Star Wars Disenchantment

[Arpy 4,145]

'SJW's' in my view aren't the genuine activists and advocates for issues like gender equality, freedom of speech, liberal values, the empowerment and fair treatment of women and women's rights, they are instead defined as 'Social Justice Warriors' because they are the equivalent of the Crusades, enforcing and restricting freedom of expression and speech to censor and place one's emotions over another's right to say something that hurts their feelings. They are a cancerous legion of disaffected men and women who give those of us who strive for all the things they superficially advocate for, Feminism and true Social Justice that is rooted in western humanist values a bad name. For a while I sought to disassociate myself from the label of 'Feminist' because the virulent misuse of the label to spout the ludicrous things these 'Warriors' want to enforce.

4 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

In the Battle of Crait, Finn decided to sacrifice himself to save the Resistance (his new friends). Rose's selfish act denied him that, and in doing so, risked both of their lives, and destroyed their ships. She proclaimed, "That's how we're going to win. Not fighting what we hate. But saving what we love." She kissed him and fainted, leaving Finn to drag her unconscious body across the battlefield, at the risk of being shot by the First Order walkers or ships.

 

 

Rose’s actions weren’t selfish, there wasn’t any indication that Finn’s speeder would’ve done any damage. Wouldn’t it be the case that a giant laser cannon would obliterate anything that crosses its path? Finn would've sacrificed himself for nothing. Perhaps Rose saved him from a potentially suicidal act?

 

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Indisputably, the highest grossing movie of the year is "underperforming" when it makes $700 million less than its predecessor. "Was anyone expecting it to make more than that?" Yes, I'm sure the Disney executives, shareholders, and fans expected TLJ to make 80-90% of what TFA made - not 64%.

How do you know what they expected, the millions it raked in are still ahead of other blockbusters that were released in that summer period.

 

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I agreed that Solo would have made more had it been released in December... but doubted that it would've made $800 million. I also said that saying that it "struggled to perform alongside other tentpole movies that were playing at the time" is a cop-out. A Star Wars film should never struggle. The film's sub-par marketing, production woes, and "overall quality" didn't help, but those were not the top reasons that Solo flopped: backlash from TLJ.

Solo underperformed for a number of reasons, the backlash from TLJ was indeed one of them, but moreso than that was the impetus of having to see a spin-off film not many were clamouring for. Couple that with the terrible release schedule – needing to compete with Avengers: Infinity War Part 1 and Deadpool 2.

 

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Most people I've met on the internet and social media said that most of Solo was mediocre, with loads of cringe-worthy moments, and only a few great action and character-driven scenes.

I would say the online reception has been as expected – mediocre, yet varied in responses from die-hard fanboys to casual fans; the reactions haven’t been overwhelmingly negative though. From people whom I know offline and the group of people I went to see the film with – none of whom would call themselves ‘Star Wars Fans’ thought the film was much better than what they thought it was going to be, citing the negative online reception for their low expectations.

 

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The real Han Solo is featured in Episodes 4-7. This movie will only cloud my mind, so I have no desire to see it.

Wait, so you haven’t seen the film and have just decided to jump on the Negativity Bandwagon? Why don’t you see it and form a much more nuanced opinion before shitting all over it.

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He would only go and see it with the intention to have his preconceived ideas validated.

[Arpy 4,145]

Hasn't seen the film, says the real Han Solo is in 4-7. 

 

I didn't know Han Solo was real!

[Brónach 1,302]

"agenda-driven narrative"

 

Just what the fuck do you want a narrative to be. Everything competently written has themes and points of view going on. The ones you like too.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Perhaps "fans" never want Star wars to more beyond it's fairytale beginnings of "A long time ago....."

 

ROTS had a very strong agenda-driven, anti-Bush narrative, btw.

[Brónach 1,302]

And the first one still had space nazis and WW2 stuff and inspiration by the Vietnam War (which Lucas couldn't execute as a Vietnam movie at the time, it's a interview somewhere)

 

I hope Matris never reads any of my own silly concoctions. It contains *gasp* people being assholes, people doing the wrong thing, people doing the right thing, and worse, there's stuff going on and people who don't know what to do.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

Perhaps "fans" never want Star wars to more beyond it's fairytale beginnings of "A long time ago....."

 

ROTS had a very strong agenda-driven, anti-Bush narrative, btw.

 

Sure, but they don't see RotS's anti-Bush/Bush Doctrine leanings as an aggressive ideological push from the same people who go all neurotic and confused by which public toilet to use and go berserk over boys playing with boys' toys coloured blue and girls playing with girls' toys coloured pink.

[Brónach 1,302]

5 minutes ago, Margo Channing said:

 

Sure, but they don't see RotS's anti-Bush/Bush Doctrine leanings as an ideological push from the same people who go all neurotic and confused by which public toilet to use and go berserk over boys playing with boys' toys coloured blue and girls playing with girls' toys coloured pink.

 

You mean Kathleen Kennedy doesn't know which toilet to use and is very concerned about the color of toys?

 

I'm now picturing nervous Rian Johnson, nervous and walking in circles, not knowing where to pee during the premiere of the movie. He walks out of the theatre, pees on a tree.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, Brónach said:

 

You mean Kathleen Kennedy doesn't know which toilet to use and is very concerned about the color of toys?

 

According to this, technically, we can't even go to the bathroom.

[Brónach 1,302]

According to what? I'm lost

[mstrox 6,651]

Just popping in to share with the SWDs the first official statement about what George Lucas' sequel trilogy that they're dreaming of would have been about.

 

It's germs!

[Brónach 1,302]

That's cool.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Yeah Right...

 

George Lucas was always full of it.

 

He didn't have this series planned out. At best he had vague ideas, mostly a recycling of the lesser ideas found in earlier drafts of his screenplay to Star Wars. What little we know of these ideas is that his original intention was for the sequel trilogy to form a sextet with the first three films, with episode IX essentially being what Return of the Jedi ended up being.¹

 

By the time Return of the Jedi took shape, any and all plans for a sequel trilogy were in effect abandoned, because the story had reached its conclusion. And, as much as I'm not a big fan of Return of the Jedi, I still think his idea for a nonet was stupid: You'd watch only a half of Luke's story only to go back to hear Anakin's and than return to see the second half of Luke's story? 

_____________________________________________

¹ Interview with Gary Kurtz (IGN: 2002), p. 4.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Germophobe!

[Arpy 4,145]

How outlandish and bizarre, but how interesting! The sequel trilogy we have has kept things marginally grounded and close to what came before, but to see Lucas play out his ideas would've been interesting, if not only because Williams could write these lush fantasy scores within the SW universe, including themes for the Whills and more force themes etc.

@Chen G. Lucas also stated several times Revenge of the Sith was going to be the last film. Going off of what is documented in the 'Making of' book and info elsewhere, Lucas had a difficult time putting together Revenge of the Sith and was probably happy it was over, Anakin's story was completed.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Like I said, by the time Return of the Jedi took shape, any and all ideas to create a nonet were shut down, so that inevitably made Revenge of the Sith his last film in the series.

 

His idea of making a trilogy about this "whills" doesn't sound appealing to me, either. One, by putting so much emphasis on exploring an aspect of his fictional world (the whills here, the Republic in the prequels) he is putting the character stories at the back-seat, which is always a good way to end up with an unfocused narrative.

 

Furthermore, all this talk of feeding off of the force and microbiotics would probably follow in-line with Lucas' concept of midi-chlorians and would probably only serve to furher de-mistfy the concept of The Force.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

That's so gonzo, I love it! No way Disney would've ever made those, and I can only imagine that the fans, including all of those who lament his absence, would've hated it. EDIT: Didn't realize Lucas said the same thing.

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Like I said, by the time Return of the Jedi took shape, any and all ideas to create a nonet were shut down, so that inevitably made Revenge of the Sith his last film in the series.

 

His idea of making a trilogy about this "whills" doesn't sound appealing to me, either. One, by putting emphasis on exploring an aspect of his fictional world (the whills) he is putting the character stories at the back-seat, which is always a good way to end up with an unfocused narrative. Furthermore, all this talk of feeding off of the force and microbiotics would probably follow in-line with Lucas' concept of midi-chlorians and would probably only serve to furher de-mistfy the concept of The Force.

 

They might not necessarily be the entire focus of these hypothetical films that we'll never see.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Maybe not, but seeing as how that aspect of his idea was what he chose to disclose (rather than "it would have been about Luke discovering the Whills, for instance), and seeing how his prequels turned out for very similar reasons, I would bet good money on that.

[mstrox 6,651]

I think George Lucas should make a Star Wars movie about hot dogs.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

If only we'd gotten to see the ROTJ that Kurtz talked about, with its bittersweet ending, and Del Toro's Hobbit.

Jackson & Lucas: A Cautionary Tale

 

(sigh).

[Chen G. 3,950]

24 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

If only we'd gotten to see the ROTJ that Kurtz talked about, with its bittersweet ending,

 

To be fair, we did, kinda. Its called The Force Awakens.

[Mattris 416]

On 6/13/2018 at 3:00 AM, Arpy said:

Rose’s actions weren’t selfish, there wasn’t any indication that Finn’s speeder would’ve done any damage. Wouldn’t it be the case that a giant laser cannon would obliterate anything that crosses its path? Finn would've sacrificed himself for nothing. Perhaps Rose saved him from a potentially suicidal act?

 

How do you know what they expected, the millions it raked in are still ahead of other blockbusters that were released in that summer period.

 

Solo underperformed for a number of reasons, the backlash from TLJ was indeed one of them, but moreso than that was the impetus of having to see a spin-off film not many were clamouring for. Couple that with the terrible release schedule – needing to compete with Avengers: Infinity War Part 1 and Deadpool 2.

 

I would say the online reception has been as expected – mediocre, yet varied in responses from die-hard fanboys to casual fans; the reactions haven’t been overwhelmingly negative though. From people whom I know offline and the group of people I went to see the film with – none of whom would call themselves ‘Star Wars Fans’ thought the film was much better than what they thought it was going to be, citing the negative online reception for their low expectations.

 

Wait, so you haven’t seen the film and have just decided to jump on the Negativity Bandwagon? Why don’t you see it and form a much more nuanced opinion before shitting all over it.

 

 

Regardless of Finn's intentions, I can agree that Rose stopping him from stealing one of the escape pods was the right thing to do. But that's about it for the her positively affecting the movie. Her other actions were intentionally grandiose and selfish. She goes from admiring the Finn to being his controller in an instant. Their interactions were not a natural or believable.

 

Saying "there wasn’t any indication that Finn’s speeder would’ve done any damage" is a silly argument. He was willing to sacrifice himself - to save his new friends - by crashing into the giant laser cannon, the ensuing damage of which would have, more than likely, disabled it. Finn was shown already having crossed the "path" of the laser, but it had not become powerful enough to cause damage to his speeder. But Rose, who was shown pealing away with the remaining speeders, was inexplicably able to fly fast enough to loop around and hit Finn's speeder at a 90-degree angle. She could have killed them both... and has the audacity to call him a "dummy" and kiss him on the lips... before she faints. Why can't you admit that this is cringe-worthy stuff?

 

TLJ having been relatively successful (compared to other films that year) is not the point. I can just as easily ask, how do you know that Disney expected and/or was pleased with making $700 million less the TFA? This major decline in revenue was not just because 'the movie was a sequel'. Lots of people only saw it once, and it broke the SW fandom.

 

Regarding Solo's under-performance: You say it was a "film not many were clamouring for". My response: Kathleen Kennedy has a terrible read on the public (including the SW fans) but signed-off on the film to be made. She then allowed bad press (acting coach needed for the lead, massive re-shoots, unprofessional Tweets from Lucasfilm employees, etc.) to continue without ever changing the negative narrative of the production of the film. The "terrible release schedule" is a cop-out excuse. I agree that Solo (which ended up with an astronomical budget) would have been more profitable if it was released in December. The obvious question is, why didn't Kathleen Kennedy postpone it until then? Answer: Kathleen Kennedy is incompetent at her job.

 

Most Star Wars fans were unimpressed with Solo. And the rest didn't see it for a whole host of reasons. Fails all-around.

 

I've watched/read many in-depth Solo reviews and know enough. Ever since the debacle that was TLJ, Disney/Lucasfilm has responded in utterly disrespectful ways to the fans. People like me do not appreciate their defiance, so they will not be getting our money until they change their ways.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Your post is just way too fucking long.

[John 2,032]

I feel much of the backlash against these new SW movies comes down to entitlement; plain and simple. Everyone has been conditioned that complaining will yield instant gratification, and that their tantrums and fits are to be validated and not ignored.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Or we just miss Hayden, Tobey as Spider-Man and James Cameron making non-Avatar movies. Either way.

[Mattris 416]

6 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

Your post is just way too fucking long.

 

If I was vague in making my points, I'd be getting complaints that the posts were 'too short'. Obviously, more words are required to fully explain my thoughts. I'm basically the only one making the case against Lucasfilm - verses a dozen of you debating and/or making comments that don't add to the discussion at all. So please forgive me if it takes you a couple of minutes to read some of my posts.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

An hour. Two, at most.

[John 2,032]

FINISH HIM

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I shouldn't.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

58 minutes ago, Mattris said:

If I was vague in making my points, I'd be getting complaints that the posts were 'too short'.

 

If Rian Johnson was vague in elaborating and exploring his themes in The Last Jedi, he'd be getting complaints that the film was "too shallow".--Oh whoops.

 

54 minutes ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

I shouldn't.

 

You defend him because he's your bread and butter!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

So...do it?

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Do not hesitate. Show no mercy.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I see through the lies of the JWFans.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

I knew you wouldn't have the spine to finish him!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I miscalculated.

[Holko 9,530]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

This was a major decline in revenue... and was not just because 'the movie was a sequel'.

 

You're right... it's because it's a sequel to the third highest grossing film (when not adjusted for inflation) which is the first proper movie in a beloved universe in 10 years and featuring the beloved main cast for the first time after 32 years. Of course there was going to be a fucking falloff from that. Force Awakens was not just a movie, but an event. And Last Jedi is still the 11th highest grossing film on the same list.

[Arpy 4,145]

3 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

I miscalculated.

Never tell me the odds.

[Chen G. 3,950]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

Of course there was going to be a fucking falloff from that. Force Awakens was not just a movie, but an event.

 

So you think it had nothing to do with the fact that The Last Jedi is also an inferior film?

 

Because I do.

[Holko 9,530]

Is it inferior?

 

Point is, I don't think anybody expected it to make as much money as the motion picture event of a generation.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It's better in some ways. Not as good in other ways.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Its a less even picture. Some parts are better than The Force Awakens, others - decidedly aren't, and all of them lack the polish that that film had.

 

I had to force myself to rewatch The Last Jedi, and having seen it three times (I always watch a film twice to really evaluate it, and I wanted to watch it a third time on the small screen to see how it fares there, as well) I have no interest in rewatching it, and I've been hearing that response from others, as well. Whereas whenever The Force Awakens pops on television - I will probably sit down and watch it; and that's true of the other good episodes, as well.

 

The fanboy backlash compelled people who enjoyed the film to pretend its this masterwork of a film, where it really isn't.

[Arpy 4,145]

TFA was a major return for Star Wars, the anticipation built before it released was insane and the impact of that film meant there was also anticipation for TLJ, yet we mustn't forget that there was a backlash to The Force Awakens that ensured audiences were going into the next film with trepidation and the tenuous possibility that it wouldn't live up to the first. It's almost a reverse parallel of The Phantom Menace - huge hype and anticipation, but that was a critical failure. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

51 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its a less even picture. Some parts are better than The Force Awakens, others - decidedly aren't, and all of them lack the polish that that film had.

 

I had to force myself to rewatch The Last Jedi, and having seen it three times (I always watch a film twice to really evaluate it, and I wanted to watch it a third time on the small screen to see how it fares there, as well) I have no interest in rewatching it, and I've been hearing that response from others, as well. Whereas whenever The Force Awakens pops on television - I will probably sit down and watch it; and that's true of the other good episodes, as well.

 

The fanboy backlash compelled people who enjoyed the film to pretend its this masterwork of a film, where it really isn't.

 

I'm kind of the opposite. For some reason I find TLJ a more compelling watch than TFA and find myself paying more attention to the dramatically juicy bits. They're still both bloated popcorn flicks though.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

Is it inferior?

 

Point is, I don't think anybody expected it to make as much money as the motion picture event of a generation.

 

This is a little bit of obfuscation though, isn't it?  Of course no one expected it to make as much money.  But 700 million less is a pretty steep drop. It's significant. The drop is the box office of a midrange performing Marvel hit. Let's put it this way...TLJ's drop from the TFA will be greater than the total box office take from SOLO. Don't tell me the people at Disney don't notice that.

 

I doubt anyone at Disney is panicking about Star Wars just yet. But they've got to be a little nervous about what's going to happen after Episode IX. 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

3 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

TLJ's drop from the TFA will be greater than the total box office take from SOLO.

 

More than twice as much!

[Holko 9,530]

Did anyone on Earth seriously expect a sequel to a pretty-well-but-not-universally-greatly recieved movie to make anywhere near Two. Billion. Dollars. Again? The "drop off" is relatively huge because TFA's box office was so insane because of the hype.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

5 minutes ago, Holko said:

Did anyone on Earth seriously expect a sequel to a pretty-well-but-not-universally-greatly recieved movie to make anywhere near two bilion dollars again? The "drop off" is relatively huge because TFA's box office was so insane because of the hype.

 

Hype alone doesn't get you to two billion. What gets you to two billion is hype, people loving the movie, and repeat business. 

 

TLJ didn't have anywhere near the sheer fan affection for the previous film, and that impacted the repeat business.

 

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

It just isn't as good a film.

 

If, of all people, my first reaction when credits rolled was "that was looong" than something's wrong!

[Mattris 416]

8 hours ago, John said:

FINISH HIM

 

You make it sound as if I'm 'on the ropes'.

 

Additional issues with TLJ:

 

- After having his back sliced open with a lightsaber and being knocked unconscious, Finn wakes up (fully recovered) within an hour, or so. (He could have awoken later in the film at an opportune time.)
- The film starts on an appropriately tense note but what immediately follows is an extended phone-call prank. Hux tells Poe that the First Order "will show no mercy" so why didn't he fire on Poe immediately?

- Why couldn't Leia supersede Poe's orders to the bomber squadron?
- When subjected to any laser-fire or shrapnel, the Resistance bombers' burn-up like they're made of paper.

- With more powerful engines, why weren't the First Order ships able to travel faster than the Resistance fleet?
- BB-8 expertly operates a walker and saves Finn and Poe at the most opportune moment. And its head covering is conveniently removed, too. Utterly ridiculous.
- How did Rey get from the Supremacy's throne room onto the Falcon? That would have been interesting to see.

- On Crait, why did the Resistance charge the First Order forces with weapon-less speeders? Talk about a suicide mission!

 

How about we suggest ways the movie could have been improved? I'll get it started:

 

In Snoke's throne room, we saw Hux reach for his blaster to shoot unconscious Klyo. After Luke had made a fool of Kylo on the Crait battlefield, Hux could have given the order to shoot Kylo: I want every gun we have to fire on that man. Do it.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

12 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Additional issues with TLJ:

 

- After having his back sliced open with a lightsaber and being knocked unconscious, Finn wakes up (fully recovered) within an hour, or so. (He could have awoken later in the film at an opportune time.)
- The film starts on an appropriately tense note but what immediately follows is an extended phone-call prank. Hux tells Poe that the First Order "will show no mercy" so why didn't he fire on Poe immediately?

- Why couldn't Leia supersede Poe's orders to the bomber squadron?
- When subjected to any laser-fire or shrapnel, the Resistance bombers' burn-up like they're made of paper.

- With more powerful engines, why weren't the First Order ships able to travel faster than the Resistance fleet?
- BB-8 expertly operates a walker and saves Finn and Poe at the most opportune moment. And its head covering is conveniently removed, too. Utterly ridiculous.
- How did Rey get from the Supremacy's throne room onto the Falcon? That would have been interesting to see.

- On Crait, why did the Resistance charge the First Order forces with weapon-less speeders? Talk about a suicide mission!

 

 

Meh. There are lots of issues with TLJ, but this is just nitpicking. You could similarly dissect any of the Star Wars films.  You're more convincing criticising the significant plot and character problems with the film than this petty stuff.