Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's (Philosopher's) Stone

[GoodMusician 56]

I was posting a link to a video... not a link to a file or am i missing something?

I layered them because that's what they were intended to be..

[Jacck 23]

I layered them because that's what they were intended to be..

I don't think they were.

[GoodMusician 56]

Well, seeing as one ends at the end of one scene, and one begins on the next...and there's no evidence there was anything in between, there will be some overlap naturally... and seeing as they work perfectly well overlapped as long as you dont' utilize the optional bullet, then it works.

[Jay 37,364]

I think as datameister said, its impossible to know exactly what was intended without seeing William's original sketches. The best solution is to just do what SOUNDS the best on CD, I think.

Personally, I think they sound the best unconnected

[Datameister 2,043]

Well, seeing as one ends at the end of one scene, and one begins on the next...and there's no evidence there was anything in between, there will be some overlap naturally... and seeing as they work perfectly well overlapped as long as you dont' utilize the optional bullet, then it works.

Exactly. It's not possible for them to NOT segue into each other - "Mail Delivery" ends when when we cut to the shot of the hut on the beach, and "The Beach and The Arrival of Hagrid" clearly starts with that shot. The two pieces are in the same key and have similar enough tempi to flow together as a single piece of music. The only question is how exactly the timing was supposed to work, since the final cut of the film is edited slightly differently.

I'm not sure why you keep referring to removing the optional pizzicato note, though. Maybe if I heard your edit I would understand...if you take my meaning...

[Jacck 23]

We do have the sketches, and that's what I'm looking at partially to make my assumptions. I'm simply talking in terms of a good listening experience for this as a standalone thing. For me, there's no point in editing those two together because they don't need it, and doesn't feel right to me. How close the two cues come together in the film is sort of irrelevant.

[GoodMusician 56]

I keep trying to upload my edit lol... but youtube pulls the audio and forum rules mean i can't post it anywhere where it's easy to download so photbucket is out lol

EDIT:

Yahoo FTW

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/8373361/22406564

sorry that it killed some of the quality (blah

Utilizing the Pizz makes it had to layer because the pizz isn't in time. It's placed which means that if you try to layer something that is meant to be somewhat in time still you get conflicts so thats why you gotta remove it.

[Datameister 2,043]

We do have the sketches, and that's what I'm looking at partially to make my assumptions.

We have the orchestrators' manuscripts, but not Williams' original sketches. (Unless there's been a leak I don't know about, in which case we should definitely have a private conversation about this!) The sketches are 8-staff condensed scores in Williams' own messy handwriting, rather than the neater full scores that the orchestrators produce from these sketches.

I'm simply talking in terms of a good listening experience for this as a standalone thing. For me, there's no point in editing those two together because they don't need it, and doesn't feel right to me. How close the two cues come together in the film is sort of irrelevant.

And if what you're going for is a standalone listening experience, then that makes perfect sense. But how close they come together in the film is VERY relevant if what you're going for is the score as Williams originally intended it, which is how I currently try to do my edits. Different strokes for different folks, but if you want to do it as Williams intended, there's no doubt that some sort of segue was intended.

Thanks for sharing your edit, GoodMusician - that works, too, although I'm not sure I'm sold musically. The problem is that even though "Mail Delivery" is technically in 3/8, it has a 6/8 feel to me. The phrases all use even numbers of 3/8 bars, and then the start of "The Beach and The Arrival of Hagrid" is in 6/8 anyhow. But the way you've edited it, you're left with a single 3/8 bar at the end of "Mail Delivery", which feels kinda weird to me. The two options I presented have the advantage of maintaining that 6/8 feel. They also don't necessitate removal of the last note, which I'm guessing was marked optional for musical reasons, not because of the segue.

But again, we may never know. The scene was longer when Williams scored it; if you line up the start of the family theme with where it starts in the film, "The Beach and The Arrival of Hagrid" starts in some random place near the end of "Mail Delivery." And THAT is definitely not musical.

[GoodMusician 56]

I don't think you can quite edit it based on measures but its a good thought. What i've noticed the most with HP was all the CG establishing shots were planned longer than how they are in the film. Looking at Williams music you can tell they were fractionally longer in almost every case and when it got cut, Williams music would be cut or shrunken.

I've also noticed the first horn note is too long which, since they were recorded separately would be very easy to happen having to sense of how long it needed to be. I mean, look at "Diagon Alley" and how many times it took to get the right inflection and tempo in that center section because it was all recorded separately.

[Datameister 2,043]

I don't think you can quite edit it based on measures but its a good thought.

Williams always explicitly plans out segues between cues so that they line up in a way that he finds musically pleasing. His sketches explain exactly how cues will overlap with each other to maintain a sort of flow as a single piece of music. It's not totally inconceivable that he would do it your way, but I think the two options I mentioned are more musically sound, and thus more likely for him to choose - he always figures out which measure is supposed to line up with which measure and so forth.

I've also noticed the first horn note is too long which, since they were recorded separately would be very easy to happen having to sense of how long it needed to be. I mean, look at "Diagon Alley" and how many times it took to get the right inflection and tempo in that center section because it was all recorded separately.

Definitely. If you do the first option I mentioned, it's crucial to shorten that first horn note, or it just sounds weird.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

just for the record, the complete score + childrens suite, alternates and coca cola ad fit nicely in two cds (80 and 75 min).

(no inserts-takes included.)

[GoodMusician 56]

I don't mean to change the subject but one of the things i realized while working on my own edit was that the COS extension for the "Harry's Wondrous World" seems to have had a faked ending. If you listen carefully, it's definately a synthetic ending based on the SS credits recording... but why I ask myself? well... i can't help but think maybe the complete version of this cue was meant to have the full SS but with just the insert from COS...

I made my own edit to demonstrate that;

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/8373409/22406936

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i dont understand.

the track in cos is the SS recording with an added Ross conducted coda or a COS recording with an unreleased SS Williams conducted coda?

[Datameister 2,043]

Ah, so you were the one that had that theory, GoodmMusician! Sorry to keep shooting you down like this, but I disagree. Obviously, the final bars of the COS track "Harry's Wondrous World" were edited in; most of that track is just the exact same take of "End Credits Part 1" from SS. Whether the ending was recorded for COS or SS is unknown, but it was certainly written for SS as part of the unreleased Children's Suite cue "Harry's Wondrous World." My guess is that the ending we hear is just the end of the recording of that cue for SS. But where things get interesting is that final note, which you think is taken from "End Credits Part 1." Here's what I wrote to Jay about the issue:

There's a distinct difference in the way the two recordings sound, and that ending [note] continues with the same sound quality that the rest of the ending has. I definitely don't hear the woodwinds trailing off afterward, and more importantly, there's no hint of the big ascending run that leads INTO the final bang in the "End Credits" recording. Instead, it has a very clean, natural-sounding attack, and although artificial reverb is pretty easy to work with, getting rid of existing reverb can be very nearly impossible. As far as I'm concerned, what we're hearing is the actual recorded ending of this "Harry's Wondrous World" recording.

The edit you posted makes perfect musical sense, but it doesn't demonstrate that the last note was taken from "End Credits Part 1." To do that, you'll need to reproduce the end of the COS track yourself by using that note from "End Credits Part 1", and I think you'll find it's impossible to do that convincingly.

[GoodMusician 56]

Oh i did... I just didn't make a video of it. If you listen to the recording on the album of COS, what you'll hear is the 'Bang" and then a low boom just after it that sounds like a bass/cello line as if they finished late. When lined up with the part after the bang in the SS, you hear that on that exact beat is when the winds come in and continue. I'm thinking they for some reason used the SS recording... but maybe isolated the strings for the final "bang"

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i still dont understand...

with so much music reused and re-recorded from SS, why wouldnt they re-record ittoo?

[King Mark 3,631]

CoS is shrouded in mystery

[GoodMusician 56]

I dunno... that's what's so confusing.

They ONLY recorded the insert starting with a low harp glissando and then strings, finishing with the full orchestra but not the final note. I say that cause I'm not even convinced they recorded the final "bang" of the HWW because it sounds like they sourced it from SS as well, just simply isolating the strings to get a cleaner ending and making a fake fade out. I have NO idea why... but they did... you hear the low strings keep playing which is the next part of the SS credits... no idea why... it's confusing...

I mean, if you listen to the album and listen after the bang, you'll hear the low strings. Then listen to the edit i made and it's totally in time with the omitted ending to the SS credits... so I really dont' think they recorded it.

The only thing I could think was maybe it had only intended to be an insert, and after it was recorded they said "wait... why not just chop off the rest and make it end big like that?" and that became the way it's been recorded/performed ever since...

The other option, they never got a good clean ending and decided to use the williams take and fake it...

EDIT: I should also state that the predominance of the recording is taken from the SS End Credits. I layered the two and they make digital noise when layered exactly over eachother meaning its the same recording up until the harp gliss

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

So End credits PArt I is also the ending of the Children's suite, as it was composed in 2001, or Williams always had intended the COS ending?

[GoodMusician 56]

I guess that's the big question... I can't help but wonder if it was intended to be how it was in 2001 (with the slight addition of the COS insert)... but i don't know... it works perfectly as can be heard in my edit/video... but again, i dunno. I'm just bringing to light somethings i noticed :-p

[Richard Penna 3,689]

I'm completely lost on the HWW ending thing, and to be frank I don't really care... I've never liked how the CoS version ends.

[Datameister 2,043]

Sorry, GoodMusician, but it's just not possible. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the low strings - all I hear is them playing a little longer than the rest of the orchestra, which is exactly what lower instruments are supposed to do at big cutoffs like that. It maintains a more balanced sound.

Again, the kicker is that it's impossible to get a clean start to that final note if you're taking it from "End Credits Part 1." The strings and woodwinds do a big ascending run into that note; there's never a clean attack. The final note of the COS track has a very clean attack - it clearly doesn't just quickly fade in. There's no way to fake that from the available material in "End Credits Part 1." I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you if you think it's possible to do that.

Furthermore, there's that major difference in sound quality between the two recordings. That whole ending is brighter than the rest of the track - including the final note. You could argue that they EQ'd the final note so it would match the rest of the ending...but if they cared about the sound quality, why not just EQ the whole ending so that it matched the majority of the track?

And of course, the sheet music for "Harry's Wondrous World" (as opposed to "End Credits Part 1") does not have the quiet ending. It concludes with that final blast, exactly as heard in the COS track.

EDIT: Just to recap, here's what we DO know about the music Williams wrote for SS. There are two cues, "End Credits Part 1" and "Harry's Wondrous World." The former was written for the credits, the latter was written for the Children's Suite. They are musically identical except for the ending. "End Credits Part 1" was included on the SS OST under the technically incorrect track title "Harry's Wondrous World." All they did was one microedit in the middle; the longer, quieter ending is exactly how Williams wrote it. Then there was the Children's Suite cue "Harry's Wondrous World", which we DO NOT have. This cue was written with the shorter, louder ending exactly as heard on the COS track.

Just to sum it up again:

The cue "End Credits Part 1" has the longer, quieter ending and was released on the SS OST as "Harry's Wondrous World."

The cue "Harry's Wondrous World" has the shorter, louder ending and was released on the COS OST. But it's an edit, most of which was taken from "End Credits Part 1."

[GoodMusician 56]

LoL

It's kinda confusing.

You have "[unnumbered] End Credits Pt I" from Sorcerer's stone and the COS extension

This is how you edit them

1) "[unnumbered] End Credits Pt I" [00:00]-[04:43]

Here you insert the COS extension

2) "COS Extension" which lasts [4:43]-[04:56]

Then fade out

Now, the point where the COS extension is inserted is right on this large "BANG" of the orchestra, which then goes silent and the low strings play a grounded bass line with the winds playing their four notes "da-dee dah dah, da-dee dah dah, da-dee dah dah," and so on and so fourth as it gets quiter, handing off from one instrument to the other until the final harp comes in.

The problem is, the COS extension omits everything after the "Bang" but if you listen carefully to the recording, it's obvious that they, for some unknown reason, didn't record that final "BANG" because if you listen carefully, you can hear the remnants of the next part...

What does it mean? I don't know... I'm theorizing that the COS extension, which is now always used as an alternate ending, was Really meant as an Insert into the already established version but that they decided for some reason to just omit original ending in leu of this new, bigger one.

EDIT:

Then let me be more specific: I think that they may have recorded the note... but for some reason, the "fade out" is faked... they aren't playing longer, they clearly play another note or are realy late lol...

As i said, i think they may have taken the isolated strings from the mix and used that to fake the ending...for some reason... i can't imagine why... but for some reason.

[Datameister 2,043]

Do not listen to this madman! There's no faked fadeout. You're hearing the cellos and basses reverberating a little longer than the other instruments and jumping to an assumption that just isn't possible. The evidence (the impossibility of creating a clean attack, differing sound quality between the two recordings, and the fact that it just doesn't make sense) against this assumption is overwhelming. And I wouldn't be driving this point home so hard except that this thing is already so confusing, and I don't want other people to get even more confused.

That being said, I love debates like this!

GoodMusician, if you can take that big false ending from "End Credits Part 1" and give it a convincingly clean attack for us to hear, I'll be a lot more convinced, but I firmly believe that it's impossible. It doesn't matter whether the strings are isolated or not - they're playing the big ascending run, too.

[GoodMusician 56]

granted, change in quality is a good point... but if they're using a synth to reverb it, it's gonna sound different anyway... the only reason i can come to that they'd use the synth reverb was to replace something that they recorded with this ending...again, the question begs why...

I don't think it sounds natural to me... the fade out... it sounds very faked... but thats me :-D

[Datameister 2,043]

Again, if it's possible to create a clean attack from the note in "End Credits Part 1", even with that big ascending run right before it, I want to hear it! But until I hear that, I cannot help but assume the type of edit you're describing is completely impossible. I've tried it, and it just sounds like exactly what it is - a weird artificial fade-in where there's not supposed to be one.

[Jay 37,364]

A lot of what you guys are saying is over my head, but I absolutely love that there's a place where this discussion can be had and I can read it

[Datameister 2,043]

Yeah, it's very difficult to explain in a way that immediately makes sense. It would be a lot easier if we were all physically in the same room, sitting around a computer with Audacity on it. The issue isn't that difficult to understand, it's just difficult to communicate via written word.

[GoodMusician 56]

agreeed lol...

I've had limited ability to make something similar, but if we had a studio with real studio equipment, i know it's possible. They do it all the time through Williams film edits. I don't think it's impossible but that's me...

Now yes, if you tried to make a fade out that was convincing with simply the bang, no, you couldn't...BUT.. if you allowed for another moment or so of sound, to capture some of the natural reverb, you could do it... the problem is in doing so, you'd also be including some of the low strings which...it...conveniently does lol... which is why i think it's possible lol I do fade outs all the time through my edits...trying to create endings that arn't released heh... it can be hard, but it can be done...

[Demondm810 399]

A lot of what you guys are saying is over my head, but I absolutely love that there's a place where this discussion can be had and I can read it

haha I feel the same way.

I absolutely LOVE "Filch's Fond Remembrances" The Azkaban style is so prevalent in that cue!!! I wonder if Williams enjoyed writing in that style and wanted to expand it further..

[King Mark 3,631]

Double Trouble is clearly derived from Entry into the Great Hall

[Demondm810 399]

Yes.

[Datameister 2,043]

I've had limited ability to make something similar, but if we had a studio with real studio equipment, i know it's possible. They do it all the time through Williams film edits. I don't think it's impossible but that's me...

Now yes, if you tried to make a fade out that was convincing with simply the bang, no, you couldn't...BUT.. if you allowed for another moment or so of sound, to capture some of the natural reverb, you could do it... the problem is in doing so, you'd also be including some of the low strings which...it...conveniently does lol... which is why i think it's possible lol I do fade outs all the time through my edits...trying to create endings that arn't released heh... it can be hard, but it can be done...

I think we've got a miscommunication here - it's not the fade out that I'm concerned with at all. That's easy. I do that all the time - use Audacity's envelope tool to taper off the sound at the right moment, and then use some artificial reverb to make it sound more natural. The results may not sound perfect, but they're perfectly listenable. Again, my concern is with the fade in. If you use that note from "End Credits Part 1", you have to fade in really quickly to simulate the start of that note. The problem is that there isn't silence right before that note - there's a big ascending rush of sound right before, played by lots of instruments. You have to chop off all of that stuff, and the results sound unnatural, no matter how fancy your equipment is.

Here's my best attempt. It's not the most atrocious thing ever, but notice how the attack of that last note sounds like you've sorta...missed something. The human ear - especially the trained human ear - can really pick out very, very subtle differences in the way the intensity and timbre and pitch change from millisecond to millisecond, and if those don't match up with the pattern they're familiar with, it doesn't sound right.

Because this is such a short snippet of music, and one most of us have already purchased anyway, I trust it won't do any harm to post it publicly:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YKVHVFME

And I did EQ the final note to make it match better, by the way. Without the EQing, it just sounds totally unlistenable. Compare this to the ending we actually got, and it should be clear that the last note of the COS version really is just that - the last note of the COS version, exactly as they recorded it. (Whether it was recorded for COS or SS we may never know. )

EDIT: I concur about POA - that medieval style definitely started in SS, and it worked similarly brilliantly in that film. It just had a much smaller role to play in the SS score.

[King Mark 3,631]

The Wizard's Pub reminds me of TPM source cues (Desert Wind...)

[TownerFan 4,983]

Sorry if I'm asking something already said, but which are the correct track titles? The ones found on Page 1 of this thread, or the ones labeled on the Recording Session takes?

[Datameister 2,043]

The ones on the first page of the thread.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Thanks Data

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Double Trouble is clearly derived from Entry into the Great Hall

Or Nimbus 2000 (which itself is derivative of Hedwig's Theme).

[GoodMusician 56]

Well, maybe the fade in is original... maybe the COS extension recorded the full ending (with that extra part) and then they realized they wanted it to end big and so they omitted the rest?

[Datameister 2,043]

Well, we have to be careful when we're talking about theme names, guys. "Hedwig's Theme" the concert suite explores two different major melodic ideas - the mysterious waltz most commonly referred to as Hedwig's theme, and the so-called Nimbus 2000 theme that's based on staccato minor chords. And then each of these can be divided up, too: Hedwig's theme has an A section (heard at the very beginning) and a B section (often played, for instance, loudly by the horns); the Nimbus 2000 theme has a sort of B theme that's lyrical and flowing but still in a minor key.

The thing is, none of these "themes" are very leitmotivic at all. Williams uses them throughout the score whenever they create the right mood, not when certain characters or ideas or settings come into play. So it's hard to name them, especially since they're all included in a suite that's simply called "Hedwig's Theme."

EDIT: But that's not what the sheet music calls for, GoodMusician. In the sheet music, that big blast is the end of "Harry's Wondrous World." I think you're reading too much into a barely perceptible reverberation in the low strings. The quiet ending is what Williams wrote for the credits so that it'd flow more easily into whatever came next; the loud ending is what he wrote to conclude the standalone Children's Suite. That simple, I think. The only part that's still a mystery is where the recording of the end came from, and why they didn't just use that whole recording instead of tacking it onto the end of "End Credits Part 1."

[GoodMusician 56]

If you listen carefully to the credits to COS, they obviously do a pitch shift for the section, but it's clear they only recorded from that harp gliss on. I wanted to utilize this to isolate the COS extension by itself (its almsot possible in the credits) but even with blu ray, the pitch shifting back down was iffy sounding

[Datameister 2,043]

I don't have the COS DVD, so I'm afraid I can't comment on that.

[King Mark 3,631]

What's Hermione's Reading?...sounds like re-hash of a part of Arrival of Baby Harry. And is seems used in CoS (Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle)

[Datameister 2,043]

Well, it contains a reprise of some melodic material from "The Prologue", sure. Wouldn't really call it a re-hash. I want to say that part scores a scene in which the kids are running to Hagrid's hut at night, but I could be wrong. And the first part of the cue indeed is for when Hermione is reading about the sorcerer's stone.

[Henry B 50]

But that's not what the sheet music calls for, GoodMusician. In the sheet music, that big blast is the end of "Harry's Wondrous World." I think you're reading too much into a barely perceptible reverberation in the low strings. The quiet ending is what Williams wrote for the credits so that it'd flow more easily into whatever came next; the loud ending is what he wrote to conclude the standalone Children's Suite. That simple, I think. The only part that's still a mystery is where the recording of the end came from, and why they didn't just use that whole recording instead of tacking it onto the end of "End Credits Part 1."

Yes, this. Why is there still a debate?

[King Mark 3,631]

I haven't seen the movie in a long time

I moved the Christmas Spell song at the end of the track list..it kind of sucks

[Demondm810 399]

Haha. I did too. I placed the music box track in it's place. The actual song is now among the alternates and pub source cues.

[King Mark 3,631]

This score just seems like a box of goodies that never ends!

I mean The Blue Forest..how great is that..

This really is a masterpiece

[Demondm810 399]

I actually watched the film last night. Hadn't seen it in quite a while. Definitely has a new level of appreciation. I liked it more than I remembered I did. It was fun to see all the actors as little kids again.

[scallenger 483]

I think the first film is still one of the best in the series. It's very faithful to the book, it's fun, has a very whimsical range on the story, and yet, is able to go to darker places. Sure not as dark as the later films, but it doesn't need to be. And it's the only Potter film that can be watched stand-alone. Hell, if they had never even done the sequels it still has a pretty well wrapped-up ending. It's a classic fairytale kind of story, and Williams score reflects this very well. I think this film gets under-appreciated by a lot of people, and all the Columbus hate is really all for nothing imo. He made them exactly how people wanted to see them, and it drew people in, like myself, who had never even read the books. That's the sign of a great film.