy & lawyers not so involved there would be far more legal muisc out there & there would be less of these releases, good or bad.

But as such markets are often so small & contribute far less to the saleability of a movie it is often the last thing a studio can be bothered with & therefore the score get lost in the whole release process. These issues are often seen as so insignificant to a release & why bother to tie up funds & time for what is such a short lived medium now days, that the music, unless filled with the latest pop tune are just not bothered with.

However we look at it, it's just not commercial enough for a studio.

Therefore those with access or ability will step in and fill the void that is left over. Makes no difference if you agree with the whole ileagal issue or not, it will continue where there is a void someone will always fill it, by what ever means. That is the case with any market, not just sound tracks. Look at the commercial popular muisc market, there is a constant stream 'never released' cds coming out, the 'unreleased tracks' the 'from the vaults ' cds. Why? because it makes sense to make these thing available to reduce the ileagal copies that are on the open market.

Added to which as technology moves ahead as fast as it does, I'm more than certain that there will come a time that the home PC will be able to take a DVD or whatever format is on the market & break it down to it's individual componets & there you are ! 1 home made soundtrack!! It's just technology moving forward.

So in reality until the greed factor is taken out the sum, there will always be a boot leg market & the more movies are transported about the world to finish production, the easier it will becaome to access data/tapes/discs or film stems to copy it & get it into the open market.

I will agree with many of the points in this thread, sometimes a full score is warranted & some time the repetive nature is just boring! 1 of the reasons why when a legal copy comes onto the market I will often replace a 'copy' I have, why? because the skill of the muisc producer to remove to reptetive tracks from a score & construct an enjoyable listening experience for me exceeds the need to have a 'copy' with every single cue/beat that appears in the film.

May the likes of Intrada/Film Score Monthy/Verese Sarabande/La La Land Records & the other labels who work so hard for our enjoyment continue & may more studios open their doors & minds to reason & less greed.

But whatever you listen to enjoy the muisc as thats what this hobby/interest is really all about.

regards

Andy b

Originally from here.

[Ollie 1,069]

Pretty much everything that quote above says has been mentioned on quite a few othe film score message boards over the years.

[tharpdevenport 4]

Yared never intended for it to get as wide spread; he gave it to two or three reviewers in hopes people would know aobut his music, in combination with the clips that were on his site, but I guess you can never fully trust people.

I believe it was Isham who said in an interview he essentially let "Fly Away Home" leak because of the studio doing nothing after tons of requests.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

And didn't Arnold leak DAD when the studio only put out a CD of the techno stuff?

The whole unreleased issue just makes me keep repeating myself. Such a pity that this genre of music, which has some of the most interesting and amazing work, is treated with such little respect by those with the power.

But hey, the 10 year anniversary of HP:PS is in 2 years (woah)... maybe an expanded box? Failing that, perhaps with the release of the last movie.

[Dalton007 0]

Someone played unreleased InnerSpace music over the phone for me. The music guys in LA have everything on their HardDrives.

[Richard Penna 3,782]

I'm sure a lot of people have highly prized scores on their computers, but won't leak them for fear of retribution from the composer or studio.

If only studios would forget all this licensing and legal poo, and just start accepting money...