Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[Incanus 5,721]

Ok, so Doug reckons the suite is original but it wasn't in place when he saw the film in October.

So Ironfoot might be an earlier alternate then?

[Bilbo 3,709]

Ok, so Doug reckons the suite is original but it wasn't in place when he saw the film in October.

So Ironfoot might be an earlier alternate then?

I dunno tbh.

When will other people see this by the way? Surely someone will see it before I see it again?

[Incanus 5,721]

As I said it opens here on Wednesday so I'll probably see it on Thursday or Friday. You have to be our BotFa film expert for the time being.

[Bilbo 3,709]

As I said it opens here on Wednesday so I'll probably see it on Thursday or Friday. You have to be our BotFa film expert for the time being.

I'll be seeing it again Friday when it goes on general release (and again on Saturday). I'm happy to answer all questions you have but I wish I'd heard the OST more times before seeing the film last night I mean, I only found out yesterday at 1:30 that I was going. Otherwise I'd have have taken questions on here so I could listen out for stuff!

[Barnald 365]

I just realized that there is a quasi-Hobbit material in Ironfoot. Shore spins a playful and quick variation on the Shire theme in the original version of the An Unexpected Party track (at around 2:24-) in AUJ (the film version was revised), which is reprised in a 4:00 into Ironfoot, now sombre and slow. Interesting little nod to the Hobbit music in this thematic suite.

Is that not the same theme heard about 3:30 in The Darkest Hour? I thought it was, but I'm probably wrong. Could still be related to Bilbo nevertheless.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,721]

I just realized that there is a quasi-Hobbit material in Ironfoot. Shore spins a playful and quick variation on the Shire theme in the original version of the An Unexpected Party track (at around 2:24-) in AUJ (the film version was revised), which is reprised in a 4:00 into Ironfoot, now sombre and slow. Interesting little nod to the Hobbit music in this thematic suite.

Is that not the same theme heard about 3:30 in The Darkest Hour? I thought it was, but I'm probably wrong. Could still be related to Bilbo nevertheless.

Hmmm that passage sounds more like related to Thorin and the dwarves perhaps? It is similar to the music in AUJ when Thorin is wounded after his charge and the dwarves are reacting in slow motion to Azog pummeling him about. And that I always thought sounded like temp tracked with the sombre music for the retreat from TTT when Aragorn is retreating back to the Hornburg.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,646]

Ok, so Doug reckons the suite is original but it wasn't in place when he saw the film in October.

Wait, Doug doesn't know something about a piece IN the film? Quick, mark the calendar!

Although, if he doesn't know it, it's probably an edit.

[Bilbo 3,709]

I just realized that there is a quasi-Hobbit material in Ironfoot. Shore spins a playful and quick variation on the Shire theme in the original version of the An Unexpected Party track (at around 2:24-) in AUJ (the film version was revised), which is reprised in a 4:00 into Ironfoot, now sombre and slow. Interesting little nod to the Hobbit music in this thematic suite.

Is that not the same theme heard about 3:30 in The Darkest Hour? I thought it was, but I'm probably wrong. Could still be related to Bilbo nevertheless.

Hmmm that passage sounds more like related to Thorin and the dwarves perhaps? It is similar to the music in AUJ when Thorin is wounded after his charge and the dwarves are reacting in slow motion to Azog pummeling him about. And that I always thought sounded like temp tracked with the sombre music for the Retreat from TTT when Aragorn is retreating back to the Hornburg.

There's a bit where the Ocrs break into Dale and the people of Laketown make a retreat. Chronology wise I think it lines up in such a way so that that could be what it underscores.

Ok, so Doug reckons the suite is original but it wasn't in place when he saw the film in October.

Wait, Doug doesn't know something about a piece IN the film? Quick, mark the calendar!

Although, if he doesn't know it, it's probably an edit.

He said "I believe it's an original suite, but the credits weren't in place when I last saw it. (Still used DOS temp credits.)"

[Incanus 5,721]

When will other people see this by the way? Surely someone will see it before I see it again?

Seeing it on Wednesday (or possibly Tuesday).

It is similar to the music in AUJ when Thorin is wounded after his charge and the dwarves are reacting in slow motion to Azog pummeling him about.

Don't know why, but the way you phrased that sentence made me laugh.

Well that is what happens. It is pretty silly!

[Bilbo 3,709]

I guess I should just have bought a physical copy of the Special Edition yesterday

[Crimson Nagus 43]

So, if we want to mix Dragon Sickness and Thrain into DOS, where would they go?

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=1067130

Thank you.

[KK 3,307]

I just realized that there is a quasi-Hobbit material in Ironfoot. Shore spins a playful and quick variation on the Shire theme in the original version of the An Unexpected Party track (at around 2:24-) in AUJ (the film version was revised), which is reprised in a 4:00 into Ironfoot, now sombre and slow. Interesting little nod to the Hobbit music in this thematic suite.

Is that not the same theme heard about 3:30 in The Darkest Hour? I thought it was, but I'm probably wrong. Could still be related to Bilbo nevertheless.

Hmmm that passage sounds more like related to Thorin and the dwarves perhaps? It is similar to the music in AUJ when Thorin is wounded after his charge and the dwarves are reacting in slow motion to Azog pummeling him about. And that I always thought sounded like temp tracked with the sombre music for the Retreat from TTT when Aragorn is retreating back to the Hornburg.

Nah, the moment in The Darkest Hour is not an allusion to the Thorin vs. Azog battle. I think it has more to do with the Laketown folk, or it could just be a "loss theme" in itself.

And yes! I noticed that! It's the Rural Setting of the Shire theme, but in retrogrades, and much more slowed down here in comparison to AUJ. Interesting...

It's the bit AFTER that that sounds like what you hear in "The Darkest Hour" Barnald.

[Barnald 365]

Ah I was probably confusing the two. I'll give it another listen.

[Jay 37,386]

Film doesn't even open in the US for another 11 days...

[Incanus 5,721]

I just realized that there is a quasi-Hobbit material in Ironfoot. Shore spins a playful and quick variation on the Shire theme in the original version of the An Unexpected Party track (at around 2:24-) in AUJ (the film version was revised), which is reprised in a 4:00 into Ironfoot, now sombre and slow. Interesting little nod to the Hobbit music in this thematic suite.

Is that not the same theme heard about 3:30 in The Darkest Hour? I thought it was, but I'm probably wrong. Could still be related to Bilbo nevertheless.

Hmmm that passage sounds more like related to Thorin and the dwarves perhaps? It is similar to the music in AUJ when Thorin is wounded after his charge and the dwarves are reacting in slow motion to Azog pummeling him about. And that I always thought sounded like temp tracked with the sombre music for the Retreat from TTT when Aragorn is retreating back to the Hornburg.

Nah, the moment in The Darkest Hour is not an allusion to the Thorin vs. Azog battle. I think it has more to do with the Laketown folk, or it could just be a "loss theme" in itself.

Sorry I meant the Entmoot Decides contains the music I meant. Starting at 1:25.

Then there seem to be a hint of the new yearning Bard theme at 3:53 in the Darkest Hour before it goes to the Lake-Town theme lament.

[KK 3,307]

Oh I agree about the temp tracking in AUJ!

But what we hear in BoFA is more original (though similarities are there), and Shore isn't trying to reference that moment in TTT. It pertains uniquely to this film alone I believe.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Film doesn't even open in the US for another 11 days...

I should have three viewings done by then. Crazy!

[Incanus 5,721]

Oh I agree about the temp tracking in AUJ!

But what we hear in BoFA is more original (though similarities are there), and Shore isn't trying to reference that moment in TTT. It pertains uniquely to this film alone.

Yeah I agree. I meant that the tone is similar. Sense of less, weariness etc.

[KK 3,307]

Film doesn't even open in the US for another 11 days...

I should have three viewings done by then. Crazy!

Same. Europe gets it a whole week before us...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I haven't even seen that yet!! So I'm still behind!

[gkgyver 1,646]

After being mad about the early review on TOR, I caved and bought a trilogy ticket ... So weak.

[KK 3,307]

Producing the CRs takes time even if they have a well working template now after LotR. Each took about a year of compiling and research according to Doug. It would be odd if he wrote book based on the current editions of the soundtrack though.

That's not what I meant. I'm sure the book will be based on the complete scores.

And yes, that's another reason why I don't believe the CRs will be released with closer release dates this time around: it takes quite some time to put them together: write the liner notes, make the artwork, etc. If Doug is working on the book simultaneously, it sure is going to take some time. If we're lucky, and if they did already start working on it, then we might get the first one in December 2015 (though I still doubt that, even if I'd like to be wrong about that), then the next two in December 2016 and 2017. But I don't think they'll be released with only 6 months of interval between them.

And though Doug mentioned he is working on the Music of the Hobbit Films it doesn't mean it is going to be ready next week, will it?

I never said that was the case, but who knows, it could be released by the end of next year! Unlike LOTR, where the talks about the book most likely happened after the trilogy was finished, it's possible that this time around, they talked about that much sooner and Doug already started working on it for quite some time now, and only now is he allowed to say that he's working on it.

Now, I highly doubt it'll be released on December 2015, but I think that's it's a possibility not to discard.

I never got those PDFs. Disappointed to know there's info in there that I've missed!

There you go:

The Fellowship Of The Ring - The Annotated Score

The Two Towers - The Annotated Score

The Return Of The King - The Annotated Score

Thanks again for the links BB. I forgot how great these pdfs were. Everyone here should really read them. Really sheds light on the kind of extended techniques Shore used.

And I love the quotes from the members of the orchestra:

“The first film I worked on with Shore was

The Yards, which I remember as if it were yesterday.

There was a lot to do and it had the most

beautiful title melody… for cor anglais! It’s always

a thrill to play someone’s composition when they

know how to write for the instrument. He has a

natural feel for what the c.a. does best. He writes

with such a lyrical quality, and in the right range

of the instrument for it to sing.”

- Sue Bohling, cor anglais soloist

This is so true! I've always loved his beautiful cor anglai parts. It's a lot like his choral writing, he just has a real knack for it.

“He’s a bit of a master, isn’t

he? There’s nothing like this, and there won’t be anything. The score was like going on a long journey, like playing one long phrase.

Howard’s writing is very clear, we know what he wants and where he wants to take it and he knows what we can do.”

“A lot of thought has gone into it.

All his music is very well written. He understands

the nature of the instruments and, from

my perspective as a cellist, he writes very, very

well. It’s all in singing registers. He understands

harmonics and things like that. He uses tone

clusters where we all play different rhythms and

they’re fascinating. It’s very interesting the way

he writes strange sequences of clusters and then

has a melody that fits in.” Concertmaster Pieter

Schoeman continues, “Howard would write the

most complex divisis. He creates a cluster of sound where all the violins start on the same note and then start dividing, spreading

into a chord and finally forming a cluster so thick you would need a chainsaw to cut through it. The Concertmaster has to organize

this kind of divisi in such a way that you have an equal numbers of violins on each note as the chord spreads. I finally worked

out a certain method, which we ended up using systematically since we needed it quite often. We still affectionately refer to this

technique as the ‘Howard Divisi.’”

Very cool stuff. And THIS is why the LPO should have played all the Middle-Earth scores. They just know Shore's writing inside out.

The aleatory in LotR and AUJ is still better performed than DoS and BoFA.

[Jay 37,386]

The aleatory in LotR and AUJ is still better performed than DoS and BoFA.

Well, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, it wasn't directed towards anyone really. Except for maybe those who still there's no difference in sound between the LPO and NZSO.

[gkgyver 1,646]

Any word yet what the digital booklet contains?

[Jay 37,386]

Why would it be any different from the first two?

[KK 3,307]

Well the second booklet did contain the notation for themes unlike the first one. I'm sure it'll be like that for this one.

[Jay 37,386]

Hmm, I forgot AUJ didn't do that.

Honestly, with the new score having so few new themes, and this being the final HS ME score, I could see the booklet being more PR fluffy type stuff maybe.

[KK 3,307]

True.

But there are a lot of new little motifs he might notate/point out?

I was just listening to "Feast of Starlight", and man, how I wish Shore continued using that opening phrase of Tauriel and Kili in BotFA.

[Incanus 5,721]

In this score the new themes are more extensions of the old ones, except for the Daín and that new bad guy theme we have dubbed Gundabad here. The new Lake-Town theme is really more of a development of Bard's leadership and perhaps relates to Dale as he is leading some of the men there and then we have the lament version of the Lake-Town theme for the casualties of the battle I would guess. Bard and His Family comes to the fore in this score after that one (unused in the film) rendition in DoS with big emotional choral versions. Erebor theme is stretched into martial readings and there is what I call "war preparations" marching music at the start of the score related to Erebor. Then there is Bilbo the Burglar that becomes a theme now. I just counted and there are even at first glance 30+ themes in play in the score (including the callbacks to Mithril and An Ancient Enemy). I am sure we have stuff to discover for months to come.

[gkgyver 1,646]

Why would it be any different from the first two?

Because Doug hinted at it?

[KK 3,307]

There is also a new trolls motif (the three note one, can be heard in The Darkest Hour).

And plenty of sub-motifs we haven't really classified yet, subtle stuff that appeared in past scores.

[Incanus 5,721]

Oh btw has it been noted that Shore inserts this strained version of Gandalf's theme in Guardians of the Three underneath e.g. the Rivendell theme? Like at 2:57 onwards in high strings counterpoint to Rivendell arpeggios and again at 3:38-4:12.

[KK 3,307]

Oh btw has it been noted that Shore inserts this strained version of Gandalf's theme in Guardians of the Three underneath e.g. the Rivendell theme? Like at 2:57 onwards in high strings counterpoint to Rivendell arpeggios and again at 3:38-4:12.

I LOVE the variation of Gandalf's theme in Guardians of Three. Absolutely beautiful!

And are those nazgul harmonies in the female registers?

Don't blame ya though, I don't think we're talking enough about that stroke of genius!

Thought it was some kind of new theme for a second there, and I was humming it as I followed it on the cue, and then BAM, it hit me.

[Incanus 5,721]

Oh btw has it been noted that Shore inserts this strained version of Gandalf's theme in Guardians of the Three underneath e.g. the Rivendell theme? Like at 2:57 onwards in high strings counterpoint to Rivendell arpeggios and again at 3:38-4:12.

I LOVE the variation of Gandalf's theme in Guardians of Three. Absolutely beautiful!

And are those nazgul harmonies in the female registers?

Don't blame ya though, I don't think we're talking enough about that stroke of genius!

Thought it was some kind of new theme for a second there, and I was humming it as I followed it on the cue, and then BAM, it hit me.

You could have been a bit more specific, the track has some other more obvious versions of Gandalf's theme.

But yeah these kind of things are very neat when you focus on some detail you have not noted before and find another little layer underneath.

[KK 3,307]

Good point...maybe that's why no one replied to it

But yes, that's what I'm enjoying most about this score. Shore once again shows just how interconnect he intends his work to be.

I'm trying to hold off on another album listen until I get through my marathon (finished ROTK recently, have to do a little write-up soon).

[Bilbo 3,709]

After being mad about the early review on TOR, I caved and bought a trilogy ticket ... So weak.

I think that guy was far too harsh on the film. If you're going to let a bit of OTT Legolas action ruin the film for you then you might as well not bother with it.

The film is worth it for the score and the performances from Armitage and Freeman.

[Barnald 365]

So has anyone got their physical copy of the OST yet? Mine is scheduled to arrive from Amazon tomorrow.

[Jay 37,386]

Mine will be on my doorstop Tuesday.

[Bilbo 3,709]

Mine will be on my doorstop Tuesday.

Same. I regret pre-ordering on Amazon though. I should just have picked it up in town on Friday.

I think Sons of Durin is my favourite cue from all 3 scores.

[Incanus 5,721]

I'll pick up my copy from the store tomorrow. I pre-ordered so they will have one copy reserved for me.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,646]

I've never picked up a soundtrack I wanted in a store, on the actual release date.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,020]

Is it me or does this album seems to be micro-edited a lot?

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,020]

Well, perhaps you're right.

Anyway, it seems a tad... brief, this Special Edition album. I bet there is a lot more out there.

Karol