Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan by James Horner (FSM Expanded Edition)

[Datameister 1,691]

The eyes are missing something, though...

Life?

I was thinking "a soul," but close enough!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

Souls?

I've taken so many, what are you talking about?

[Naïve Old Fart 7,996]

In all seriousness, I'm not one of the folks who'll consider you stupid or whatever simply because you've got a different opinion. But I do find TWOK to be a far better film than TSFS.

Certainly. "preferring" is fine, but no one in their right mind would say TSFS was a better film than TWOK. Unless they watched it like I did the other day when I fell asleep during the dull bits.

This is a fair point; I "prefer" TSFS to TWOK. I prefer the themes that it explores, I prefer the conclusion (you can't argue that the end of TWOK was not a downer), and I prefer the look of the film-TSFS's "blue", peaceful look compared to TWOK's "red" war-like look. It is such a shame that both films, even in their re,remastered form have lousy sound. DTS mastering may have helped, but I doubt it.

[Hitch 57]

I can see the resemblance

[Trent B 322]

I can see the resemblance

Scary thing is I can too.

[John Crichton 4]

So...what you're saying is behind all the bluster Steef is a just child-like midget that's testing us to see if we're peaceful?

[John Crichton 4]

I hadn't seen this mentioned: eariler this week Lukas posted a nice, comprehensive Q&A about the release, including a Bulk name dropping.

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/daily/article.cfm/articleID/6309/More-on-Star-Trek-II/

[Marian Schedenig 6,522]

We could have digitally retuned the bagpipes to match the orchestra but Paramount asked us not to apply such a revisionist approach.

I find this interesting, for two reasons: For one thing, I've always thought the most emotional bit in the entire score actually comes from the transition from the out of tune bagpipes to the orchestra (although I never thought about consciously - if you'd asked me before, I would probably have assumed the orchestra just played the theme a semitone higher). And also, I'm surprised that Paramount would actually, for whatever reason, care enough to object to it. I wouldn't want it changed anyway.

[Ollie 861]

So...what you're saying is behind all the bluster Steef is a just child-like midget that's testing us to see if we're peaceful?

Spock, this "child" is about to wipe out every living thing on Earth. Now, what do you suggest we do? Spank it?

[OneBuckFilms 201]

So...what you're saying is behind all the bluster Steef is a just child-like midget that's testing us to see if we're peaceful?

Spock, this "child" is about to wipe out every living thing on Earth. Now, what do you suggest we do? Spank it?

It know only that it needs, Doctor.

But, like so many of us, it does not know, What.

[John Crichton 4]

No, no, no, you guys are quoting the wrong movie! Episode! Whatever.

[Datameister 1,691]

Ignore him. You go right on quoting regulations.

[OneBuckFilms 201]

I guess we haven't been sufficiently ... entertaining.

[Hitch 57]

Can we get back to the topic in hand?

[Mr. Breathmask 484]

Damn Trek quotes!

[bruckhorn 100]

Now, if there was a thread that all of these Star Trek quotes could go to instead...

Finally got my copy. No magnet, though. I am contemplating sending back the order in toto because of it.

I did enjoy driving on Main Street on Saturday, blasting "Surprise Attack" and watching the reaction of the tourists.

[Wojo 2,450]

I got a magnet with a bunch of old actors on it, including one that looks like a much older Peter O'Toole.

[Kendal_Ozzel 33]

I was reading through Nicolas Meyer's memoir today, The View from the Bridge, and found this bit about Horner interesting:

"Later I discovered he had his own droll sense of humor. When I asked during a subsequent recording session if a certain passage he composed for the movie didn't smack of Prokofiev's

Alexander Nevsky

, he squeaked, 'Whatdya want from me? I'm a kid; I haven't outgrown mt influences.'"

He also mentions that Horner's accent comes from his going to school in England, where his father was a production designer.

[Jay 32,105]

This is coming out on 2xLP Vinyl on Wednesday, and this page says its been "Remastered by James Plotkin for this release"

 

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/01/08/mondo-presents-the-star-trek-ii-the-wrath-of-khan-score-on-vinyl

[publicist 4,636]

What about 'Cain's Hundred'?

[Jay 32,105]

11 years later Lukas Kendall adds some info about this!

 

Question 1:

 

Quote

When Star Trek II got its analog-to-digital conversion at Precision AudioSonics, does anyone know what the bit size and sampling rate (in kHz) was? It's a missing piece in my documentation.

 

I have the following Lukas quote from 2009 in my notes:

"We used mostly the analogue safety 3-track 1/2" because the digital 3M 1/2" 3-track tape nobody can play anymore! There was also a 1" 32-track 3M tape that only one place can play anymore (Walt Disney Imagineering; they keep a machine working) that we used for some cues (the 3-track film mixes are printed along with the multitrack channels) but it had to be baked and this caused some ticks (which we have to painstakingly edit out) and the analogue was actually the better source. (Did you know the 3M machine ran at a sampling rate of 50 khz, not 44.1 or even 48? So you have to go analogue out anyway!) Hope that answers the question. In all honesty...digital converters must be better now than in 1982, right? Thanks!

Lukas"

 

Question 2:

 

Quote

I was listening to TWOK an hour ago and realized it's the only score from the original crew films to have very few extras. One, in fact. Which, considering the CD runtime, makes sense. But surely there's more from this great score to uncover, especially from the 28-year-old James Horner.

Would it make sense for a label to revisit this title one last time, covering all material that could fit on two discs and upgrading the sound, which could no doubt be improved over 2009 and in high resolution (which probably didn't happen back then)?

 

LK's reply:

 

Quote

Hi Guys,

 

Bit size and sampling rate I tried to explain in those notes, I guess I didn't do it right.

 

First of all, we mostly used an analogue source, because the digital source was a very wonky, early 3M digital tape that was, I believe, the first digital multitrack format. When we started the project, we didn't have any ability to play it. So we used the analogue master mixes source.

 

Then I think we discovered we did need some things from the digital 3M source and it was a huge pain in the ass because the only machine left in the world that can play it is at Walt Disney Imagineering...who very graciously let us go over there and transfer it on a rental basis. But it was quite expensive.

 

And, to answer your question, I think it was 16 bit/50 kHz (neither 44.1 nor 48) which means you have to use its analogue outputs and resample at 48. So much fun.

 

Traveling Matt: there are few extras because there simply wasn't much else there to use. I think the only alternate we didn't use was another version of Amazing Grace where the bagpipe was in a different key (a semitone away), because bagpipes don't tune well and Horner was trying to find the best key where it would be most in tune with the orchestra. Paramount was concerned it didn't reflect well on the score, because just an alternate that was sort of out of tune, so we dropped it. I also think there were a couple of experiments with the "musical sound FX" that were added to the Battle at the Mutara Nebula (not in the original album) before the Reliant charges out of the cloud and attacks Enterprise.

 

So there's just not much else to make it worth doing a 2CD set, I think.

 

Maybe Neil Bulk will have something more accurate and interesting to add, as he did so much more work on it than I did, with Mike Matessino of course.

 

Incidentally, we later discovered that Horner wrote a very short (20-25 second cue) called "The Reliant," slated 2M1, I think for a Reliant flyby on its way to Ceti Alpha VI/V—but it was never recorded!

 

Lukas

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=142372&forumID=1&archive=0

[Jay 32,105]

Neil Bulk adds:

 

Quote

Our analog-to-digital transfers were done at 44.1/24. The 3M transfer done at Imagineering was 96/24.

 

Neil

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

Folks need to let up. The OST and the FSM are enough. How much more elusive detail do they expect to be squeezed from the sources?

[Jay 32,105]

I don't know what you mean.  The 1/2" analog tape they transferred for this released certainly more detail than the 16/44.1 transfer of that tape yielded.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

As if that would be perceivable.

[Tom Guernsey 1,762]

It doesn't sound bad, but compared to the rest of the Trek scores it's a bit disappointing. As one of my favourite scores (Horner's action writing was rarely better), I'd buy pretty much any new version, but maybe they've reached the theoretical maximum quality that can be extracted from what is available, in which case, fair enough, I'll thoroughly enjoy what we already have.

[Jay 32,105]

Well, the native recording was the 32 track 16bit/50hz on 1" 3M, but the primary source of the FSM CD was a 24/44.1 transfer of a 1/2" tape that stored mixes of selected takes.  

 

So it's possible it can sound better but yea, it won't be much since the native master is only 16/50.  Too bad they didn't run analog as well as digital like all of Williams's scores.

[Tom Guernsey 1,762]

10 minutes ago, Jay said:

Well, the native recording was the 32 track 16bit/50hz on 1" 3M, but the primary source of the FSM CD was a 24/44.1 transfer of a 1/2" tape that stored mixes of selected takes.  

 

So it's possible it can sound better but yea, it won't be much since the native master is only 16/50.  Too bad they didn't run analog as well as digital like all of Williams's scores.

Yes indeed... I seem to remember some random thread on FSM about the "worst sounding scores" where ST2 came up. Sure, it's not perfect, but there are definitely a whole lot worse. Funny really, when I bought the original album when I first starting collecting, I always thought it sounded amazing. I was always overwhelmed by the cascading string explosion after the tense buildup during the first minute or so of Battle in the Mutara Nebula; it remains a spine tingling moment.

[Jay 32,105]

It's great that they were already experimenting with digital recording, editing, and mastering in 1982 but they should have had the foresight to see that 16/50 was not a ceiling that would remain in the future and running analog wouldn't add THAT much more cost!  Oh well.

[Tom Guernsey 1,762]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

It's great that they were already experimenting with digital recording, editing, and mastering in 1982 but they should have had the foresight to see that 16/50 was not a ceiling that would remain in the future and running analog wouldn't add THAT much more cost!  Oh well.

Quite... but then ST2 had a budget of about 9 pence, so we're lucky to have got such a great orchestral score and the whole "let's use the Planets" thing died a death (mainly because it would have been expensive as, unlike  Disney and Stravinsky, they couldn't stiff the Holst estate for royalties).

[Jay 32,105]

Sure, but running analog INSTEAD of digital probably would have been even cheaper

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

48 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

 Funny really, when I bought the original album when I first starting collecting, I always thought it sounded amazing.

 

Probably because it does sound good!

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/175872

[Datameister 1,691]

Imagine thinking the measure of an album's sound quality is its dynamic range...

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the loudness wars are dumb, and some expanded releases do get a little more compression than I would prefer. But Christ, the TWOK OST sounds awful, no matter how glorious its dynamic range may be. It's a dull, muffled sound that obscures a fair amount of the detail in the writing. The FSM release was an enormous improvement. Unless further improvements by similar margins somehow become possible, I will be more than happy to go on considering it the definitive release of the score.

[Bellosh 1,953]

I always love 2:35-3:00 of 'The Eels of Ceti Alpha V / Kirk in Space Shuttle'

 

Tracks 2,3 and half of this track are very dark.  It's such a nice happy surprise when you get to it.

 

 

 

[Datameister 1,691]

Yessssssss. Honestly one of my favorite previously-unreleased moments from the score. It's such a great contrast.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

12 hours ago, Datameister said:

Imagine thinking the measure of an album's sound quality is its dynamic range...

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the loudness wars are dumb, and some expanded releases do get a little more compression than I would prefer. But Christ, the TWOK OST sounds awful, no matter how glorious its dynamic range may be. It's a dull, muffled sound that obscures a fair amount of the detail in the writing. The FSM release was an enormous improvement. Unless further improvements by similar margins somehow become possible, I will be more than happy to go on considering it the definitive release of the score.

 

I'm listening to the OST right now. Sounds really good! Lots of bite and attack, and a great deal of presence, despite its apparent dryness and a very thin shade of EQ, and I'm listening on a decent hi-fi. Those VU meters are swinging around like crazy during Surprise Attack. You're exaggerating by calling it "awful".

[Datameister 1,691]

I obviously need to try your hi-fi...

[bruce marshall 1,261]

22 hours ago, The Big Man said:

Folks need to let up. The OST and the FSM are enough. How much more elusive detail do they expect to be squeezed from the sources?

Why even bother to reason with them?😒

 

 

 

My newest meme- get used to it!

[Jay 32,105]

The wording in the FSM thread isn't exactly clear, but it sounds possible there was 2" analog tape recording everything on 24 tracks in addition to the 1" 32 track 3M digital

 

Question

 

Quote

what about the 24-track 2” analog backup mentioned in the liner notes (page 10) of the FSM edition? I guess that tape contains the unmixed channels and therefore it was excluded as a possible source due to Paramount's request not to remix the score (see this link: https://trekmovie.com/2009/07/28/review-of-wrath-of-khan-extended-soundtrack-producer-interview/)

However: was this analog multi-track recording performed in parallel to the digital one during the scoring sessions? Or was it just an analog copy made from the analog outputs of the 3M 32-track digital deck?

 

LK's answer

 

Quote

I am quite confident the 2" 24-track analogue was a parallel backup. And we did use it for one brief passage, where the 3-track mix was wonky.

Lukas

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

14 hours ago, The Big Man said:

 

I'm listening to the OST right now. Sounds really good! Lots of bite and attack, and a great deal of presence, despite its apparent dryness and a very thin shade of EQ, and I'm listening on a decent hi-fi. Those VU meters are swinging around like crazy during Surprise Attack. You're exaggerating by calling it "awful".

 

Those 80s Horner scores were nice and dry with great dynamic range. Really suited the Star Treks.

[Jay 32,105]

Neil Bulk:

 

Quote

sorry to contradict Lukas, but we did not utilize a 2" analog back up for Trek II. Page 12 of the booklet corroborates my memory. We had the 1/2" analog and 1" 3M digital. We got to go to Disney Imagineering and see them transfer the digital tapes. This was a very early project for me. I was scared out of my mind working on it and my memories of the entire time are quite vivid.

 

Question:

 

Quote

So you're saying that the 2" 24 track analog tape exists, but remains vaulted at Paramount, it did not get a digital transfer at all for the FSM project. Is that right?

 

Do we know if all 24 tracks are raw unmixed audio, or if they recorded the 3 track film mixes onto 3 of the tracks on it?

 

Neil's answer

 

Quote

I have no recollection of a 2" tape, but as it's Dan Wallin at RecordPlant, it's safe to say that if there is a 2" set it will not have mixes.

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Why was Disney Imagineering involved?

[Jay 32,105]

On 12/8/2020 at 11:39 AM, Jay said:

we mostly used an analogue source, because the digital source was a very wonky, early 3M digital tape that was, I believe, the first digital multitrack format. When we started the project, we didn't have any ability to play it. So we used the analogue master mixes source.

 

Then I think we discovered we did need some things from the digital 3M source and it was a huge pain in the ass because the only machine left in the world that can play it is at Walt Disney Imagineering...who very graciously let us go over there and transfer it on a rental basis. But it was quite expensive.

 

That's why

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Walt Disney Presents Star Trek II

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

Disney hoards all the antique playback devices.