mrbellamy 6,289 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 He revisits them for concert performances but I think that is the only reason he does that.That's probably reason enough not to revisit his old scores. I'm sure if he never hears Star Wars, Superman, ET, Indiana Jones, or Harry Potter again, it will be too soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 He revisits them for concert performances but I think that is the only reason he does that.That's probably reason enough not to revisit his old scores. I'm sure if he never hears Star Wars, Superman, ET, Indiana Jones, or Harry Potter again, it will be too soon.Too true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,478 Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I am in fucking awe of this score! And the maestro for writing this. I seriously think this is one of the most brilliant scores of the past few years and a solid gold Williams classic, I might even put in my list of Top 5 favorite works by him. I more than love it.On a side note what is extremely intersting is the realization that even the main title sequence was actually scored. Like it wasn't that Williams just wrote some two minute jazz accompaniment to the titles, the music is suspenseful or exciting or heroic in sync with the title sequence.This is one of the reasons I believe that none of the other versions of the main title music is a concert suite of the Tintin theme. A concert version of the heroic Tintin theme wouldn't fit the main title sequence at all. So it is definitely not it.But I do hope that Williams records concert versions of some of the themes from Tintin. The Tintin theme specially. Its one of the best themes he has ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I'm not so sure about that, although I like your enthusiasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Its a bloody brilliant score, I'll give ya that. And one of the best adventure scores to come out in a while. But the maestro has done A LOT of bloody brilliant scores, which leaves no room for Tintin (at least in my eyes) in Williamst top 5. But Tintin is far better than a lot of composers' bests.It just goes to show how freakin amazing Williams truly is as a composer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Personally I think that was one of the best DVD documentry extras on JW, I adore seeing him work the orchestra at a recording session. Lets hope someone gets that alternate opening title sequence out on a complete score album i'm hoping for another great score feature on War Horse Thanks for posting.The specs of the Blu-Ray1080p High DefinitionHigh Definition 2.35:1No 7.1 audio!DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1Really dissapointed about this, I really wanted it in 7.1 as in cinemas http://www.amazon.com/War-Horse-Four-Disc-Combo/dp/B0072GPQ72/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1331424648&sr=8-2The back clearly lists 7.1 audio. Where'd you get the idea it wasn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Did he start by saying he already forgot he scored it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Its a bloody brilliant score, I'll give ya that. And one of the best adventure scores to come out in a while. But the maestro has done A LOT of bloody brilliant scores, which leaves no room for Tintin (at least in my eyes)Yeah this is the "problem" with JW. He doesn't fit in a top 10 or a top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 This is really a great JW featurette!One disappointing thing, though: most (or all?) of the music you hear is not what the orchestra is actually playing in the footage, is it? It's from the OS recording...Oh well.The pirate battle music is really being played by the orchestra.It was available for a limited time on the english website as the background track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedwig 5 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 WOW. I've just realised, at 3.43 in the video you see John Williams conducting a full orchestra, with the Tintin opening sequence playing on the big scoring screen!! You see it again at 3.56, could this be John conducting the alternate Tintin heroic adventure cue ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Nice spy - we can at least guess at some of the instrumentation for these alternate cues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 You know, compared with the Abbey Road Studio where the LSO usually performs, this recording studio kinda looks like an oversized garage where they just put a big screen on one wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Actually the LSO usually performs at the Barbican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I should have written, "Where the LSO usually performs the score of Star Wars..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 'recorded' is the word.if the LSO performs music from star wars is in a concert hall not abbey road/anvil studios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedwig 5 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Nice spy - we can at least guess at some of the instrumentation for these alternate cues.It's a shame you can't see more of what the orchestra is doing in the small clips we get. What interests me is, what is more likely to leak? Recording session footage in which you can hear the alternate cues being performed or full recording sessions? I have no idea about the likelihood of either of these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 They're not performing an alternate cue - you can hear them playing the present cue in the background. The instrumentation of "The Adventures of Tintin" or 'Tinker-Tin" is kind of a full orchestra, but less brass (3 horns, 1 trumpet con sordini, 1 trombone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanner251 17 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I found it very interesting that JW talked about working in a very classic "Disney-esque" sort of way where some of the music was composed first and then things were animated to fit. The idea of coming up with dramatic or comedic hits before the screen action has completely unfolded is an interesting one. Composing music to script seems like it would be quite the challenge. Of course, nothing can stump our favorite Maestro.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InTheCity 140 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks for Posting. JW was very musical in this interview speaking like a composer rather then a director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedwig 5 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 They're not performing an alternate cue - you can hear them playing the present cue in the background. The instrumentation of "The Adventures of Tintin" or 'Tinker-Tin" is kind of a full orchestra, but less brass (3 horns, 1 trumpet con sordini, 1 trombone).No there are other clips where you see him recording the present cue and it is a small ensemble. You it very clearly at 3.53. Also the 'The Adventures of Tintin' does not include any string instruments, apart from a double bass performing the 'walking bass'. In the clips with the full orchestra you can see the cellos playing on one side and you can see in the reflection on the grand piano that the violins are playing as well. We can't see woodwind or brass, they are out of sight but we can presume they will be playing since they wouldn't set the orchestra up like that if they didin't. As I said it can't be the present cue because the cellos, violins etc do not play in it. That's why it's so exciting, who knows what other kind of thing John Williams could have written ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannhauser 101 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 They're not performing an alternate cue - you can hear them playing the present cue in the background. The instrumentation of "The Adventures of Tintin" or 'Tinker-Tin" is kind of a full orchestra, but less brass (3 horns, 1 trumpet con sordini, 1 trombone).No there are other clips where you see him recording the present cue and it is a small ensemble. You it very clearly at 3.53. Also the 'The Adventures of Tintin' does not include any string instruments, apart from a double bass performing the 'walking bass'. In the clips with the full orchestra you can see the cellos playing on one side and you can see in the reflection on the grand piano that the violins are playing as well. We can't see woodwind or brass, they are out of sight but we can presume they will be playing since they wouldn't set the orchestra up like that if they didin't. As I said it can't be the present cue because the cellos, violins etc do not play in it. That's why it's so exciting, who knows what other kind of thing John Williams could have written ?There are strings in "The Adventures of Tintin". I've studied the score. The cello section accompanies the "walking bass line" when the orchestration gets more dense further on. And the violins and violas play very briefly about halfway through. The version he did with the small jazz band was probably an earlier version of the final, more fully orchestrated cue. The sheet is marked as "Tinker-Tin" REVISED. The instrumentation is6 Saxophones (3 alto, 3 baritone)1 Clarinet2 Bass Clarinets3 Horns1 Trumpet (con sordino)2 trombonestubaPercussion (drum kit/chimes)AccordionSynthesizerPianoHarpsichord1st and 2nd ViolinsViolasCelliand 1 solo bass.Mods, if this is sensitive information, feel free to delete my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,372 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Discussion of all sheet music is completely allowed, no worries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedwig 5 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 They're not performing an alternate cue - you can hear them playing the present cue in the background. The instrumentation of "The Adventures of Tintin" or 'Tinker-Tin" is kind of a full orchestra, but less brass (3 horns, 1 trumpet con sordini, 1 trombone).No there are other clips where you see him recording the present cue and it is a small ensemble. You it very clearly at 3.53. Also the 'The Adventures of Tintin' does not include any string instruments, apart from a double bass performing the 'walking bass'. In the clips with the full orchestra you can see the cellos playing on one side and you can see in the reflection on the grand piano that the violins are playing as well. We can't see woodwind or brass, they are out of sight but we can presume they will be playing since they wouldn't set the orchestra up like that if they didin't. As I said it can't be the present cue because the cellos, violins etc do not play in it. That's why it's so exciting, who knows what other kind of thing John Williams could have written ?There are strings in "The Adventures of Tintin". I've studied the score. The cello section accompanies the "walking bass line" when the orchestration gets more dense further on. And the violins and violas play very briefly about halfway through. The version he did with the small jazz band was probably an earlier version of the final, more fully orchestrated cue. The sheet is marked as "Tinker-Tin" REVISED. The instrumentation is6 Saxophones (3 alto, 3 baritone)1 Clarinet2 Bass Clarinets3 Horns1 Trumpet (con sordino)2 trombonestubaPercussion (drum kit/chimes)AccordionSynthesizerPianoHarpsichord1st and 2nd ViolinsViolasCelliand 1 solo bass.Mods, if this is sensitive information, feel free to delete my post.I stand completely corrected- silly me. I've always been quite good at picking out instruments that are playing in pieces, but I suppose John usually does use a very big ensemble. I really can't hear the strings at all, not violin or cello. And I never noticed a tuba either. Well then it is most likely just the recording of the present cue..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannhauser 101 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Yeah, having listened to it again more carefully, I can't hear the strings either, it does just seem to be that small ensemble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Yesterday I rewatched "Tintin"!And I gotta say, the "Pursuit of the Falcon" is clearly the highlight scorewise. I don't think this cue is edited even once, and I am pretty sure the music was recorded first, and the editor cut the scene accordingly (that's what JW was talking about in the featurette!). The grand statement of Tintin's theme is so fantastic, it sends shivers of excitement down my back whenever I watch that scene...The trumpet starts only when Tintin gets a firm grip on the handlebar, you see. And as he is briefly thrown into the air before he grabs the lampshade (I think that's a lampshade) there is this whooooooosh heard! Oh, and the falcon!!! Man, JW catches and accompanies every movement of the wings, apparently! I imagine the floutist was pretty much out of breath afterwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 The film version of the cue has been edited in several places, mostly microedits plus the ending differs from the album version as they had to lengthen it for the tense dialogue before Tintin dives into the water. Here in the film there is a different version of Tintin's theme, a tad more hopeful version than the dire one on the album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Here in the film there is a different version of Tintin's theme, a tad more hopeful version than the dire one on the album.How do they differ?I didn't think it was the same performance, but I didn't notice any difference in orchestration... you sure about what you are saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I just checked and the album version crescendoes much more dramatically in the final rendition of Tintin's theme than the film version. So there are small changes here and there in the cue. At first I too thought that the whole piece was in the film as it is on the OST until I listened more closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 But the take on the FYC is the same as on the OST. And officially the FYC can only use what was in the film. So I can only conclude that you are wrong! Wrongidy wrong wong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 But the take on the FYC is the same as on the OST. And officially the FYC can only use what was in the film.So I can only conclude that you are wrong! Wrongidy wrong wong!You love to say that word, wrong, don't you? I have seen you shouting it in many other threads lately. Are you going through a phase or something? But no the take is not the same as on the OST. And even if it is, it contains inserts which are clearly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I just checked and the album version crescendoes much more dramatically in the final rendition of Tintin's theme than the film version.You mean when Tintin rides up his bike up that ramp, about to jump off in pursuit of the falcon? Yes, in the movie that moment lasts slightly longer, I think. The cymbal clashes twice, instead of only once, for instance. But I don't notice any difference in the grand statement of Tintin's theme as he goes sliding down that cable holding onto the handlebar!So there are small changes here and there in the cue. At first I too thought that the whole piece was in the film as it is on the OST until I listened more closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 You love to say that word, wrong, don't you? I have seen you shouting it in many other threads lately. Are you going through a phase or something? you are in error about that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 The FYC version, the film version, has a couple of sections where the music is looped a bit and contains a few extra notes not on the OST but the final rendition of Tintin's theme, just as he dives into the water to save Snowy and Haddock is also different than on the OST album.On the featurette topic, isn't it the original take on the Sir Francis and the Unicorn cues that we hear as we see JW conducting the orchestra and see the sea battle on screen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fommes 153 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 You love to say that word, wrong, don't you? I have seen you shouting it in many other threads lately. Are you going through a phase or something? you are in error about that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,372 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 But the take on the FYC is the same as on the OST. And officially the FYC can only use what was in the film.So I can only conclude that you are wrong! Wrongidy wrong wong!See here:http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21143&view=findpost&p=777410 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 On the featurette topic, isn't it the original take on the Sir Francis and the Unicorn cues that we hear as we see JW conducting the orchestra and see the sea battle on screen?No, that's 1m21b Old Enemies Meet. It's heard during the crane fight. It was composed for the film in a different fase, with the sea battle mixed with visions of the crane fight. (For example it cuts from "Sir Francis! ------- Rackham!" to "Sakharine Jumps").Oddly the music from 1m21b with the synch point "Sakharin Jumps" ("sinister") also plays in the final cut of the film, in the crane fight, when he jumps. I think they dropped the idea of the mixed fights and choose to use 1m21b for the crane fight.The music is at the right place in the featurette.Here's a rough try at mimicking the original version of the scene.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9ji6hkXg7c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,207 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 And I gotta say, the "Pursuit of the Falcon" is clearly the highlight scorewise. I don't think this cue is edited even once, and I am pretty sure the music was recorded first, and the editor cut the scene accordingly (that's what JW was talking about in the featurette!).That's an easy claim to make, considering the main portion of that sequence had no cuts at all, as far as I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 But the take on the FYC is the same as on the OST. And officially the FYC can only use what was in the film.So I can only conclude that you are wrong! Wrongidy wrong wong!See here:http://www.jwfan.com...ndpost&p=777410WOW! That's an easy claim to make, considering the main portion of that sequence had no cuts at all, as far as I recall. Huh?The FYC version, the film version, has a couple of sections where the music is looped a bit and contains a few extra notes not on the OST but the final rendition of Tintin's theme, just as he dives into the water to save Snowy and Haddock is also different than on the OST album.Extra notes... It's hard to take such claims seriously when you don't back them up with time stamps of examples! What extra notes? Unless you mean brief loops?Also, I was talking primarily of the grandest statement of Tintin's theme, when he goes gliding down on the motorcycle handlebar! I don't think that moment contains any loops, microedits, or "extra notes," either in the movie or on the OS album! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I know what you were talking about. And I was saying that the film version of the whole sequence is different, be it loops, a few extra notes here and there and the ending of the piece is clearly different. And Jason explains all in his break-down of the FYC album (the link to that thread which you have quoted above) anyway, time stamps and all. If you have access to the FYC track you can listen to it and compare it yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I know what you were talking about. And I was saying that the film version of the whole sequence is different, be it loops, a few extra notes here and there and the ending of the piece is clearly different. And Jason explains all in his break-down of the FYC album (the link to that thread which you have quoted above) anyway, time stamps and all. If you have access to the FYC track you can listen to it and compare it yourself.Well, Jason doesn't say anything about "extra notes." Only something about a "weird overlay"...Anyway, I will watch it again tonight. But I've seen that one scene about half a dozen times already (I had to go back again and again! ), and I am positive, the music is the same! Probably a different performance, but the music is the same, woodwind flourishes, cymbal clashes, and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 You can also read how Jason marks unreleased in couple of sections in the cue, a few seconds but still. This is a good example of how the small details and few minute differences can be lost in the excitement of the scene itself. You just can't hear them under the sound effects or just the general excitement. I remember noticing the changed ending of Tintin diving into the harbour being noticeably different when I saw the film the second time. On the album, as I said before, the crescendo of Tintin's theme is grander and more dire sounding than in the finished film. Jason marks this section as either UNRELEASED or tracked music, not sure. If it is tracked it is not a Tintin's theme rendition that can be found on the OST. It could also a quick insert to make the moment more light and heroic and not so weightily dramatic as it is on the OST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 On the featurette topic, isn't it the original take on the Sir Francis and the Unicorn cues that we hear as we see JW conducting the orchestra and see the sea battle on screen?No, that's 1m21b Old Enemies Meet. It's heard during the crane fight. It was composed for the film in a different fase, with the sea battle mixed with visions of the crane fight. (For example it cuts from "Sir Francis! ------- Rackham!" to "Sakharine Jumps").Oddly the music from 1m21b with the synch point "Sakharin Jumps" ("sinister") also plays in the final cut of the film, in the crane fight, when he jumps. I think they dropped the idea of the mixed fights and choose to use 1m21b for the crane fight.Are you sure about this? It looks like non-sensical to me... why they should have put flash-forwards of the big final climactic fight early on?And more importantly, where did you find the full "Old Enemies Meet"?? There are snippets in your video that were not included in the FYC promo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 You can also read how Jason marks unreleased in couple of sections in the cue, a few seconds but still. This is a good example of how the small details and few minute differences can be lost in the excitement of the scene itself. You just can't hear them under the sound effects or just the general excitement. I remember noticing the changed ending of Tintin diving into the harbour being noticeably different when I saw the film the second time. On the album, as I said before, the crescendo of Tintin's theme is grander and more dire sounding than in the finished film. Jason marks this section as either UNRELEASED or tracked music, not sure. If it is tracked it is not a Tintin's theme rendition that can be found on the OST. It could also a quick insert to make the moment more light and heroic and not so weightily dramatic as it is on the OST.Hmmm, are we talking about the same scene here? I am talking about the grandest statement of Tintin's theme, not the one when he jumps into the harbor at the end...Also, is there a difference in orchestration or instrumentation that you noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 The grand statement of Tintin's theme is the same. The one you have been talking about. I don't remember any difference in that section.As I said I was talking about the scene as a whole, not just the inarguably most spine-tingling rendition of the theme when Tintin is doing is aerial acrobatics with the motorcycle and the lantern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,615 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 The grand statement of Tintin's theme is the same. The one you have been talking about. I don't remember any difference in that section.Ah OK! Great, because this is probably my favorite section of the entire score (and maybe even of the whole movie)! As I said I was talking about the scene as a whole, not just the inarguably most spine-tingling rendition of the theme when Tintin is doing is aerial acrobatics with the motorcycle and the lantern. Yes. There are several micro-edits and little loops here and there, but as a whole I think this has remained surprisingly cohesive and intact. When I listened to this track on the OS album, I was afraid that it might be chopped into pieces, but that's not the case. And thank God for that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 On the featurette topic, isn't it the original take on the Sir Francis and the Unicorn cues that we hear as we see JW conducting the orchestra and see the sea battle on screen?No, that's 1m21b Old Enemies Meet. It's heard during the crane fight. It was composed for the film in a different fase, with the sea battle mixed with visions of the crane fight. (For example it cuts from "Sir Francis! ------- Rackham!" to "Sakharine Jumps").Oddly the music from 1m21b with the synch point "Sakharin Jumps" ("sinister") also plays in the final cut of the film, in the crane fight, when he jumps. I think they dropped the idea of the mixed fights and choose to use 1m21b for the crane fight.Are you sure about this? It looks like non-sensical to me... why they should have put flash-forwards of the big final climactic fight early on?And more importantly, where did you find the full "Old Enemies Meet"?? There are snippets in your video that were not included in the FYC promo...The UK website.I'm pretty much 100% sure about it.They're visions from Haddock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,372 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I think you're wrong. That fact that Williams wrote "Saccarin Jumps" on his sketch score doesn't imply that there was going to be a flash-forward to the crane fight. He probably meant to write "Rackham jumps" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 But there's "Tin" all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,372 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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