The Music Of The Lord Of The Rings Films - Doug Adams' Book & Rarities Archive

[Incanus 5,719]

I have to allay your fears about the Annotated Score section in the book Luke. The Annotated Score analyses the CR tracks, it contains exactly the same track titles, so it will be very easy to follow. There is no direct reference to the fact that the track names are from the CRs though. Also the text is an expanded version of what we had on the Annotated Score PDFs. Fellowship of the Ring Annotated Score benefits from the expanded analysis the most but TTT and RotK have their fair share of new additions and insights.

The thematic discussion alone at the beginning of the book covers over 100 pages and has new material which Doug left for the book. Mostly smaller new motifs not mentioned before. So this book is not cashing in on those who bought the CRs.

And the plans to release a CRs + the book combo were scrapped a good while ago.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

ok that description is more pleasing , the previous one you wrote seemed like a different POW.

[Wojo 2,453]

[Faleel 5,370]

i only like alternate cues if there is something truly special/different between the alternate and the final version not just that the instruments have more reverb or the flutes are too fast/slow.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

me too, i hope i have not been misunderstood...

[Trent B 337]

i only like alternate cues if there is something truly special/different between the alternate and the final version not just that the instruments have more reverb or the flutes are too fast/slow.

Basically like the alternates from Intrada's Back To The Future release?

[Faleel 5,370]

i'm not sure, i dont have the BTTF scores yet, but i like to be able to discern a difference, like the alternate binary sunset

[Trent B 337]

You don't have it yet? For shame...you should get it before it sells out at Intrada, it's definitely worth having. The early score cues are rather interesting but personally I prefer the final film versions.

[Wojo 2,453]

I like how the alternate "Return of the Jedi" track became used for Star Wars computer games.

[Demondm810 399]

Nice interview with Doug Adams from ScoreKeeper at Ain't It Cool:

(even mentions Star Wars!)

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/47008

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

DA: You know, I think it really is as important a work as people think it is. I think it will be one that’s remembered. I don’t think there has been a score that has been so true to its leitmotif structure before. Even the great scores that we love that have these wonderful catalogs of themes, I don’t know if you achieved them there. What’s the classic STAR WARS theme? When Darth Vader strikes down Obi Wan Kenobi? I mean in the emotional context… You can understand exactly why he did it. That’s a little deviation in a light motif structure and it’s perfectly legitimate to do that. It’s not really like you can say “John Williams really pulled a dud there.” It’s a little deviation to it for emotional reasons. LORD OF THE RINGS on the other hand was very specific to that structure. There are no slight of hand in this score in terms of how the leitmotifs are treated. And yes, it had a much larger catalog of themes really. He really spent a lot of time developing material so that… It’s just a huge collection of motifs. Really the book has a full menu and it’s about 80 or 90 different motifs that are developed in very thorough ways throughout the score.

I hope this is not seen as critisizing... what he says about Williams star Wars is true (i would even say he pulled a dud), Shore was not immune to it.

What about the nature theme, that became a rohirrim motif, for no other reason that Peter Jackson liked it and tracked it in to the Helm's deep scene?

Williams problably choose to use princess leia when ben dies, but shore was forced to...

And what about the gondor motif used in reference to the old numenoreans? Probably before shore decided to sepparate both... but since this was not released, well it doesnt count

I have one question that i just remembered about the book. What is the preview ussage of 'Into the west' in The two towers?

[Faleel 5,370]

DA: It's not really like you can say "John Williams really pulled a dud there." It's a little deviation to it for emotional reasons.

what he says about Williams star Wars is true (i would even say he pulled a dud, What about the nature theme, that became a rohirrim motif, for no other reason that Peter Jackson liked it and tracked it in to the Helm's deep scene?

Williams problably choose to use princess leia when ben dies, And what about the gondor motif used in reference to the old numenoreans?

A: princess leia was in the scene.

2: the rohirrim are nature people (PETA?).

D: the gondorians were the decendents of the numenorians.

[Incanus 5,719]

I have one question that i just remembered about the book. What is the preview ussage of 'Into the west' in The two towers?

Doug actually does not point out any single instance of Grey Havens theme appearing in FotR or TTT but says that it is very subtly woven into the scores rather than clearly stated.

[Quintus 5,399]

Just heard the crazy choral alternate ending of Flight to the Ford. Wow! I wish they'd used it in the movie - it would have been brilliant!

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I have one question that i just remembered about the book. What is the preview ussage of 'Into the west' in The two towers?

Doug actually does not point out any single instance of Grey Havens theme appearing in FotR or TTT but says that it is very subtly woven into the scores rather than clearly stated.

uh...eh...what a let down.

[Demondm810 399]

Just heard the crazy choral alternate ending of Flight to the Ford. Wow! I wish they'd used it in the movie - it would have been brilliant!

Yea, that's gorgeous.

[Danielle 0]

Just heard the crazy choral alternate ending of Flight to the Ford. Wow! I wish they'd used it in the movie - it would have been brilliant!

The score just before that part is barely audible in the film underneath the sound effects, so I doubt it would have made much difference if it had been included. You're right though, it is brilliant. No way it's going into an "alternates" section on my edit.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Amazon UK has finally got their act together. Book should be with me by Saturday

[Joe Brausam 215]

I have one question that i just remembered about the book. What is the preview ussage of 'Into the west' in The two towers?

Doug actually does not point out any single instance of Grey Havens theme appearing in FotR or TTT but says that it is very subtly woven into the scores rather than clearly stated.

uh...eh...what a let down.

Actually I'm sure there is a clear statement of the first 4 notes of the theme that can be heard at 0:47 in "The King's Decision", just before Gandalf rides off.

[Faleel 5,370]

the best thing about Howard Shore is his realisticness where JW is more fanciful, i mean compare HS's love theme for Eowyn & Aragorn/Theoden and compare them to JW's love themes

[Wojo 2,453]

Fine, I deleted this. I don't understand what I wast trying to saye ither.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

i dont understand what you want to say.

[Faleel 5,370]

Realisticness? Seriously?

If there's anything I gathered about Shore's love theme for Eowyn & Aragorn/Theoden, it's that I didn't exactly know when and where love theme for Eowyn & Aragorn/Theoden appeared.

Both Marion's Theme and Han and Leia's Love Theme knock the pants off of any love theme from Shore's Lord of the Rings.

the word i was looking for was simpler, HS's love theme for E&A/T is simpler, where JW's love themes are more fanciful/fantastic, i get goosebumps and touched by HS's love theme more then i get that from JW for example listen to Passing of the Grey Company (CR) at about 0:35 and the love theme plays until around 1:20 and its one of my favourite non-action sections of the LOTR scores

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

The aragorn and arwen music is somewhat sugary too.

Eowyns love them is subdued because there is not a real love relatioship there...

But star wars, indiana jones, superman, are less 'serious' movies than LOTR...

The chairman waltz is a rather nice love theme.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, having had a listen to the Rarities, I'll go ahead and say the 'new' music which has been released is almost completely unnecessary. The book must surely be the main reason to by this set, because the tracks on the album are mostly pointless additions to the vast amount of music already made available.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

there are four or three gems... good alternates are never pointless.

[Quintus 5,399]

Cost is relevent.

[Faleel 5,370]

if there was no rarites we wouldnt be able to hear the evolution to what we eventually got, and after reading the book (or the Annotated Score for that matter) and its many refrences to unreleased alternates it would have the effect of salty peanuts, some people would get "thirsty" for them like they would get thirsty for soda/water/beer

[Wojo 2,453]

Cost is relevent.

Wax is ear relevant.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

I found around half of the cues on the disc to be interesting in some way. But the book should be a decent read too.

[Quintus 5,399]

]if there was no rarites we wouldnt be able to hear the evolution to what eventually got

Sure, the origins are always going to be of interest to those who purchase a release like this, that is obvious. I'm merely coming from the angle of a score fan who is less, shall we say, die hard. I think there are one or two here who might be interested in this, but will be disappointed - like I was.

LotR was complete enough. It didn't need more music on release. But I'm glad for those who appreciate synth mockups and such things. But surely you can understand why releases like this are so extremely seldom in the first place? They're a niché market; there's no need to be slightly defensive when someone says it's not for them.

[Incanus 5,719]

]if there was no rarites we wouldnt be able to hear the evolution to what eventually got

Sure, the origins are always going to be of interest to those who purchase a release like this, that is obvious. I'm merely coming from the angle of a score fan who is less, shall we say, die hard. I think there are one or two here who might be interested in this, but will be disappointed - like I was.

LotR was complete enough. It didn't need more music on release. But I'm glad for those who appreciate synth mockups and such things. But surely you can understand why releases like this are so extremely seldom in the first place? They're a niché market; there's no need to be slightly defensive when someone says it's not for them.

I understand the sentiment that there was enough music from the trilogy to begin with so why add another disc that may not be interesting to a more casual fan of film music.

I do hope that the book in itself is interesting enough to warrant a purchase, not merely the disc of archival music that comes with it. They are meant to go together, not just to provide additional minutes of music for the casual fan. That is why they are not selling the disc on its own. The Rarities Archive works very well as just that, a collection of unheard music that provides a glimpse to the process of creation of the music and the evolution of these scores. Mr. Adams has tried to provide a sort of musical narrative to the disc so that it would work on its own as a listening experience and in my opinion has succeeded quite well when you consider the disparate elements the album is comprised of. To me there are several interesting and lovely pieces of music on the album that I will listen regularly and add to my playlists of the complete scores. This of course may vary from listener to listener.

And I do think that this release is not exactly geared for the less than die hard fans of LotR music. After all if you not interested in buying a book on the subject to get this Rarities disc, then maybe you are not so interested in hearing more music from LotR in the first place and such alternates and mock-ups do not mean much more to your enjoyment of these scores.

[Faleel 5,370]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpOSOo2S238

here is an attempt to apply the alternate prologue to the film (i had to edit the video a bit)

the quality isnt too good, i dont know what happened

[Alan 689]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpOSOo2S238

here is an attempt to apply the alternate prologue to the film (i had to edit the video a bit)

the quality isnt too good, i dont know what happened

Nicely done. Interesting to see how well it seems to fit in places. As you discovered with having to re-edit the video, it's hard to match these alternates to the film exactly due to the changes the film underwent. It wasn't simply a case of Jackson and Shore deciding the music needed to be changed. The music often needed to be changed because the picture wasn't locked. We don't know what the Prologue looked like when Shore recorded the version from the OST or Rarities Archive.

Does any one have a preference? Prologue: One Ring to Rule Them All, film version or alternate? I'd probably say that I prefer the alternate, from a purely musical point of view.

[Faleel 5,370]

i dont like the film version, it sounds too much like an edit

[crocodile 8,020]

I think that's a major problem with these scores. Too much inserts, rewrites, alternates and all these. While Shore's efforts to conform to new cuts are admirable it also creates some problems as far as music flow goes. Anyway, it's still better than the prequels situation.

Karol

[Faleel 5,370]

yes, atleast its not the same cymbal crash repeated 1+4 times

[Alan 689]

i dont like the film version, it sounds too much like an edit

That's kind of why I prefer the alternate too. The film version, though clearly not an edit job does feel like a whole heap of thematic material strung together with little flow. Personally, I still really like the film version exactly because it has great statements of a number of themes but the alternate feels more like it's own composition.

As for the scores as a whole, I do not feel that they suffer from a lack of flow and I'm thankful that Shore was able to stay on during the editing process. It at least means the scores are not hacked up in the films as much as many other films.

These scores easily stand as 3 of my favourites and I'm feeling very spoiled as a fan right now with the CR's, book and rarities sat in font of me

[Faleel 5,370]

the only time it is subject to tracking of any sort is in TTT when the rohirrim attackthe uruk-hai and during the warg battle before helms deep

though i think there is an unreleased insert when legolas senses gandalf/saruman in fangorn

[crocodile 8,020]

Yay! The books is here and it looks gorgeous, simple and neat.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

its curious though that i thought all the gondor theme statements on FOTR and TTT sounded somehow like additions-rescores-afterthoughts after he composed the gondor theme (before composing ROTK, of course)

but this theme may have been the first theme shore composed for the men of the west.

or they sound like small hints or winks for things to come, yet the theme was already rather developed in early cuts.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

its curious though that i thought all the gondor theme statements on FOTR and TTT sounded somehow like additions-rescores-afterthoughts after he composed the gondor theme (before composing ROTK, of course)

but this theme may have been the first theme shore composed for the men of the west.

or they sound like small hints or winks for things to come, yet the theme was already rather developed in early cuts.

I love it because you only really realise until you watch ROTK (or the TTT EE) that the music underscoring Boromir at the council is the Gondor theme, or the music when Aragorn and Boromir talk about returning to Minas Tirith at Rivendell is the Anduril theme. I adore stuff like that, and both themes to boot work great as subterfuge.

[Jay 37,384]

Yea, its awesome the way he did stuff like that

[crocodile 8,020]

When I first watched FOTR I immediately thought he was going to develop it into something. It was just sticking too much out of the underscore. The same thing goes for the other Gondror theme for the scene when Aragorn and Boromir are talking in Lothlorien.

Karol

[Red 75]

I probably didn't notice the Gondor theme being in Fellowship until after I saw Return of the King. It may have even been after that when I watched the DVD's. Shore is brilliant for those little touches like that.

[Incanus 5,719]

its curious though that i thought all the gondor theme statements on FOTR and TTT sounded somehow like additions-rescores-afterthoughts after he composed the gondor theme (before composing ROTK, of course)

but this theme may have been the first theme shore composed for the men of the west.

or they sound like small hints or winks for things to come, yet the theme was already rather developed in early cuts.

I love it because you only really realise until you watch ROTK (or the TTT EE) that the music underscoring Boromir at the council is the Gondor theme, or the music when Aragorn and Boromir talk about returning to Minas Tirith at Rivendell is the Anduril theme. I adore stuff like that, and both themes to boot work great as subterfuge.

I was constantly happily surprised by the forethought and effort Shore put into these scores. The structure and musical development is really so well thought out. In FotR these musical statements of both Gondorian themes, the Realm of Gondor and the Minas Tirith (Silver Trumpets) theme which you refer as Andúril theme, are single instances that you can't identify as leitmotifs because they do not recur. They are two extremely memorable musical moments though, something you expect to have some significance. At least I did. As you say the delight comes when you discover that the composer has actually been very thoughtful and thorough and planted the musical idea so very early on when you hear them again in the subsequent films. And the musical statements make complete sense when looking back. Even though I count myself very knowledgeable when it comes to these scores the fact that Shore used the Realm of Gondor theme so prominently in the alternate material came as a surprise, not so much that he had composed it and developed it so early on. After all Gondor figured very prominently into the history of the One Ring.

Another such instance of spotting such a connection is the subtle version of the Fate of the Ring/Destruction of the Ring theme which is heard in the TTT Extended version and then finally in all its glory in the finale at Mount Doom in RotK.

Or how the up and down figures from the Prologue appear when Boromir tries to take the Ring from Frodo and the very same up and down figure is present at the scene in TTT EE where Denethor demands Boromir to bring him "this mighty gift". It is a nice moment of backwards thematic scoring, refering back and forth chronologically that Boromir's desperation was in fact caused by both his wish to please his ambitious and dominating father and by the fear for the well being of his people. And before you claim this to be a musical coincidence, Mr. Adams has confirmed the connection in an e-mail a good while ago.

[Jay 37,384]

On 10/19/2010 at 1:14 PM, Incanus said:

Or how the up and down figures from the Prologue appear when Boromir tries to take the Ring from Frodo and the very same up and down figure is present at the scene in TTT EE where Denethor demands Boromir to bring him "this mighty gift". It is a nice moment of backwards thematic scoring, refering back and forth chronologically that Boromir's desperation was in fact caused by both his wish to please his ambitious and dominating father and by the fear for the well being of his people. And before you claim this to be a musical coincidence, Mr. Adams has confirmed the connection in an e-mail a good while ago.

 

Yea I noticed that pattern right away, and was surprised when it wasnt brought up in the CR liner notes or annoted score PDFs

I haven't had the time to investigate the book deeply yet to see if its mentioned there

[crocodile 8,020]

Speaking of foreshadowing... is it just me or does Nature's Reclamation theme appear FOTR in the Parth Galen track at around 6:12 into the track?

Karol

[Incanus 5,719]

Or how the up and down figures from the Prologue appear when Boromir tries to take the Ring from Frodo and the very same up and down figure is present at the scene in TTT EE where Denethor demands Boromir to bring him "this mighty gift". It is a nice moment of backwards thematic scoring, refering back and forth chronologically that Boromir's desperation was in fact caused by both his wish to please his ambitious and dominating father and by the fear for the well being of his people. And before you claim this to be a musical coincidence, Mr. Adams has confirmed the connection in an e-mail a good while ago.

Yea I noticed that pattern right away, and was surprised when it wasnt brought up in the CR liner notes or annoted score PDFs

I haven't had the time to investigate the book deeply yet to see if its mentioned there

Actually the connection is brought up in the book in the analysis of that scene. Seems that I skimmed over that particular part too fast. Shame on me!

Speaking of foreshadowing... is it just me or does Nature's Reclamation theme appear FOTR in the Parth Galen track at around 6:12 into the track?

Karol

Yes I think it does. The chords of Nature's Reclamation are referenced in that section and I think this was discussed a long time ago and confirmed by Mr. Adams. It is when Merry and Pippin decide the distract the Uruk-hai to buy Frodo time to escape. Strangely this was not mentioned in the book.

[crocodile 8,020]

That's what I thought. I was asking precisely because there is no mention of it in the book or in the liner notes. Which is strange indeed.

Karol