Alan Silvestri's Predator

[Jay 37,375]

Trent in regards to your point #2, you are wrong: The edit is at 6:02, NOT 5:54. Listen to the boot for proof.

In other news, I've updated the spreadsheet because I received some new information:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&hl=en&key=0AjiRtgP4_o4TdGdqalUxem0wZXZyZDQtUElxXzd1S1E&output=html

Basically, the major changes are:

1. "Grim Discovery" and "Dog Tags" are NOT two separate cues, even though they are separated on the boot. It's just two parts of 2m2. I think the boot makers heard silence and assumed they were separate.

2. Same with "Mac On Watch" and "Pig Alarm" - its just 6m6

3. Apparently, the end titles are ENTIRELY tracked from 1m1. I haven't updated the spreadsheet to reflect that yet, but I believe it to be true.

4. There exists versions of Main Title and Jungle Trek without percussion/synth overdubs, but they have never been released.

[Ollie 1,059]

It looks like one of my theories may have been correct:

No, we released everything that we had on the digital session masters. We did not leave anything off that as included on those.

http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3940&start=15

[Trent B 337]

That's odd the digital MASTERS would be missing material...

The fact that Doug actually edited two cues because it was his choice...just ugh. Don't get me wrong I'm glad to own a remastered version of this score but I wish that Doug had NOT done any editing on it what so ever. I would have had preferred it that the score been preserved 100%.

[steb74 53]

Wow, there are some real arse-kissers in that intrada thread, it's quite sickening <_<

[Trent B 337]

Wow, there are some real arse-kissers in that intrada thread, it's quite sickening <_<

Indeed man.

[Henry B 50]

That's odd the digital MASTERS would be missing material...

Digital masters aren't necessarily complete. Unless Intrada worked with absolute, raw recordings, it's possible that material was deleted.

[Ollie 1,059]

That's odd the digital MASTERS would be missing material...

Digital masters aren't necessarily complete. Unless Intrada worked with absolute, raw recordings, it's possible that material was deleted.

It's better than having a bunch of dipshits running around spreading wrong info or jumping to uninformed opinions.

[Trent B 337]

That's odd the digital MASTERS would be missing material...

Digital masters aren't necessarily complete. Unless Intrada worked with absolute, raw recordings, it's possible that material was deleted.

It's better than having a bunch of dipshits running around spreading wrong info or jumping to uninformed opinions.

You two do make good points.

[fommes 153]

It's a rather indirect way of answering a very legitimate (and very politely asked) question though. Instead, they seem to go out of their way to only reply to the whiners that have hijacked Jay's thread; and then Fake even sees fit to write a long rant post on those whiners, instead of posting a simple straightforward answer. In short, I feel soundtrack producers are becoming whiners about whiners lately - instead of just ignoring them, and only answering legitimate and honest questions. In this way, they're almost making all kinds of criticism equal to whining.

Whining over!

[Ollie 1,059]

Well in fairness to Intrada there are several culprits at their board and FSM that are / were annoying Trolls.

Those are the ones Doug's rant was mostly aimed at. Unfortunately those with good intentions can sometimes feel the wrath as well.

You're never going to get everyone on the same page when it comes to assembling an album.

You have people who complain there is too much music on albums, you have people who complain there are too many long cues, people who complain that there are too many short cues and need to combine them into longer cues, you have people who get upset when both the score and album are presented even though you pay the same price as a single disc. You have people bitching about artwork and cue titles. People complain because all that is available is mono, they complain when the labels don't enhance the mono, they complain when the labels do enhance the mono. They complain about studio noises and sounds that are inherent in the original masters that cannot be truly corrected.

Every label has their own way of doing things, each one is a producer for their albums and they are going to make the choices, much like John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith, to name a few, did before the labels even began releasing complete scores.

And to be honest, when there is a legitimate error, they usually correct it. Just because someone doesn't like the editing choices, number of discs, amount of music or mastering does not mean it is a legitimate error.

[Jay 37,375]

Yea. I never once mentioned the cue combining or other choices Doug made for Intrada's version of Predator.

I was only trying to find out why they did not include AN ENTIRE CUE.

The people bitching about the cue combining and crossfading ruined by chances of getting a legitimate answer

[Wojo 2,453]

I am going to start bitching when I receive my next jewel case with the hinge on the right.

[Andy 4,147]

I was only trying to find out why they did not include AN ENTIRE CUE.

I suppose that is kinda frustrating. Was it a good cue? I never heard the Varese, but after listening to the Intrada, I couldn't think of anything that I remembered from the film that was missing. It was a satisfying release for me.

I like Intrada. I find their quality of product to be outstanding. I know Bruce Kimmel stands by his "It's the Music That Matters", but I disagree. Buying a piece of a film you enjoy is an experience. Remember the old gatefold LPs from the big Williams scores like ESB? The posters they used to pack with Star Wars and King Kong? I bought Carrie and Gorky Park from Kritzerland, and I'd have to say, the liner notes and presentation is bland. I know that doesn't matter to a lot of folks, but it matters to me. I've never gotten an Intrada disc and been let down.

[Ollie 1,059]

Basically the missing music is similar to the opening cue where the Predator's ship flies by and ejects the pod over earth. The end credits for Predator 2 also begin in similar fashion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue3YRWLACsI&feature=related

The first 1:10 seconds.

[Andy 4,147]

Well, it is odd that that somehow didn't make the cut. Jay's question is certainly valid. I can also understand Doug needing to release some steam. Reminds me of when I was a classroom teacher, and sometimes the bad kids would chip away at you to the point where every once in a while, you'd explode and bark at one of the good kids too, just because the bad kids had you so pissy.

Seeing how that cue is really just a reprise of the beginning cue, I guess I can live without it.

[Jay 37,375]

Yea, I actually prefer the reprise of "He's My friend" as a way to end the movie instead of The Pick-Up..... however, Intrada should have still included it.

[Ollie 1,059]

Jason just asked at the wrong time.

I think Roger's answer is probably the best we'll get right now. Intrada is pretty thorough in their assemblies.

Remember they waited for months to release volume 3 of Amazing Stories because they were searching for Elfman's Family Dog sessions, waited as long as they could on Link and Spacecamp and are trying to find that final cue from Roadhouse.

[Jay 37,375]

I don't know if I necessarily believe Roger's answer... I see NO reason that cue wouldn't be on the digital session masters. And even if it wasn't, they should have known about that cue, as it was on both the bootleg AND Varese's CD.

And yes, Intrada absolutely seems to always make sure they've exhausted every avenue on their way to release a score in complete form. All of those scores you pointed out are perfect examples of this. However, everyone makes mistakes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sometimes, shit happens, someone's gotta deal with it, and who are you gonna call?

[OneBuckFilms 324]

If I understand correctly, the missing cue was not actually used at all in the movie.

This being the case, it may not have been transferred to the digital mix intended for the movie (which these tapes may actually be), and thus would not be present.

It would also explain why the end credit cues were the film versions, rather than the original recorded versions heard on the Varese release.

[Trent B 337]

If I understand correctly, the missing cue was not actually used at all in the movie.

This being the case, it may not have been transferred to the digital mix intended for the movie (which these tapes may actually be), and thus would not be present.

It would also explain why the end credit cues were the film versions, rather than the original recorded versions heard on the Varese release.

That's another good possibility but yes the original cue "The Pick-Up" was not used in the film at all. Sorta wondered if they used film stems for some cues like "The Pick-Up and End Credits".

[OneBuckFilms 324]

It would explain a great many things.

It is obvious to me that these were not the scoring session takes, but the digital stems for the movie.

It may well be that the original film tapes are lost to time, and that Varese CD was made from analogue backups from the scoring sessions.

[Jay 37,375]

If I understand correctly, the missing cue was not actually used at all in the movie.

Correct.

This being the case, it may not have been transferred to the digital mix intended for the movie (which these tapes may actually be), and thus would not be present.

That's possible, but that doesn't mean Intrada shouldn't have tracked down the cue anyway.

It would also explain why the end credit cues were the film versions, rather than the original recorded versions heard on the Varese release.

There's no such thing; The End Credits are ENTIRELY tracked from the Main Titles. Silvestri never wrote an original End Title cue.

That's another good possibility but yes the original cue "The Pick-Up" was not used in the film at all. Sorta wondered if they used film stems for some cues like "The Pick-Up and End Credits".

I doubt any film stems were used at all, either by Varese or Intrada

It is obvious to me that these were not the scoring session takes, but the digital stems for the movie.

That is not obvious to me at all, and in fact I completely disagree with you. They'd have no reason to use film stems, and every single track on both CDs is the FULL cue as recorded, NOT the final film edit. The obvious exception is the film version of The Pick-Up and the End Credits, which don't exist and were edited by the Matessino and Doug Fake respectively.

It may well be that the original film tapes are lost to time, and that Varese CD was made from analogue backups from the scoring sessions.

I think the Intrada CD used the original tapes, I don't know what Varese's source was but it was hopefully digital too.

[Ollie 1,059]

I believe Varese used analog sources.

Yep they did.

http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3558&start=0

[OneBuckFilms 324]

If I understand correctly, the missing cue was not actually used at all in the movie.

Correct.

This being the case, it may not have been transferred to the digital mix intended for the movie (which these tapes may actually be), and thus would not be present.

That's possible, but that doesn't mean Intrada shouldn't have tracked down the cue anyway.

It would also explain why the end credit cues were the film versions, rather than the original recorded versions heard on the Varese release.

There's no such thing; The End Credits are ENTIRELY tracked from the Main Titles. Silvestri never wrote an original End Title cue.

That's another good possibility but yes the original cue "The Pick-Up" was not used in the film at all. Sorta wondered if they used film stems for some cues like "The Pick-Up and End Credits".

I doubt any film stems were used at all, either by Varese or Intrada

It is obvious to me that these were not the scoring session takes, but the digital stems for the movie.

That is not obvious to me at all, and in fact I completely disagree with you. They'd have no reason to use film stems, and every single track on both CDs is the FULL cue as recorded, NOT the final film edit. The obvious exception is the film version of The Pick-Up and the End Credits, which don't exist and were edited by the Matessino and Doug Fake respectively.

It may well be that the original film tapes are lost to time, and that Varese CD was made from analogue backups from the scoring sessions.

I think the Intrada CD used the original tapes, I don't know what Varese's source was but it was hopefully digital too.

Doug Fake stated himself, and there's no reason for him to lie, that he had every cue from those masters on the CD. Either he is lying and deliberately left off the missing cue, or that is in fact the case.

Given how thorough he is known to be in his research for CD releases, and the efforts he goes to to get ahold of missing material, it is only logical to assume that the missing cue is simply not present on those digital tapes. Not used in the film, nowhere on those digital tapes when everything else is present, it may indicate that that cue simply does not exist on those digital tapes at all.

Given this, what other plausible explanation could their be?

If they recorded the cues digitally initially, with an analogue backup (which Varese had), then they edit the cues in for timing, rejecting the missing one out-of-hand for tracked material, and edited the end credits we hear in the film, then that would obvoiusly indicate an intermediate stage before the cues are sent to be placed in the final mix for the movie.

To maintain quality, these film mixes may have been transferred digitally, and this could be what Intrada had.

After all, I doubt they would deliberately miss out a cue and precisely re-create the heavily tracked film version of the End Credits cue. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Editing two cues together and chopping bars to create a transition point to suit his tastes is something he's done in the past, from what I can gather.

As stated by Intrada, in their press release for the score, Varese used ANALOGUE tapes, which I would assume to be a backup of the digital recordings, ala Star Trek II.

Also, it may be that the tracks that are "as recorded" may have been further edited from the digital sources at the final mixing stage. A lot of adjusting and editing happens in post, and music can change at more than one point.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So why did they not just use the analog back up for this one track?

[Jay 37,375]

Doug Fake stated himself, and there's no reason for him to lie, that he had every cue from those masters on the CD. Either he is lying and deliberately left off the missing cue, or that is in fact the case.

I'm sorry, but exactly where did Doug Fake state that? I saw Roger's post on the Intrada board, where he said "No, we released everything that we had on the digital session masters. We did not leave anything off that as included on those." - but he didn't work on the CD, Doug did. Roger could have mis-informed, or asked Doug in passing, and Doug didn't remember correctly, etc.

So why did they not just use the analog back up for this one track?

An excellent question

[OneBuckFilms 324]

Doug Fake stated himself, and there's no reason for him to lie, that he had every cue from those masters on the CD. Either he is lying and deliberately left off the missing cue, or that is in fact the case.

I'm sorry, but exactly where did Doug Fake state that? I saw Roger's post on the Intrada board, where he said "No, we released everything that we had on the digital session masters. We did not leave anything off that as included on those." - but he didn't work on the CD, Doug did. Roger could have mis-informed, or asked Doug in passing, and Doug didn't remember correctly, etc.

So why did they not just use the analog back up for this one track?

An excellent question

Difference in sound quality? The idea never came up? Just logical guesses.

Also, Doug has never corrected Roger on this. It is possible, but I see no evidenceto contradict Roger's statements.

Again, I also point out how blunt Roger and Doug are about the other editing choices made.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

I doubt sound quality would be an issue unless it was really serious

I'm pretty sure there's something in the BTTF liner notes mentioning that some of the 'early' score came from lesser sources, and that we might notice quality differences.

But if there was some issue with editing between good and bad sources, you'd think they would just present the cue as a bonus.

Is it plausible that there was some legal problem with using the same material that appeared on the Varese issue? I.e. they could only use material that was on the newly discovered digital master?

[Trent B 337]

It said in the press release for Intrada that there was more hiss in the analogue masters. That's why there's hiss on the Varèse set.

[Jay 37,375]

The Intrada CD certainly sounds better than the Varese CD, which is why it's such a shame The Pick-Up wasn't included

[OneBuckFilms 324]

If it was on the Digital Masters, I'm sure they would have released it. Makes me wish I'd had the Varese set for that cue.

[Kevin 22]

How much?

Check your Private Messages.