Episode II vs. Episode III

[Josh500 1,616]

Episode II is bizarre, to say the least. Some of the music is among Williams' subtlest, or perhaps dullest (it depends on my mood). There are some classic "Star Wars" cues, of course. But the unreleased music is ridiculously campy! All those fanfares. Now, sometimes I like campy, and maybe I like this, but... I don't know, it's weird.

Episode III is more consistent in tone, except when it carelessly recycles old music. Not too intellectual or too campy.

Well, I don't think the music is "bizarre." Honestly, I don't really know what you mean by that.

As to "campy"... when you're talking about the music, I beg to differ. The music is the best part about this movie, probably, and if you had heard the music all by itself (without ever seeing the movie), "campy" wouldn't even enter your mind, I bet. But yeah, the movie itself, with its corny dialogue and love scenes and somehow artificial special effects... that's a different matter.

[Henry B 51]

When I said the music is campy, I meant that the music is campy. Not the film. Though the film is too. Also, I don't think "campy" is a synonym for "bad." It's just... what it is.

[crocodile 8,374]

The first kiss scene near the lake is definitely campy as scored.

Karol

[Josh500 1,616]

The first kiss scene near the lake is definitely campy as scored.

Karol

Hmmmm, yes, maybe.

But wasn't that JW's intention? He probably told himself, A campy scene requires a campy cue.

[John Crichton 4]

As much as I love AotC, RotS does have more orchestral richness and pure "oh, wow" moments.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

It's like comparing the McDonalds hamburger to the Burger King Hamburger.

Both get the job done with minimal effort, but that's about it.

Are you even kidding? Burger King by a mile

[Wojo 2,456]

McDonald's cheeseburgers are so good they're like candy for fat people.

[Jay 38,934]

You're both nuts, Wendy's cheeseburgers trump McD's and BK any day

Wendy's has the worst fries, though. McD's has the best

[Demondm810 399]

In-n-Out.

But back to the topic. i think what I especially like about Episode II is the not obviously Star Wars music. The more mysterious cues, much from Kamino, etc. I absolutely LOVE the music that plays when Palpatine gives his "greatest of all jedi" speech, in addition to the music that follows Anakin murdering the Tusken Raiders. Unbelievably good stuff. I will make special note, the "I am The Senate" cue from Ep. III is unreal. I never grow tired of it.

[John Crichton 4]

You're both nuts, Wendy's cheeseburgers trump McD's and BK any day

Wendy's has the worst fries, though. McD's has the best

I pity people that don't live in Whataburger country.

[Romão 2,313]

In-n-Out.

But back to the topic. i think what I especially like about Episode II is the not obviously Star Wars music. The more mysterious cues, much from Kamino, etc. I absolutely LOVE the music that plays when Palpatine gives his "greatest of all jedi" speech, in addition to the music that follows Anakin murdering the Tusken Raiders. Unbelievably good stuff. I will make special note, the "I am The Senate" cue from Ep. III is unreal. I never grow tired of it.

Let me add that Attack of the Clones features some stunning Horn phrases. For example, on the track Main Title and Ambush on Coruscant, at the 1.38 mark, there is a stunning horn Phrase (in the movie, it accompanies that whale thing coming out of the water in Kamino), or the counter melody in Across the Stars (at the 1.30 mark). Really stunning passages in my book, I don't think I've ever heard better sounding horns.

[Jacob 0]

You're both nuts, Wendy's cheeseburgers trump McD's and BK any day

Wendy's has the worst fries, though. McD's has the best

I got food poisoning the one and only time I had a Wendy's burger.

[indy4 155]

In-n-Out.

But back to the topic. i think what I especially like about Episode II is the not obviously Star Wars music. The more mysterious cues, much from Kamino, etc. I absolutely LOVE the music that plays when Palpatine gives his "greatest of all jedi" speech, in addition to the music that follows Anakin murdering the Tusken Raiders. Unbelievably good stuff. I will make special note, the "I am The Senate" cue from Ep. III is unreal. I never grow tired of it.

Let me add that Attack of the Clones features some stunning Horn phrases. For example, on the track Main Title and Ambush on Coruscant, at the 1.38 mark, there is a stunning horn Phrase (in the movie, it accompanies that whale thing coming out of the water in Kamino), or the counter melody in Across the Stars (at the 1.30 mark). Really stunning passages in my book, I don't think I've ever heard better sounding horns.

Very true. Also the horn flourish near the end of "On the Conveyor Belt."

[Datameister 2,233]

Yeah, there's some very good horn writing in AOTC - though I'd hardly say that's unusual in Williams' oeuvre.

[Trent B 340]

I will agree that the underscore for AOTC is pretty interesting, the unreleased score does help it in my opinion but it's still not as good as good at ROTS.

[John Crichton 4]

I still say there's a lot of unreleased goodies waiting to be properly discovered in AotC when we get a proper complete score release.

[Datameister 2,233]

And same goes for ROTS, of course. Both scores contain a lot of fantastic music that didn't make it to the album.

[Ollie 1,108]

I prefer The Phantom Menace.

[Datameister 2,233]

An understandable choice - it's got an insane number of great elements.

[steb74 53]

Both scores contain a lot of fantastic music that didn't make it to the album.

AOTC - Shmi's Funeral

ROTS - Goodbye, Old Friend

I don't normally like to complain about what's left off the OSTs but these two omissions border on the criminally insane!

[Datameister 2,233]

Those aren't the two tracks that would have come to mind for me, but yes, they should have been made officially available.

[Trent B 340]

Revisiting Padmé and I Am The Senate were supposed to be on the OST for ROTS but were pulled off the last minute. I Am The Senate should never have been left off the OST.

The ending too for "It Can't Be" shouldn't have been edited either.

[John Crichton 4]

At least RotS has had so many video game leaks to give us most of the unreleased material. AotC hasn't been nearly as fortunate.

[Datameister 2,233]

I agree with both of your posts.

[Jay 38,934]

You've aded so much to the last 2 threads with your posts tonight Joe

[Uni 306]

The first kiss scene near the lake is definitely campy as scored.

Karol

Hmmmm, yes, maybe.

But wasn't that JW's intention? He probably told himself, A campy scene requires a campy cue.

Maybe "campy" is the right word for it. I'm not sure. I've never been certain how to describe that cue, except to say it's one of my least favorite moments in Williams' entire career. Makes me cringe painfully every time I see it.

AOTC: Attack of the Cheeseburgers

- Uni

[Datameister 2,233]

You've aded so much to the last 2 threads with your posts tonight Joe

Hmmm. Could you elaborate more? I think I agree, though.

[MattyO 62]

Revisiting Padmé and I Am The Senate were supposed to be on the OST for ROTS but were pulled off the last minute. I Am The Senate should never have been left off the OST.

My biggest disappointment with the Revenge of the Sith OST was the lack of the Emperor's Theme, especially as I heard the album before I saw the film. If "I Am The Senate" had been included, ROTS would be a top album in my JW collection. Do you know why these cues were pulled? (It seems strange since ROTS has the shortest album of the PT, yet arguably the most original music).

[Datameister 2,233]

I was EXTREMELY bummed that the very dark statement of the Emperor's theme from the start of "The Birth of the Twins" wasn't included. I think that was what I left the theater humming, actually. Should have been Battle of the Heroes...if only Williams had put it to use throughout the film.

[Trent B 340]

Do you know why these cues were pulled?

Nope non what so ever. Lucas (or Williams) probably had Sony pull them.

[Josh500 1,616]

Let me add that Attack of the Clones features some stunning Horn phrases. For example, on the track Main Title and Ambush on Coruscant, at the 1.38 mark, there is a stunning horn Phrase (in the movie, it accompanies that whale thing coming out of the water in Kamino), or the counter melody in Across the Stars (at the 1.30 mark). Really stunning passages in my book, I don't think I've ever heard better sounding horns.

Yes, agreed! I'm sure the horn player had a blast on this score.

Also, one of my favorite horn passages is in Across the Stars, at approx. the 4:00 mark. I love how the whole orchestra plays the main theme in full-blown unison, and only the French horn is left to carry that one single note... to continue with the B section. That moment gives me pleasurable shivers everytime, I tell you! Also, some complex orchestration going on here in the background (to represent the "turmoil" of the love affair or the whole situation)!

[Datameister 2,233]

Yes, agreed! I'm sure the horn player had a blast on this score.

Make that players - there were likely about eight of them.

[Josh500 1,616]

Make that players - there were likely about eight of them.

There were 6, at least that day! See at 5:13.

That makes me think of this: "Still not good! Tati-tatata. Agree about the length of the long note." It seems like JW was demanding nothing less than perfection from the horn players that day (or, come to that, probably from the whole orchestra.) Somehow this makes me smile every time:

At 3:30:

[Datameister 2,233]

Ah, right you are.

[TownerFan 4,998]

Considering how badly the drama is staged in Episode II, it's almost a miracle Williams was able to pull off a great love theme (maybe it's not his all-time best, but it's surely a great theme). But even Williams can't save a really bad movie.

AOTC is probably a less engaging score than the usual Star Wars score because the film itself is very flat and poorly directed. If in The Phantom Menace Williams had the problem of giving his score a dramatic center because the film had no clear main character/drama (hence he scored mostly the fancy aspect of what was essentially a kids movie), in AOTC he had the trouble of giving credibility to a flat love story. Romance is always a good starting point for the composer, but in the film the romance is badly developed, drowned within another confusing plot. Also it isn't staged with convinction from both the director and the actors.

Revenge of the Sith gave Williams a drama at least a bit better executed (even though the film has huge issues of script problems and flat direction), so maybe the music sounds a bit more sustained and engaging than AOTC.

[Josh500 1,616]

Considering how badly the drama is staged in Episode II, it's almost a miracle Williams was able to pull off a great love theme (maybe it's not his all-time best, but it's surely a great theme). But even Williams can't save a really bad movie.

That's what I call an exaggeration.

AotC is the least successful of the Star Wars movies, sure, but it's by no means as abysmal as you make it out to be. Sometimes a thing gets stuck in one's head and it gets blown out of proportion. In fact, I remember back in 2002 when this came out many people claiming that it's better than TPM...

But the score is, I would say, pretty solid. Not JW's best, but far from the worst.

[Ollie 1,108]

Considering how badly the drama is staged in Episode II, it's almost a miracle Williams was able to pull off a great love theme (maybe it's not his all-time best, but it's surely a great theme). But even Williams can't save a really bad movie.

AOTC is probably a less engaging score than the usual Star Wars score because the film itself is very flat and poorly directed. If in The Phantom Menace Williams had the problem of giving his score a dramatic center because the film had no clear main character/drama (hence he scored mostly the fancy aspect of what was essentially a kids movie), in AOTC he had the trouble of giving credibility to a flat love story. Romance is always a good starting point for the composer, but in the film the romance is badly developed, drowned within another confusing plot. Also it isn't staged with convinction from both the director and the actors.

Revenge of the Sith gave Williams a drama at least a bit better executed (even though the film has huge issues of script problems and flat direction), so maybe the music sounds a bit more sustained and engaging than AOTC.

Well said Maurizio, well said.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,364]

I agree. If you see what and who he had to work with, John Williams did a very good job. But I can't help noticing that it sounds like he put more effort into TPM then the other two.

[Josh500 1,616]

I agree. If you see what and who he had to work with, John Williams did a very good job. But I can't help noticing that it sounds like he put more effort into TPM then the other two.

Yes, definitely.

One reason is certainly that back in 1999 he had all the time he needed to work on TPM (Angela's Ashes came later in the year, if I am not mistaken). Both in 2002 and 2005 he had 4 movies to score each.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,364]

The other reason probably being that after realising moist of his music would be cut up anyway, he no longer needed to be so detailed.

[Ollie 1,108]

I agree. If you see what and who he had to work with, John Williams did a very good job. But I can't help noticing that it sounds like he put more effort into TPM then the other two.

Because I think he was intially excited about returning to the franchise. But a good part of me believes that after Lucas' butchering of his music in TPM and the quality of the following films, he just lost interest.

[Josh500 1,616]

The other reason probably being that after realising moist of his music would be cut up anyway, he no longer needed to be so detailed.

Well, I have an idea that George Lucas discussed this with John Williams, and they both decided to use some music from TPM for the subsequent movies...

But again, I think the original music he wrote for AotC and RotS are (almost) just as good as the original music for TPM. Almost, that is... though not quite.

[steb74 53]

The other reason probably being that after realising moist of his music would be cut up anyway, he no longer needed to be so detailed.

Perhaps you're just not hearing then Stefan as AOTC and ROTS contain so much incredibly detailed material.

Like them or dislike them, that's naturally your choice but it's certainly no reflection of how much effort was obviously put into them.

Of course nobody needs to be a composer or musician to decide if they like something or not but it is amusing when those who have no real idea about the compositional and creative process decide that a composer didn't make the effort soley based on how much or how little the music resonates within them.

For me personally, I find much more passion in them in the true spirit of Star Wars than in TPM, which I still consider to be magnificent.

[TownerFan 4,998]

Considering how badly the drama is staged in Episode II, it's almost a miracle Williams was able to pull off a great love theme (maybe it's not his all-time best, but it's surely a great theme). But even Williams can't save a really bad movie.

That's what I call an exaggeration.

AotC is the least successful of the Star Wars movies, sure, but it's by no means as abysmal as you make it out to be. Sometimes a thing gets stuck in one's head and it gets blown out of proportion. In fact, I remember back in 2002 when this came out many people claiming that it's better than TPM...

But the score is, I would say, pretty solid. Not JW's best, but far from the worst.

I'm not interested to be into the Anti-Lucas bandwagon, so my opinions are not as biased as they may seem. I think AOTC is a better film than TPM (at least it has a main character and a couple of sincere sequences), but it's even more frustrating because it seems that almost every narrative point is wasted to oblivion.

I too believe Williams' effort is far from being his worst. I enjoy most of the score and the OST is probably a good representation of the main highlights.

[Josh500 1,616]

Hmmm, yes, there are some noticeable weaknesses in AotC, I agree. But again, overall I think it's a pretty good movie (at least Lucas realized that we needed less rather than more of Jar-Jar Binks).

In AotC, there are some outstanding moments (film-wise and also musically): the Arena, the Chase through Coruscant, Jango's Escape, toward the end when the Imperial March is heard (in a new and somehow more menacing orchestration) as the clone troopers march onto their starships, and an impressive new version of the Trade Federation March. Also, last but not least the subtle and gentle Yoda's Theme played by a single flute in Yoda and the Younglings.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I agree with Maurizio. I think AOTC (and to some extent ROTS) has some very good starting out points, but trashes them immediately, more often than not by losing conviction in their execution and ignoring the narrative. I think TPM is more consistent in its quality (as low as that is), although I think ROTS is the most satisfying. One of the things about AOTC that has always bugged me is that it made lightsabers seem boring. Which is surely impossible.

[Ollie 1,108]

Well that's what happens when you try to make an 80 year old man and a crippled Muppet look fencing masters.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Well that's what happens when you try to make an 80 year old man and a crippled Muppet look fencing masters.

This is true, although like Neeson in TPM, I think Lee was far and away the best thing in the film. He brought a sense of class and gravitas, and he really should have lived until the middle of ROTS.

[Ollie 1,108]

Yes Christopher Lee was magnificent and only he could make that silly dialogue sound dignified.

I think part of the problem was that we see Obi-Wan go from an exciting duel as a Padawan to a Jedi Master who suddenly can't duel his way out of a paper sack.

Of course it would have been helpful is Lucas had included a little background on the Lee's character. I believe there was a deleted scene (or a scene that wasn't filmed but written) where it was explained that he was an expert swordsman amongst the Jedi, perhaps the best.

[Wojo 2,456]

For the lightsaber being an elegant weapon of a more civilized age and the Jedi not being soldiers, the prequels went a long way towards turning both statements into bullshit.