Max Steiner Award 2013: James Horner in Vienna

[Henry Sítrónu 494]

Horner was very touched on thursday (pre-concert), too. He sad a few things and was very, very thankful. I remember him saying "I never do concerts. I'm very private, I'm very shy. I do my job, go home at night. I rarely watch the movies in the cinema."

[crocodile 8,012]

Yes, apparently he lives somewhere on the outskirts of Los Angeles and that it is a very quiet place with minimal technology and no film stuff of any sort.

Karol

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

James Horner received the Max-Steiner-Award in Vienna last night. Has anyone been there, beside me? ;-) I can't believe I couldn't find any thread about that here...

You didn't look well enough then.

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=22797

[chuck 154]

Jeesh... Horner should get out of his shell and start conducting his goddamn concerts!!!

[chuck 154]

Some videos already popped up on YT:

[Incanus 5,714]

That Avatar suite was bloody fantastic!

And thank you for your report Karol. You are starting to feel like our resident film music correspondent going on these European tours.

[publicist 4,643]

Sadly the resolution is not good...so Horner's girlie tears are not to be seen ( ). All things considered, it was great with the usual nuisance that a fan never will like the programme that is made for the casual concertgoer (AVATAR and TITANIC the biggest pieces of the evening...barf) but it was a well-organized event that only once provoked raised eyebrows - when the Viennese mayor 'diplomatically' stated that Horner's father and Max Reinhardt left Austria in 1936 because they were out to discover the new world...run for their lives in fear of being gassed by a fascist mob is more like it - but then, an evening that has its big finale to the tune of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN is kind of politic-proof.

Thanks for the great meeting before the concert (with Thor being the master of ceremonies), though i didn't really socialize with anyone besides Karol, Marian and Markus who will get it dirty, Goldsmith-wise (it sure is comedy central when somebody introduces himself as 'I'm lightswordmaster_han_85' or similar).

[Incanus 5,714]

It seems a full 2h+ concert with a wider variety of Horner would have been perhaps more satisfying. But hey you have to think of the wider audience.

[crocodile 8,012]

It's just a pity and a great irony that he's known for writing long coherent pieces, most suitable for concert presentation, and you end up with medleys.

I forgot to mention (initially) they also played The Ludlows from Legends of the Fall, which was actually quite lovely (given that I can't endure this album).

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

It seems a full 2h+ concert with a wider variety of Horner would have been perhaps more satisfying. But hey you have to think of the wider audience.

Given the big applause after the truly awful pop rendition of SOMEWHERE OUT THERE, they probably rightly estimated the taste of the audience-at-large. And Karol, don't forget that they kind of castrated Horner's big schmaltz hurrahs, since BRAVEHEART and LEGENDS OF THE FALL were reduced to 3-minute pieces missed the big moments only we know from the albums. BRAVEHEART end title just edited out the big surge of the love theme and only did the first and last minutes of the piece.

[crocodile 8,012]

Yeah, I know. It's weird that Horner chose to represent Braveheart with not a single statement of his two main themes...

Karol

[Melange 446]

Jeesh... Horner should get out of his shell and start conducting his goddamn concerts!!!

[chuck 154]

When it farts...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I worship the Flame now! The Flame is my god!

[Melange 446]

I worship the Flame now! The Flame is my god!

[chuck 154]

[publicist 4,643]

PS: Horner insinuated that he might put an end to his film scoring career due to ongoing frustrations with current Hollywood. Maybe he will write concert music now.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

He actually is writing a concerto. Thor will have the details when he publishes his interview.

Some short comments:

I was strangely left rather cold by the concert this year. It was fine, sure enough, but it could have been so much better. Partly it might be that I'm not the biggest Horner fan. I love plenty of his stuff, mostly from the early-to-middle part of his career, but there wasn't too much of that. Then there's the usual tinkering with the suites - not quite as bad this year as it has already been, but the edits were still strange. For Goldsmith's Voyager theme, they replaced the reprise with a repetition of the first part (sans string counterpoint). For Horner's Wrath of Khan end titles, they took out the Spock theme, turning the whole cue into an endless repeat of the main theme. Also, David Newman seems to much of a studio conductor rather than a concert hall conductor. A friend complained about that last year, but I didn't really notice it back then (though he says it was worse). This year, I had the strong feeling that he simply doesn't care (or know) about orchestral dynamics and leaves that part up to the recordist when doing a recording. In the Konzerthaus, it lead to many main lines and themes being utterly buried in the orchestration. Axelrod and the great Mauceri were better. And ultimately, I feel the selection of pieces is still becoming increasingly shallow for my tastes. But nice it was, sure.

Biggest faux pas of the concert: At the beginning of the Horner part (during Khan, I believe), they showed a reverse chronological list of Horner's film titles on the screen... starting with Romeo and Juliet).

Biggest missed opportunity at the symposium: Horner's talk with Robert Townson was right before the fake scoring session, so they were seated on a recording stage with instruments and recording equipment. Townson's first question was about how Horner came up with a specific theme or something (I don't recall the details). Horner looked around and asked if there was a piano somewhere. There wasn't.

My photos of the symposium can be found here. Some shots of Horner from Thor's interview to follow soon.

[gkgyver 1,645]

PS: Horner insinuated that he might put an end to his film scoring career due to ongoing frustrations with current Hollywood. Maybe he will write concert music now.

Romeo and Juliet must have been one of the last straws that break the camel's back.

I don't condone Horner's constant plagiarising, but he's one of the few remaining bright spots in Hollywood.

[APBez 11]

It was an enjoyable concert. In the first part they played some music from s-f films: A short piece from Metropolis by Godfried Huppertz. We got to hear a Star Trek medley, consisting of snippets of different scores: Alexander Courage's theme with chorus, a snippet of Goldsmith's Enterprise cue and Voyager theme, Rosenman, Eidelman and they ended on the very end of Giacchino's end credits (the order is probably a bit off). Then they played Mychael Nyman's Gattaca and John Williams' soprano-led Where Dreams Are Born from A.I. (exactly the same as the album piece), which has been performed apparently for the very first time. Ildikó Raimondi's rendidtion was solid, but not exactly spectacular (probably a bit too strong). And the first part ended with the slightly abbreviated end credits from David Arnold's Independence Day. It lasted less than an hour. I liked it, but there was something missing - probably because so many of those pieces were quite short and it seemed slightly all over the place.

The second part was much longer (probably around 90 minutes and dedicated exclusively to Horner. They opened with his brilliant Universal fanfare, which I might even prefer to Goldsmith's, and then played a suite from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which was basically the Courage material from the overture, seguing directly into the end credit material with the omission of Spock theme, sadly. Next, a piece was a from Braveheart which, at least partially, was taken from end credits (with solos on uillean pipes).

A slightly longer medley of themes presented the themes from Willow (main theme), A Beautiful Mind, Apollo 13, The Mask of Zorro and The Rocketeer (fittingly ending on a rousing hornerian climax from that very score). Again, good stuff, but all the segments were really brief. The last short standalone film score piece of the evening was The Ludlows from Legends of the Fall.

What followed were two centrepieces of the evening - the longer suites from both Avatar and Titanic. The first one was actually very effective, using penny whistle (I thin) and flute solos, some interesting live percussion effects and chorus. I must be quite a challenge to perform this music live, given that the actual score had endless layers of synthetic effects and stuff like that. But it worked. They performed some bits from Jake's Flight, The Bioluminescence of the Night, Scorched Earth (just that Willow-like fanfare) and some passages from War (including that cool fanfare near the start which was recorded originally exclusively for the album). And then Titanic, which seems to be a variation on some of the suites performed before - Sissel's vocals performed by opera soprano (a very different kind of performance), Southampton segment with the actual chorus (sounds much better, trust me) and then it ended with what can be heard in the final suite on Back to Titanic album with two themes played contrapuntally (or very similar to that piece, anyway).

At that point Horner was to pick up the Max Steiner award and when he was approaching the scene, they were playing the Spider-Man theme. And here is a major disappointment - it was probably the only opportunity to hear it without all the synths and modern percussion. But you couldn't hear it, because the audience were clapping all the way through. What I can say, though, is that it is actually a very strong tune indeed, certainly among the best modern superhero themes (if not THE best).

Anyway, Horner is getting the award and gets emotional. Crying almost. And they call him "the finest contemporary composer" (I'm not sure I heard "one of") and "Vienna's son" (apparently hid dad is from there). And the endless applause. At this point it turned into too much of a drama and schmaltz. But then again, this show is called Hollywood in Vienna so maybe that's the point. In any case, Horner indeed seems to be a very quiet and shy person. But, from my experiences with meeting other musicians, they mostly all are.

Two of Horner's songs were also performed: one from An American Tale and one from Land Before Time (which was the final piece performed that evening). Both were extremely cheesy, especially the latter where the singer Deborax Cox was walking in between the aisles and at one point holding the composer by hand... You get the idea.

While it's easy to be cynical about Horner and his place among film music giants, especially with all the cheesy awarding ceremony, it realized how big of a part he played in formation of my film music tastes. There's no denying he's got quite an output and the concert clearly showed that he could be just as successful in a concert hall as Williams or Goldsmith. At least in terms of broad audiences' appeal.

All in all, an enjoyable evening. The playing was certainly competent and the musicians managed to convey that Hollywood swagger, which is not that obvious to achieve by a concert orchestra (not typically, anyway). Finally, I got to meet some fellow JWFans in person - Marian, ChrisAfonso, publicist. And some other people - Tim Burden (just briefly) and Thor (whom I will see again on Monday). Which was quite surreal, but really nice.

Pity there was no chance to get any autographs or pictures. A bummer, to be sure...

Oh and there is another thread dedicated to this topic, lemoncurd. You can find it here.

EDIT: I just read an audio stream of the concert will be available to listen from tomorrow.

Karol

Listening now to the 'live' broadcast of the concert but do we know if it will be made available as a stream beyond tonight?

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

APBez

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Biggest missed opportunity at the symposium: Horner's talk with Robert Townson was right before the fake scoring session, so they were seated on a recording stage with instruments and recording equipment. Townson's first question was about how Horner came up with a specific theme or something (I don't recall the details). Horner looked around and asked if there was a piano somewhere. There wasn't.

I believe they were talking about "A Beautiful Mind", and Horner wanted to demonstrate how it was less about a theme than about constantly shifting harmonic centers without any one firm base, comparing them (unsurprisingly, knowing the track titles) to a kaleidoscope. And I concur, the organization team absolutely has to have it on their mental checklist to always keep a piano ready in the future.

Then again, any prior preparation for demonstrations or the like where hindered by the fact that, unlike Bramson, who had prepared his own talk, Horner's session was more of an interview/discussion, the topic plan of which was obviously planned by the moderators, not by him. This went to the point of him being somewhat surprised by some topic shifts on the program, remarking that he found it funny that after him rambling on about his increasing dissatisfaction with blockbusters and wanting to work on smaller, more intimate projects, they insisted on showing a clip from Avatar, obviously to get on with their pre-planned list of topics about the big scores. But then he really opened up towards the end, getting into an entertaining somewhat cynical mood of telling some anecdotes.

Continuing irritations about his compositional habits notwithstanding, my opinion of his character really improved a lot this week.

[crocodile 8,012]

Listening now to the 'live' broadcast of the concert but do we know if it will be made available as a stream beyond tonight?

Thanks for any help anyone can offer.

APBez

I think it will be available for a week. Someone better record this.

Karol

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I believe they were talking about "A Beautiful Mind", and Horner wanted to demonstrate how it was less about a theme than about constantly shifting harmonic centers without any one firm base, comparing them (unsurprisingly, knowing the track titles) to a kaleidoscope.

"Do you know what a kaleidoscope is?"

And I concur, the organization team absolutely has to have it on their mental checklist to always keep a piano ready in the future.

Schifrin sitting down at the piano during a rehearsal break to play four handed jazz improvisations was one of the (inofficial) highlights of last year's event.

Continuing irritations about his compositional habits notwithstanding, my opinion of his character really improved a lot this week.

My opinion on him as a composer is unchanged (some great stuff, mostly uninteresting stuff since the mid 90s or so, too many ripoffs), but my opinion of him as a person is much better now.

Horner interview pics are now up in my Flickr set by the way.

[crocodile 8,012]

Great pics. Thanks for sharing, Marian!

Karol - listening to the concert

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

By the way, Karol, let me repeat my recommendation: Aaron J. Kernis' Symphony in Waves. There's only one cue of it on YouTube it seems, and that's not the one that sounds like Davis' Matrix, but the "rippling" lines in Davis' scores are pretty much straight out of the first movement. Cool stuff.

[crocodile 8,012]

It's on Spotify, though.

And yes, there is something that sounds like his minimalism-like music in The Matrix.

But you have to admit it also sounds like Adams (especially the sequels):

My only conclusion, that is something Davis also stated, is that he wanted to smuggle modern concert music into the blockbusters. He probably drew from many sources.

Karol

[TownerFan 4,983]

Thank you for your reports and pictures, guys. Looks like you had plenty of fun!

Listening to the concert stream now.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

But you have to admit it also sounds like Adams (especially the sequels):

Certainly, including Short Ride in a Fast Machine. And touches of Glass in the first score.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

By the way, Karol, let me repeat my recommendation: Aaron J. Kernis' Symphony in Waves. There's only one cue of it on YouTube it seems, and that's not the one that sounds like Davis' Matrix, but the "rippling" lines in Davis' scores are pretty much straight out of the first movement. Cool stuff.

Great recommendation. Personally I prefer Kernis to Adams. I think he would make a wonderful film composer, since his compositions already draw so much from some kind of visual image.

Talking about Davis, how do feel about the huge thumbprints he gave on so many of Horner's 90s scores? It makes me question how detailed Horner's sketches are. Maybe it was more of a question of musical osmosis - Davis introducing Horner to works by contemporary American composers like Adams, Kernis, Corigliano, Druckman and Davis's own concert music.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

There's a lot of Horner even in the first Matrix score, and Revolutions sounds more like Horner to me than anything else, but I've always assumed it was the other way - Davis picking up this stuff from Horner when he was doing his orchestrations.

[TownerFan 4,983]

PS: Horner insinuated that he might put an end to his film scoring career due to ongoing frustrations with current Hollywood. Maybe he will write concert music now.

It's certainly sad for the film music fan, but it's completely understandable from his part. It reminds me the same disillusioned bitterness John Barry had in the last part of his career, who indeed turned more to concert music and concept album-like projects.

I'm sure there will be directors and producers who will certainly ask for James Horner in the future, but it's a fact that his kind of approach is largely not as "in demand" as it was a few years ago. It's kind of frightening to see that one of the most successful film composer in Hollywood's history is being put apart from the industry. Anyway, it happened to many greats of the past, like Herrmann.

As bitter as it sounds, this should remind us how difficult and hard is staying afloat successfully (or even staying afloat at all) in the Hollywood environment, which can devour people's creativity and let them completely soaked up. In this sense, it makes the career arc of someone like Williams and Goldsmith even more impressive, who both have been able to stay afloat successfully and continuously for a very long stretch of time.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I always thought Horner's music changed once Davis became his main orchestrator. More pianistic, motoric, with certain characteristic effects (the gradual rhythmic diminution on snare of gong with triangle beater crescendoing to a cut-off - triplet quarter notes, two eight notes and fourth sixteenths etc., bowed Styrofoam cup, 'freak outs' with cluster chimes or piano elbow clusters, snap pizzicati clusters, anvil hits). I see Davis's influence on Horner as a more extreme version of Henry Brant's on Alex North.

BTW, does the 3rd movement of Symphony of Waves remind anyone else of North?

[crocodile 8,012]

PS: Horner insinuated that he might put an end to his film scoring career due to ongoing frustrations with current Hollywood. Maybe he will write concert music now.

Romeo and Juliet must have been one of the last straws that break the camel's back.

I don't condone Horner's constant plagiarising, but he's one of the few remaining bright spots in Hollywood.

There are still Avatar sequels, all three of them. Who knows if Horner still wants to do those...

I always thought Horner's music changed once Davis became his main orchestrator. More pianistic, motoric, with certain characteristic effects (the gradual rhythmic diminution on snare of gong with triangle beater crescendoing to a cut-off - triplet quarter notes, two eight notes and fourth sixteenths etc., bowed Styrofoam cup, 'freak outs' with cluster chimes or piano elbow clusters, snap pizzicati clusters, anvil hits). I see Davis's influence on Horner as a more extreme version of Henry Brant's on Alex North.

BTW, does the 3rd movement of Symphony of Waves remind anyone else of North?

Interesting.

Karol

[crocodile 8,012]

Oh Marian, I just read a report from the meeting with Don Davis (in Polish) and yes, John Adams' piece I posted was a template for his scores (not sure if they didn't even temp track it with that, can't remember). And some Steve Reich as well. I think Neimoidian recorded the conversation - it might be worth to ask him for more information.

On a side note, the hallway shootout was also supposed to be scored with electronic music, but it never got past demo stage.

Karol

[SF1_freeze 131]

I really enjoyed the concert and finally was able to meet fellow filmmusic enthusiasts and also some jwfan members like publicist, Karol, Marian, Markus and Thor. Again big thanks to Thor for organizing this gettogether and to Marian for arranging the location.

I agree with Marian that there definetly was a problem with the orchestral dynamics that lead to many main lines and themes being buried within the orchestration. I am glad they did the medleys because otherwise we would have had even less variety in the short time a concert takes. Of course i would have loved to hear longer developed pieces of Horners older scores like Willows, Aliens, Braveheart or Star Trek II but the compromise just had to be taken in such a mainstream event.

[crocodile 8,012]

As you say, for what they were aiming for, it's actually pretty successful presentation. I was expecting less, to be honest.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

As you say, for what they were aiming for, it's actually pretty successful presentation. I was expecting less, to be honest.

Karol

Remember, a pessimist will never be disappointed.

[crocodile 8,012]

It's pretty embarrassing, but my eyes got watery at certain points. Not so much because of the quality of writing and/or playing, but all the memories you associate with those works. It's a large chunk of my childhood, this music. Sad, I know.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

It's pretty embarrassing, but my eyes got watery at certain points. Not so much because of the quality of writing and/or playing, but all the memories you associate with those works. It's a large chunk of my childhood, this music. Sad, I know.

Karol

I think it is quite natural nostalgia. And always better reaction to music than apathy or anger.

[Jay 37,364]

Thanks for the write-ups, karol and lemon curd!!

Also: Merged the two threads together

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

On 10/7/2013 at 6:01 AM, crocodile said:

Oh Marian, I just read a report from the meeting with Don Davis (in Polish) and yes, John Adams' piece I posted was a template for his scores (not sure if they didn't even temp track it with that, can't remember). And some Steve Reich as well. I think Neimoidian recorded the conversation - it might be worth to ask him for more information.

On a side note, the hallway shootout was also supposed to be scored with electronic music, but it never got past demo stage.

Karol

The Wachowskis must be fans of minimalism, particularly of Adams, since the composers for Cloud Atlas mentioned him being on the brain while writing that score as well.

[chuck 154]

Mine's Braveheart & The Mask if Zorro; first awareness of film scores are b-e-a-utiful.

[Thor 7,504]

Pics from the event here:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151916416816278.1073741831.530696277&type=1&l=3b03991f26

[Incanus 5,714]

Thank you for sharing those photos Thor!

[chuck 154]

Thor-rific!

[Thor 7,504]

As I mentioned in the other thread, my Horner interview/special is now up:

http://celluloidtunes.no/celluloid-tunes-08-james-horner-in-vienna-2nd-international-edition/

[ChrisAfonso 186]

The concert just ran on Austrian tv, and you could actually hear the Spider-man theme (playing as Horner was called to the stage) quite well (which, as several people pointed out, was totally drowned out by the applause in the hall, so much so that I didn't even notice it). Hope to get a recording of the broadcast in the coming days.

[publicist 4,643]

As I mentioned in the other thread, my Horner interview/special is now up:

http://celluloidtunes.no/celluloid-tunes-08-james-horner-in-vienna-2nd-international-edition/

Thanks for the interviews. Though Horner's sometimes very erratic way of answering would drive me crazy..(also good to know that he still instantly forgets all music he has ever written, but then can remember all the details about BOY IN THE STRIPED PAJAMA) .

[Incanus 5,714]

As I mentioned in the other thread, my Horner interview/special is now up:

http://celluloidtunes.no/celluloid-tunes-08-james-horner-in-vienna-2nd-international-edition/

Thanks for the interviews. Though Horner's sometimes very erratic way of answering would drive me crazy..(also good to know that he still instantly forgets all music he has ever written, but then can remember all the details about BOY IN THE STRIPED PAJAMA) .

Obviously his memory pushes things like danger motif and Sons of Scotland theme back to surface every now and then.

[publicist 4,643]

There must be some medication for that. His throwaway line about Joe Dante's lack of a career after Corman (and possibly Gremlins) has the old swagger from the TROY interview. Mind you, he's not entirely wrong but i doubt he would be flattered if someone dismissed his output prior to TITANIC like that.