Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Also, the Company theme isnt as much a part of the fabric of the score as the Fellowship Theme is. Shore uses it, and uses it quite well, but often in obvious, "blatant" statements rather then subtly weaving it throughout the score.

It sound just slightly less as "his" theme then the Fellowship Theme.

[gkgyver 1,646]

The Fellowship theme was fully formed, like 80 minutes into the first film. Does it make that much of a difference?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,365]

It does in Moon Runes!

Even the short snippet of Breaking in AUJ felt wrong!

Huh?

[gkgyver 1,646]

Also, the Company theme isnt as much a part of the fabric of the score as the Fellowship Theme is. Shore uses it, and uses it quite well, but often in obvious, "blatant" statements rather then subtly weaving it throughout the score.

It sound just slightly less as "his" theme then the Fellowship Theme.

Yep

The Fellowship theme was fully formed, like 80 minutes into the first film. Does it make that much of a difference?

Yes, because there were many statements leading up to the fully fledged version of the theme. And the first complete statements of the theme were not big, bombastic ones. These came later.

The Company's theme already appears in complete form in its first statement, and doesn't change much throughout the rest of the film.

The first statements of the theme in AUJ aren't that bombastic either. There is not much difference in tone between "The World Is Ahead" and "Out Of Bree".

In the EE of FotR, the Fellowship theme is fully heard the very moment you see the title card.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,646]

Forgot the statement when Sam and Frodo cross the border of the Shire?

Leave the tracked statements out of the equation, and the Company theme appears less than the Fellowship theme.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,646]

What does "incomplete" mean to you? Up until the "Saruman the White" scene, the Fellowship theme appears twice in full, with A- and B- phrase, fully harmonised.

"Quiet" doesn't equal "incomplete".

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Fellowship Theme is more interwoven with the rest of the score because Shore actually wrote that one!

PERIOD!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,646]

So we have 8 statements, 2 of them that almost feel tracked because they're so similar to other statements, 4 that are big action-oriented statement, and all of them present the theme in full. The Fellowship theme in just one film had way more variations and went through more permutations.

I would argue with that. And if so, then not by much.

For one, the Fellowship theme was never sung in FotR like Misty Mountains. Secondly, the Company theme is not attached to such a major plot point like the Fellowship theme. And thirdly, taking DoS into account, the Fellowship theme was never developed into a major new theme, like House Of Durin came out of Misty Mountains.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Didnt House Of Durin open AUJ?

[gkgyver 1,646]

Chicken, egg ...

[KK 3,307]

It's not a matter of how "complete" the theme was in FOTR, it's more about how Shore flirts with the theme in various ways to provide a keen sense of development up until it's grand fanfaric rendition at Rivendell. There is a sense of journey with that theme, with more humble beginnings, to more regal settings to its inevitable deconstruction in TTT.

As Steef so aptly put, it felt interwoven into the fabric of the score as a whole.

With the MM theme, aside from a few moments, you never really get that. It's rather static throughout much of the film, largely in part due to its original constructs. And it can't bend to different settings like the Fellowship theme so easily did. It always felt like a guest, making cameos in the musical world of another's craft. It's cameos are elegantly conceived, but never really feels part of the while (probably because It wasn't of Shore's own make).

[gkgyver 1,646]

I wouldn't criticise the Misty Mountains theme for not being the Fellowship theme.

Why can't it accomodate different settings? In fact, it does. It conveys mystery and dread in Bag End, a sense of starting adventure in "The World Is Ahead", heroism in "Roast Mutton", loneliness in "Bilbo Packs", a feel of nice realisation in "Where's Bilbo", and sheer scope in "Over Hill". I don't think you can expect much more from a single theme.

[KK 3,307]

The thing is, a lot of things you listed, it doesn't do very well, or at least not without seeming forced. The theme is just not very malleable. It's a great melody in that ancient Georgian chant setting, but in all it's variations, it just evokes the same feelings of nobility and ancient lines. It isn't a very versatile theme ultimately.

[gkgyver 1,646]

Ok then, what are the instances where Fellowship does a much better job? Within FotR of course, as Misty Mountains doesn't appear in its original form in DoS, so it's not fair comparing one film's score to three.

I'll grant that Fellowship has a more interesting harmonisation, with the dual keys; Misty Mountains doesn't have that, which is partly owed to the fact that it's based on the symmetric dwarvish style.

[Kühni 485]

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[Incanus 5,716]

The thing that is a bit more baffling about the Misty Mountains theme is that it is advertised as THE theme for Thorin's company in An Unexpected Journey and then completely abandoned in the next film in a way Fellowship Theme was never left by the wayside in LotR trilogy. I sympathize with Shore for wanting to forge his own musical path and approve that PJ allowed that in DoS but it is almost like leaving the Fellowship theme out of TTT, especially when the MM theme has been so strongly tied to the quest for Erebor and the dwarves' burning desire to reach there. I know it is supplanted by The House of Durin and Thorin's themes but there is no clear progression between the MM and these two.

P.S. I don't think there was any attempt from Plan9 to accomodate Shore's style of writing into their music or his cultural aesthetic for dwarves, unless by accident. As far as I know Shore didn't have any input on the song they worked on and had several melodies for, which was then just chosen by PJ and his team as appropriate.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The thing is, a lot of things you listed, it doesn't do very well, or at least not without seeming forced. The theme is just not very malleable. It's a great melody in that ancient Georgian chant setting, but in all it's variations, it just evokes the same feelings of nobility and ancient lines. It isn't a very versatile theme ultimately.

I agree.

You can play the first 4 or 5 notes of the Fellowship theme in a way you can't do with the Misty Mountains theme.

Ok then, what are the instances where Fellowship does a much better job?

Towards the end there are several slow, mournful statements, signifying the breaking. For instance the stement where Frodo stand at the shore of the lake, holding the One Ring, trying to decide what to do next.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

So we have 8 statements, 2 of them that almost feel tracked because they're so similar to other statements, 4 that are big action-oriented statement, and all of them present the theme in full. The Fellowship theme in just one film had way more variations and went through more permutations.

I would argue with that. And if so, then not by much.

For one, the Fellowship theme was never sung in FotR like Misty Mountains. Secondly, the Company theme is not attached to such a major plot point like the Fellowship theme. And thirdly, taking DoS into account, the Fellowship theme was never developed into a major new theme, like House Of Durin came out of Misty Mountains.

The Company's theme did not develop into the House Of Durin theme. These are just two separate themes.

It's not a matter of how "complete" the theme was in FOTR, it's more about how Shore flirts with the theme in various ways to provide a keen sense of development up until it's grand fanfaric rendition at Rivendell. There is a sense of journey with that theme, with more humble beginnings, to more regal settings to its inevitable deconstruction in TTT.

You put it better than I did. That's basically what I was triyng to say.

And as I said above the Fellowship theme just does not make a disappearing act in TTT or RotK but continues to be a major element among all the other themes always reminding us of the heroism and bond between the members of the fellowship.

[Barnald 365]

I think we went from one extreme to another with the Company/Misty Mountains theme. It should really have been limited in its use rather than left out. Perhaps a rendition near the beginning, then one during the barrel scene, and then maybe one more version when they near Erebor. I think it was unfortunate to abandon it entirely, for the sake of consistency if nothing else.

Of course, it would be very interesting if it turned up in an EE scene. But going by what Doug said, I think it unlikely.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

What did Doug say?

I recall him saying something about them wanting to remove the sense of familiarity with the company entering dangerous new territory, suggesting it was a conscious decision not to use the theme again. Had the theme been used for an EE scene, I presume he would haven't been as assured about it.

[Alex Shore 83]

From the desk of James Sizemore ( Co orchestrator) His work for AUJ and DOS:

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jilal 569]

By the size of both bundles, I'd say that's most (if not all) of the music written for both films, not just the cues that Sizemore orchestrated.

EDIT: according to IMDB, he did the music programming as well, so it's likely he received all of the music to do the programming.

[Kühni 485]

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[Incanus 5,716]

Once the cover for the special edition is out, can one of you Photoshop-proficient people fix me a "There and Back Again" version? 'Coz there's no way on God's green (Middle)-Earth that I'm going with BOTFA.

There is no other way. PJ invented that name, it has no other master! Embrace the power of the title or embrace your own destruction!

I would understand if the name of the film was There and Back Again if it was just a single movie where they do go there and back again but it makes as much sense as Battle of the Five Armies now.

It should have been:

The Hobbit Part 1: There

The Hobbit Part 2: And

The Hobbit Part 3: Back Again

[mstrox 6,651]

Don't give Petey J any more ideas.

Movie 1. There

Movie 2. And

Movie 3. Back

Movie 4. AGAIN?!?!?

[Jay 37,376]

[Incanus 5,716]

I am sure PJ has a trilogy of films in mind to bridge the Hobbit and LotR called What ever Happened Between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings? and there will be an independent story set in Middle Earth based on "The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon" song.

[Faleel 5,365]

So we have 8 statements,

9. You are missing the one at 0:39-0:58 of Moon Runes

(Check Jay's list if you don't believe)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,365]

Its a play on the first three notes.

especially at 0:45.

[Incanus 5,716]

Subtle stuff.

Like the Fate of the Ring that opens the piece and is not Fate of the Ring at all according to Doug. Similar but not the same.

[Faleel 5,365]

To be fair, Fate of the ring does share characteristics of other LOTR themes as well (Evil Times).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

We don't want to speculate, we want the official report from Mr. Adams!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

Yes! We want facts, not trite!

And figuring this out yourself, you know thinking and all that is just not me at all.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,365]

But did Doug confirm it's the Company theme here? If not, then it's not canon!

Going by that logic, most of what we "know" would not be canon

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,365]

So, there is Filmtracks Canon, and The One Ring.net canon?

Youtube Canon?

Conrad Canon?

Sizemore Canon?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

JWFan Canon is the highest, then comes DA canon, followed by TheOneRing.Net canon. PJ canon is the lowest.