Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan by James Horner (FSM Expanded Edition)

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

Silvestri and Horner are the new Williams and Goldsmith.

[Maxxie 1]

Silvestri and Horner are the new Williams and Goldsmith.

You got any more jokes?

[Datameister 1,687]

The fun part is listening for this in later ones. I remember there being some direct lifts from Khan in Krull.

There's a brief passage near the end of the end credits that he also used near the end of "The Machine Age" from Bicentennial Man, one of my favorite Horner cues.

[Delorean90 34]

Yes, there are two things about this:

1. The repeated material is often much more interesting and/or fun when it's Horner doing the repeating.

2. Many a time, there is at least some kind of tweak that sets it apart even a little bit. Case in point: I listened to the "Rustling" sample of The Journey of Natty Gann, and thought, "Aw, geez, he took this music and put it in Honey, I Shrunk the Kids!" But then I listened to the "Into Town" and "Rustling" cues in full, and there are these things that he does that sets them apart from the following variations in Honey.

[John Crichton 4]

That's what always amazes me even more that, given Horner's track record, Star Trek III sounds as fresh as it does. Other than the identical end credits it's a great sequel score that takes and honors, not copies, the first score. Hopefully it's one of the next ones in FSM's pipeline.

[Richard Penna 2,633]

Because Zimmer's music is awful.

If someone would give me £1 for every time you've said that...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

It's a great sequel score indeed, with a few noteworthy missing cues. I hope it will be released.

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I'm not as big a fan of it as I am of KHAN, but there is some great stuff there, and some of the best of it is indeed unreleased. But, maybe because of the almost funerial (yeah, probably not a word) feel of much of the film, it certainly has its own identity. One of my favourite parts is the cue immediately after the titles end, with the shot of the Enterprise and Kirk's log. Such a beautifully melancholic feel.

[Datameister 1,687]

The repeated material is often much more interesting and/or fun when it's Horner doing the repeating.

I mildly disagree. I've heard some Horner self-plagiarism that was truly disgusting, and some Zimmer self-plagiarism that just sounded like a fun new take on something he already wrote.

[Koray Savas 2,218]

Because Zimmer's music is awful.

Yeah but that's besides the point. If Zimmer copies himself it's a bad thing, but when Horner does it (and much more frequently) it's good? Hypocrites!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

No.

But Horner is a better composer then Hans Zimmer, even with his limitations.

[Koray Savas 2,218]

Put your opinions aside. Maybe it doesn't happen so much anymore, but people used Zimmer's recycling as an insult and a way to make him seem like a hack/worse composer. Horner is no different, even if you happen to like his music more. So technically he's a shite composer cause he can't compose anything without weaving in classical music and his own from previous scores?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

Despite his sometimes obvious shortcomings, Horner is still technically and musically superiour to Zimmer.

At least he is clasically trained, not some Pop relic from the 80's!

[Charlie Brigden 5]

I don't think I've ever highlighted Zimmer's recycling (although I often do Horner's), but I still don't think he's a very good composer regardless of his methods. Whereas some of Horner's work is essential to me. But there's little similarity, really.

Maybe we should create a Zimmer appreciation/unappreciation thread so we can stop perfectly good threads being ridiculously sidetracked?

[Ollie 861]

Because Zimmer's music is awful.

If someone would give me £1 for every time you've said that...

You would be a friggin millionare, whoopdee do.

If I had dollar for every damn poll Josh started I could retire.

If I had a dollar every time someone has to mention Zimmer in a thread that has nothing to do with him.......

If I had a dollar every time someone dismissed a score composed before 1990...................

Put your opinions aside. Maybe it doesn't happen so much anymore, but people used Zimmer's recycling as an insult and a way to make him seem like a hack/worse composer. Horner is no different, even if you happen to like his music more. So technically he's a shite composer cause he can't compose anything without weaving in classical music and his own from previous scores?

Let me make it simple:

Zimmer bad composer

Horner good composer

Has nothing to do with repeating. It has to do with the quality of the music composed.

And I have crticized Horner for most of his work after 1991. I find it lazy and uninspired.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

I think he lost it after Titanic.

[John Crichton 4]

It's a great sequel score indeed, with a few noteworthy missing cues. I hope it will be released.

Until the other day I would have said that it has much better and more important unreleased cues than II. Now I'm not so sure.

[Marian Schedenig 6,470]

Wait... usually we're fighting over how much we can complain about Horner's ripoffs... and now we're fighting over how much we can praise them?

I think he lost it after Titanic.

I think he lost it with Titanic.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,065]

And I have crticized Horner for most of his work after 1991. I find it lazy and uninspired.

Zorro and I strongly disagree.

I have to say, the mixing in this version seems to have lost the resolution of the original release. It sounds more exciting, but the bass muddies it up a little too much for my liking. Sounds like hiss reduction + bass boost = bad combination.

Of course, my damn cold has also muffled my ears.

[Datameister 1,687]

Yeah, the bass still isn't quite right. A little muffled, and it sounds somehow...separate from the rest of the music. It's an improvement over the lack of bass on the OST, but I still wish TWOK could sound like TMP in terms of mix and sound quality.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,065]

Yeah the bass extends pretty low on the TMP remastered score...into the sub-bass range. So when an instrument does play in that range, you feel it...but otherwise it's unobtrusive.

It seems the bass mix on this TWOK mix is in the higher end of the bass freqs, so any thing that has frequencies in that range gets boosted as well, so everything gets a bass boost which sounds muffled.

[crocodile 7,064]

Wait... usually we're fighting over how much we can complain about Horner's ripoffs... and now we're fighting over how much we can praise them?

I think he lost it after Titanic.

I think he lost it with Titanic.

But, still, from 2005 onwards he gets better again. Not overwhelmingly so, of course. And it probably has more to do with the lack of quality elsewhere. But still.

Karol

[Koray Savas 2,218]

Maybe we should create a Zimmer appreciation/unappreciation thread so we can stop perfectly good threads being ridiculously sidetracked?

We've had one for some time.

[John Crichton 4]

Regarding the mix, I'm so glad that Khan's Pets and Spock are at normal levels now. On the original OST it sounded like their volume had been bumped up an insane amount to keep up with the louder, more bombastic cues. It was really annoying.

[Datameister 1,687]

Really? I never noticed that with the OST. Huh.

[Trent B 322]

Regarding the mix, I'm so glad that Khan's Pets and Spock are at normal levels now. On the original OST it sounded like their volume had been bumped up an insane amount to keep up with the louder, more bombastic cues. It was really annoying.

Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

[artyjeffrey 20]

I notice how that the timpani beats at about 2:30 into the main title are greatly reduced, almost inaudible compared to the original release. But I like that, as those beats always bothered me.

BTW, I noticed on page 2 of the booklet that they spell Khan's middle name Noonien. This seemed strange. In all of my Star Trek books, it's spelled Noonian. Checked it out online, and it looks like it's spelled both ways.

Don't know why I bothered mentioning that to you guys.

[Datameister 1,687]

I always thought it was Noonien.

[Jay 32,005]

I notice how that the timpani beats at about 2:30 into the main title are greatly reduced, almost inaudible compared to the original release. But I like that, as those beats always bothered me.

Hmmm, the timpani rumblings around 2:30 sound about the same, volume wise, to me in both versions

EDIT: That was my 4000th post, yikes

[Ollie 861]

There is clarity and seperation that is not heard on the original album. The opening of "The Enterprise Clears Moorings" is crisp and in your face.

[John Crichton 4]

Damn, Amazing Grace gets me all the time. Stupid emotions.....

It's the tragic quote of the Enterprise theme as Kirk's running to the engine room that's doing it for me.

[Datameister 1,687]

That's an excellent one, for sure. It really does a nice job of exuding futile hope and desperation and impending tragedy.

[Wojo 2,448]

Duh, yea, what he said, George.

[Ollie 861]

Oh, if anyone wants a good chuckle and has read their liner notes for TWOK, head over to FSM and read the Star Trek II thread.

Mr. Hobgood feels Goldsmith has been insulted in TWOK liner notes. Of course he felt the same way when the Superman Box was released.

Basically it boils down to someone even having the audacity to suggest another composer can write something as good as Goldsmith.

linky

[BLUMENKOHL 1,065]

There is clarity and seperation that is not heard on the original album. The opening of "The Enterprise Clears Moorings" is crisp and in your face.

No...there isn't. If anything the stereo separation and sound resolution has been greatly reduced, and the opening of that track is the perfect example.

[Ollie 861]

You must have gotten a bad copy because I can notice the difference immediately.

[Datameister 1,687]

Okay, I hate to be a whiner, but...I don't like the echo on Spock's voice in the epilogue. The OST had echo, too, but it was a natural-sounding echo that I really liked. The FSM release has a choppy-sounding reverb that distracts me from Nimoy's impeccable performance and Horner's gorgeous score. I don't remember if it was like this in the film, but this is one small respect in which I prefer the OST.

Also, would it have been too much to ask to include the epilogue without the voiceover as a bonus track? I know we got the Genesis-less alternate, but it'd be nice to have the film version with and without the voiceover. ::shrug:: Oh well. Maybe it's rippable from the DVD rear channels? Anyone know?

[Ollie 861]

Lukas and Neil answered the voiceover in the ST:II thread at FSM.

Since it was always on the original LP it didn't bother me. If they had left it off then they would have just as many complaints.

[Datameister 1,687]

Don't get me wrong, I love the voiceover - I wouldn't want it omitted altogether. I'm just saying it'd be fun if there were two versions on the FSM release - one with the voiceover (and proper echo), and one without.

[King Mark 3,220]

Some of us HATE ANY narration on film scores, even if it was meant to be there or it's by some iconic actor. To me any narration over orchestral underscore immediately ruins the track

They did the same thing with Clash of the Titans re-issue

I suppose somekind of edit can be made here to include the alternate portion without narration into the film version

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

I'm glad the narration was kept.

I'm so used to it.

[Datameister 1,687]

I'm so used to the better echo! Nah, like I said, I don't want to whine about this. It's amazing that they released this. But there's always somethin', you know?

[Ollie 861]

Don't get me wrong, I love the voiceover - I wouldn't want it omitted altogether. I'm just saying it'd be fun if there were two versions on the FSM release - one with the voiceover (and proper echo), and one without.

More than likely they would have needed to do a second disc, which would have bumped the price up about $10.00 for 7 minutes of music.

[Maxxie 1]

I'm glad the narration was kept.

I'm so used to it.

I too like the narration, a fitting way for the film to end.

But then again I haven't heard the 'new' version yet (only the original OST), so I might not like it.

[Ollie 861]

Well it's the same exact cue so I don't know how you could like it on the original but not like it on the expanded disc.

[Richard Penna 2,633]

Mine finally shipped!

I don't mind the narration. Same way as I'm ok with some sfx DVD rips if it enhances the atmosphere and isn't intrusive.

[Datameister 1,687]

More than likely they would have needed to do a second disc, which would have bumped the price up about $10.00 for 7 minutes of music.

Good point.

[Wojo 2,448]

I would have welcomed an original version sans the Nimoy narration, though not for $10. I will surely welcome this album regardless.

[Marian Schedenig 6,470]

Some of us HATE ANY narration on film scores, even if it was meant to be there or it's by some iconic actor. To me any narration over orchestral underscore immediately ruins the track

And they should get rid of all these choirs, too.

[Wojo 2,448]

I think drums are distracting, too. All drum noises should be removed.