John Williams & Mahler

[point_reyes 0]

Not to denigrate JW's wonderful work in any way, has anyone else noticed the similarity of the E.T. flying theme and the slow theme in the middle of the 3rd movement of Mahler's 9th Symphony? There are at least six notes that are identical in the melody or theme. Perhaps it is a coincidence, or perhaps Mahler's 9th Symphony was in the back of JW's mind at some point when he wrote E.T?

[filmmusic 1,843]

Well, I would say that the E.T theme resembles more Les Baxter's Joy ,for which there was a lawsuit against Williams but he won. And Williams had performed this piece in a concert, so subconciously he may have derived something from it..

I find myself many times when i compose, fearing that a theme I found might resemble something I've heard in the past and I don't really remember it..

These things happen...

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Jeez, that guy freakin' steals everything. Or was it Angela Morley?

[point_reyes 0]

Well, I would say that the E.T theme resembles more Les Baxter's Joy ,for which there was a lawsuit against Williams but he won. And Williams had performed this piece in a concert, so subconciously he may have derived something from it..

I find myself many times when i compose, fearing that a theme I found might resemble something I've heard in the past and I don't really remember it..

These things happen...

Filmmusic,

I didn't know about Les Baxter's 'Joy', so have just played the excerpt on amazon, and yes, interesting!

Interestingly when Les Baxter hired Nelson Riddle to write arrangements for Nat Cole, Baxter didn't credit Riddle for the arrangements (Mona Lisa, for example) as he was the conductor during the early Cole sessions, Baxter allowed himself to be credited with the arrangement. It was only after Cole found out who actually wrote the arrangement that Riddle was rightfully acknowledged.

[filmmusic 1,843]

Well, I would say that the E.T theme resembles more Les Baxter's Joy ,for which there was a lawsuit against Williams but he won. And Williams had performed this piece in a concert, so subconciously he may have derived something from it..

I find myself many times when i compose, fearing that a theme I found might resemble something I've heard in the past and I don't really remember it..

These things happen...

Filmmusic,

I didn't know about Les Baxter's 'Joy', so have just played the excerpt on amazon, and yes, interesting!

Interestingly when Les Baxter hired Nelson Riddle to write arrangements for Nat Cole, Baxter didn't credit Riddle for the arrangements (Mona Lisa, for example) as he was the conductor during the early Cole sessions, Baxter allowed himself to be credited with the arrangement. It was only after Cole found out who actually wrote the arrangement that Riddle was rightfully acknowledged.

here is the score too, for anyone who would like to compare ;-)

http://web.cfa.arizona.edu/lesbaxter/collection/scores/Joy.html

(the theme in discussion starts on page 5)

[Quintus 5,399]

I still haven't heard this "Joy" piece.

Edit: iTunes sample wasn't similar in the sightest.

Anyway, I think in Williams' case it's all just coincidence, and I ain't no Williams apologist, either.

Heck, the utterly sublime seventies Black Beauty theme reminds me of E.T. a bit. Does that mean JW used to watch it?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,557]

It's not surprising that, given the fact that there are only 12 notes in the scale, composers would "overlap" with each at some point in their carrers. The question is: 'did they do it intentionally?' I remember the "He's So Fine"/"My Sweet Lord" controversy. There's also "Wild World"/"It's A Sin", and an interview with Tony Banks revealed that he thought he had re-written "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas", instead of "Afterglow".

It can, and does happen. That there are not many more lawsuits is the only surprising thing.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Someone saw Levine conduct this at Boston Symphony Hall.

I'd have preferred Williams' E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial.

[David Coscina 4]

Clearly Williams is a hack. Why would we even think of having a forum dedicated to such a phony-baloney?

Seriously though, look at any major composer in the history of music and you will find that all of them took from what came before them. Perhaps not Bach but he was kind of almost at the beginning of its development but everyone else incorporated what they liked. And concert composers had the luxury of greater time frames with which to compose their music. Film composers have never really enjoyed a long deliberate composing period and are constrained by temp tracks, musically illiterate directors, focus groups, etc. Add all that up and it's amazing we got the quality of symphonic music we did from 1930-1990's. I'm still up in the air about most of what's come out from the past 10 years with a few notable exceptions, most of which are Williams' work.

[Wojo 2,453]

I changed my AlbumArtist for E.T. to "Gustav Mahler." Thanks for clarifying this.

[Nemesis 245]

When Williams was inspired by someone then I would assume it was Dvorak.

I once played a piano trio and at one point there it was. A little snippet of E.T. but that's all.

What Williams has made with these notes is stunning!

[filmmusic 1,843]

When Williams was inspired by someone then I would assume it was Dvorak.

I once played a piano trio and at one point there it was. A little snippet of E.T. but that's all.

What Williams has made with these notes is stunning!

oh yes.. that's it:

[point_reyes 0]

When Williams was inspired by someone then I would assume it was Dvorak.

I once played a piano trio and at one point there it was. A little snippet of E.T. but that's all.

What Williams has made with these notes is stunning!

oh yes.. that's it:

Shocking! How could Dvorak steal like this?!!

[Ollie 1,059]

Jeez, that guy freakin' steals everything. Or was it Angela Morley?

Actually she could have asked that of Jerry Goldsmith, Captain Nemo And The Underwater City - Supergirl.

[Quintus 5,399]

Morely IS the unsung QUEEN of film music and John and Jerry owe their entire careers to her.

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes, it could be quite funny if we ever found out exactly what contributions she made to Goldsmith's and Williams' music.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

It's too bad people talk more about her potential writings than her actual great writings (especially the superb Watership Down).

[point_reyes 0]

Actually just listening to that Mahler clip above (and that's conductor Bruno Walter in the picture conducting the 1st recording of the 9th Symphony in 1938 with the Vienna Philharmonic - Walter was Mahler's friend, Mahler died in 1911), and how cimematic it sounds!

[TownerFan 4,987]

Every true film music fan MUST listen to Mahler.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Every true film music fan MUST listen to Mahler.

And Stranvinksy. His Firebird suite could fit perfectly in the Star Wars films!

[TownerFan 4,987]

Of course. And also Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Debussy, Ravel, Vaughan Williams, Britten, Copland, Respighi, Rimsky-Korsakov... and at least three dozens of others

[Quintus 5,399]

Every true film music fan MUST listen to Mahler.

What a load of bollocks.

[Josh500 1,615]

Well, I would say that the E.T theme resembles more Les Baxter's Joy ,for which there was a lawsuit against Williams but he won.

Did JW win? I thought he settled it out of court for an undisclosed sum...

I changed my AlbumArtist for E.T. to "Gustav Mahler." Thanks for clarifying this.

Why don't you change the artist for Jaws to Dvorak while you're at it?

[filmmusic 1,843]

Well, I would say that the E.T theme resembles more Les Baxter's Joy ,for which there was a lawsuit against Williams but he won.

Did JW win? I thought he settled it out of court for an undisclosed sum...

here's the article about it:

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2000/27_Apr---Baxter_v_Williams_Lawsuit_Recap.asp

[Naïve Old Fart 9,557]

Morely IS the unsung QUEEN of film music and John and Jerry owe their entire careers to her.

QUEEN of film music? She sounds nothing like Brian May

It's too bad people talk more about her potential writings than her actual great writings (especially the superb Watership Down).

Agreed, 'Watership Down' is qiute surperb. I read the book once; it was more like watered down shit.

Every true film music fan MUST listen to Mahler.

What a load of bollocks.

Agreed.

[point_reyes 0]

Perhaps Mahler subconsciously remembered Dvorak's trio when he was composing the 3rd movement of the 9th.

[TownerFan 4,987]

Every true film music fan MUST listen to Mahler.

What a load of bollocks.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I'm convinced that many film music fans should really dedicate some of their times to at least a bit of the great symphonic music of the past. It gives you a much better idea to understand the origins of what the majority of film composers do and where they're coming from.

[Ollie 1,059]

I know I'll get flamed for this but I've never been a fan of classical music. Oh I have a few albums but it just doesn't interest me.

[Jay 37,380]

Ditto, except I don't even have any albums at all

[Romão 2,274]

It's your loss, really

[MrScratch 294]

There is a section of the Resurrection symphony that has always reminded me of those "swelling strings" from E.T.'s final goodbye scene.

I love Mahler. If you can listen to Mahler's Resurrection symphony and not be moved by it then you have no soul.

[TownerFan 4,987]

You can be a film music fan and not a classical music buff, of course.

But I think a knowledge of the great symphonic repertoire can give you a better understanding of how film music evolved and how film composers master their craft. And it's also a good way to sort better good film music from bad film music.

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm sure it's all very fascinating to some people, but I personally have no interest in the obvious classical origins of film music; I just like what I like.

[Romão 2,274]

The things is, in may ways, they are exactly the same type of music, so I can't understand why someone who likes this type of music would shut himself out to some of the absolutely greatest works of art ever produced. And as Maurizio said, I really helps you judge film music on purely musical terms and greatly expand your own musical canvas and sensibility. But on top of my head, something as Scheherezade is as cinematic as music gets. The fact it wasn't written for a film shouldn't make absolutely any difference.

And of course whe should listen to what we like. But to broaden our minds and musical taste, we have sometimes to try slightly more demanding music and be somewhat patient until you are finally struck by its genious. THis even happens solely with film music

[Quintus 5,399]

I love classical music and do listen to it, but I'm never really analysing it in a way which compels me to somehow link it to modern day film music. Aesthetically they are indeed very similar, but the similarities end there, on that level. The two mediums appeal and satisfy in very, very different ways.

[Romão 2,274]

Well, it is an interesting discussion, but I really can't say classical music and film music appeal in very different ways, specially in the case of great film music written by some of the masters, though some film music can be enjoyed almost as pop music, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm one of those persons who completelt ignores the movie when listening to film music, so I guess that helps bridge the two styles together.

[Ollie 1,059]

I know I've mentioned it before, I don't associate film music with the movies when I'm listening to it. I treat it as a separate entity, which can be difficult sometimes, especially when the music turns to "mickey mousing".

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, it is an interesting discussion, but I really can't say classical music and film music appeal in very different ways, specially in the case of great film music written by some of the masters, though some film music can be enjoyed almost as pop music, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Indeed, and the exact same can be said of a lot of classical music. William Tell Overture anyone?

I'm one of those persons who completelt ignores the movie when listening to film music, so I guess that helps bridge the two styles together.

Depending on my mood, I'll often totally ignore the movie's influence or embrace it completely. I have no preference.

[Wojo 2,453]

I was exposed to classical music before I was exposed to film music. I enjoy many types of good instrumental music. It's relaxing and cranially stimulating to listen to music without words.

[point_reyes 0]

I love classical music and do listen to it, but I'm never really analysing it in a way which compels me to somehow link it to modern day film music. Aesthetically they are indeed very similar, but the similarities end there, on that level. The two mediums appeal and satisfy in very, very different ways.

Quint,

Interesting comment. I do and I don't; some of Williams's scores are abstract in themselves so I find I can listen to Jaws independently from the film, but sometimes if I do I'll get a feel for the atmosphere of the film locations for instance. A recent trip to Navarre beach in Florida was inspired by Jaws 2, and I took the soundtrack of the movie along with me to play in the hire car!

I can't play the wonderful, slow descending string chords that follow the opening music of Psycho without thinking about the city of Phoenix

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I'm gonna sound like an ass, but it's not classical music what I like, it's romantic music. That's Stravinksy, Wagner, all the good ones. The ones that inspired Korngold, Waxman, Williams... The romantic composers are the Gods of music, and the fathers of film music.

Please, give a chance to this...

[Quintus 5,399]

You don't sound like an ass

I love classical music and do listen to it, but I'm never really analysing it in a way which compels me to somehow link it to modern day film music. Aesthetically they are indeed very similar, but the similarities end there, on that level. The two mediums appeal and satisfy in very, very different ways.

Quint,

Interesting comment. I do and I don't; some of Williams's scores are abstract in themselves so I find I can listen to Jaws independently from the film, but sometimes if I do I'll get a feel for the atmosphere of the film locations for instance. A recent trip to Navarre beach in Florida was inspired by Jaws 2, and I took the soundtrack of the movie along with me to play in the hire car!

I can't play the wonderful, slow descending string chords that follow the opening music of Psycho without thinking about the city of Phoenix

Yes, the fact that film music can be so evocative for so many different reasons, varying from person to person, is the beauty of it and I guess the reason why we are compelled to share our feelings about film music here - where people 'get it'.

[Wojo 2,453]

Yes, yes, yes. "Classical music" dates from the late 1700s to the early 1800s. The romantic period roughly began around the same time that Beethoven died, and lasted until the 19th century.

It's just easier to refer to the vast chunk of instrumental music from the time of Bach and Handel (baroque) up until the days of Gershwin, Prokofiev, and Stravinksy (20th century) as "classical," even the operas and ballets contained in that same time.

"Romantic music" often carries the connotation of Barry White, Rod Stewart, and Michael Bolton.

[Nikolas 0]

It's always fun to search for a classical "predecessor" of the E. T. Flying Theme. Besides Mahler, Dvořák and Baxter here's obviously another one: Listen to Korngold's Rondo/Finale, i. e. the 5th movement of "Suite for 2 Violins, Cello & Piano Left Hand, op. 23".

Go to YouTube:

And confer: from 02:29 to 02:32; from 02:44 to 02:47; from 06:44 to 06:47; from 06:57 to 07:00.

Am I right?

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

"Romantic music" often carries the connotation of Barry White, Rod Stewart, and Michael Bolton.

I know, but I just wanted to make it clear, because I don't enjoy listening to Vivaldi as I enjoy listening to Wagner. It's curious that people say that Williams is repetitive when virtually anyone can spot a Vivaldi piece.

Most people refer to "classical music" to any orchestral piece of music. If it doesn't have lyrics, they don't like it

[Datameister 2,044]

It's curious that people say that Williams is repetitive when virtually anyone can spot a Vivaldi piece.

Seriously. Many very well-respected composers have had extremely distinct styles. I took a Beethoven class in college, and by far the hardest part was having to recognize and name a few dozen different pieces he wrote...because they all sounded like another Beethoven piece. It's not like every Bach fugue sounds totally fresh and different and unique, you know? Classical elitists will go off on Williams or whoever because of their supposed repetitiveness, but I find more variety in his oeuvre than in that of some of the giants whose shoulders he stands on.

[Romão 2,274]

I'm gonna sound like an ass, but it's not classical music what I like, it's romantic music. That's Stravinksy, Wagner, all the good ones. The ones that inspired Korngold, Waxman, Williams... The romantic composers are the Gods of music, and the fathers of film music.

Please, give a chance to this...

I'm no expert, but I'm probably talking bollocks here, but Stravinsky is the last name on my mind when I think of Romantic composers. Even Williams can hardly be called a Romantic. One of the greatest strengths in Williams music is how well he amalgamates (and why not, culminates), so many different eras of orchestral music

[point_reyes 0]

I'm gonna sound like an ass, but it's not classical music what I like, it's romantic music. That's Stravinksy, Wagner, all the good ones. The ones that inspired Korngold, Waxman, Williams... The romantic composers are the Gods of music, and the fathers of film music.

Please, give a chance to this...

I'm no expert, but I'm probably talking bollocks here, but Stravinsky is the last name on my mind when I think of Romantic composers. Even Williams can hardly be called a Romantic. One of the greatest strengths in Williams music is how well he amalgamates (and why not, culminates), so many different eras of orchestral music

Well, I think The Firebird is possibly Stravinsky's most romantic score, certainly the one most influenced by Rimsky Korsakov in terms of melody and orchestration.

As for Stravinsky's influence on Korngold, I'm not so sure. Take Korngold's Schauspiel-Ouvertüre written in 1910 when he was only 13(!) and it is straight out of Strauss and Mahler, two of his idols, but it is also VERY Korngold. That piece does not sound like Strauss or Mahler, but is influenced by them.

By the time we come to the first golden age of film scoring in Hollywood, it is Korngold who creates the Hollywood sound in the 1930s and it is, of course this sound along with his main orchestrator - Hugo Friedhofer that carries directly onto the John Williams/Herbert Spencer collaboration like a 50 year musical blood transfusion.

Who would have thought that the Korngold/Friedhofer soundworld of 1935 would be so influencial 50 years later in scores such as Star Wars and Superman!

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I'm no expert either, but I think Stravinksy's Firebird is a great starting point for those who aren't very connected with romantic music.

And every time I hear those swashbuckling Korngold brass fanfares I wanna have a swordfight, discover a treasure and sail away! That's the most impressive brass writing ever. Just like with The Sea Hawk fanfare. Sooo good swashbuckling music.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Let's not forget Baroque!

One of my favorite pieces of music ever, and the best performance of it I've ever heard. Not soft and cutesy and smooth. Aggressive, loud, and sharp, as you would expect that time period to be: