Star Wars Disenchantment

[Holko 9,529]

42 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Just like Johnson did away with wipes for more clever transitions

 

TLJ has the most wipes in any SW movie. He posted that at the end of postproduction.

 

EDIT: This is false, I am an idiot.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

 

5 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

TLJ has the most wipes in any SW movie. He posted that at the end of postproduction.

 

12 is the most wipes?

 

Huh.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I usually only wipe 2 or 3 times.

[Holko 9,529]

Shit, I completely misremembered it

 

 

One thing I gotta hand to our Goldenrod is that as far as I remember, he hasn't bitched about Rey being a Mary Sue yet.

[Chen G. 3,950]

7 minutes ago, Holko said:

he hasn't bitched about Rey being a Mary Sue yet.

 

Although she still kind of is.

 

All that's left is for her to die in IX.

28 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

12 is the most wipes?

 

Its actually the least.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

A Mary Sue is a self-insert female character who is portrayed as flawless and admired by every single person who interacts with them. Rey is not a Mary Sue.

[Chen G. 3,950]

I said "kinda".

 

The original Mary Sue is a character from a short Star-Trek fanfic, and yes, she goes by the traits you marked, as well as by meeting a tragic end.

 

And while I don't mind Rey and I don't think she represents a particularly toxic brand of feminism, I also think her many, many strengths are narrativelly convenient. Her saving grace is that, internally, she is full of self-doubt in her capabilities, which is always nice in a Hero's Journey story.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

I don't think Rey is much of a Mary Sue (though she is a bit), and I think she's actually a very well drawn character.

 

That said, contrary to popular wisdom, I don't think TLJ did a particularly good job of showing "strong" female characters. In fact I'd say it does this the worst of any Star Wars film. And this comes down lazy writing and shortcuts.

 

And if we're talking about genre franchises, I actually think Game of Thrones, LOTR and especially Star Trek do a much better job on this score.

[Holko 9,529]

To make up for all my getting facts wrong and to tie into an earlier subject matter: look how fucking gorgeous Empire is!

 

 

Screenshots from Adywan's Empire Revisited, props to him for regrading the sometimes vomit-inducingly botched Bluray as well as a billion other fantastic changes!

 

I still prefer STAR WARS overall, movie and score.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

Empire is the BEST!

 

Best Star Wars film!

Best Star Wars score!

Best ending!

Best acting!

Best Yoda!

 

Best, best, best!

 

The Empire Strikes back is one of the greatest films of all time.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

16 hours ago, Arpy said:

I don't think @Mattris does share the goals of some of the most virulent out there, but his tone does smack of someone who has felt dejected by what he perceives to be a mishandling of his fandom.

 

The problem is he presents himself here as a sort of self-appointed spokesperson for that community, a benign vector transmitting virulent ideas.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

And while I don't mind Rey and I don't think she represents a particularly toxic brand of feminism, I also think her many, many strengths are narrativelly convenient. Her saving grace is that, internally, she is full of self-doubt in her capabilities, which is always nice in a Hero's Journey story.

 

Her strengths are no more convenient than Luke's, or Anakin's. Ace pilot and natural warrior who's resourceful and strong in the Force? That's your Star Wars protagonist. They just followed the template but swapped genders.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

That's an archetype for you. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

10 hours ago, TGP said:

I'm not really a Friends fan but I wondered if you guys would check out my latest composition in the spirit of Steve Reich's early tape pieces, which I call "How You Doin."  This seems like a good place for it.  Please enjoy.

 

http://picosong.com/wcEhT/

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, TGP said:

What does that have to do with my new piece. 

How you doin?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Yet you didn't comments on the convenience of Luke's abilities at all!

 

Sexist!

[Chen G. 3,950]

5 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Sexist!

 

Hey! 

 

Where was that when I objected to equality-of-outcome of the cast in these films going forward; or when I lamented that these "strong female characters" aren't being sexualized? 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So you think strong female characters should be sexualised?????

Manpig!

[Chen G. 3,950]

I don’t think they should. But mostly I don’t think they shouldn’t be.

 

Appreciating the female form, as well as a woman’s mental faculties are not mutually exclusive.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Chen is Jim Cameron.

[Mattris 416]

So far, most have complimented The Last Jedi's technical achievements - but not many have praised its story and character arcs, which are the most important aspects of a film.

 

Arpy and The Illustrious Jerry, please explain why you think this post of mine is wrong:

 

As the president of Lucasfilm, the buck stops with Kathleen Kennedy, who is responsible for approving the stories that get made into films, as well as the hiring/firing of directors. Her selfishness and ignorance has caused Star Wars films to be made that are underwhelming, unworthy, or just plain suck. The Last Jedi is black mark on the franchise and has divided the fan-base between those who want to like it and those who realize it's terrible.

 

You're right. Rian Johnson's behavior, in general, is disrespectful, and he is delusional.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 10:32 AM, John said:

It's an awkwardly executed scene, sure, but I fail to see how it's any more ludicrous than, say, Luke falling thousands of stories and miraculously surviving in Empire, or Kylo Ren getting shot by Chewie's bowcaster in Awakens and not getting blown back forty feet.

 

"More ludicrous" is putting it lightly. The bridge was missiled. Leia was sucked into space and rendered unconscious. Her ship continued moving thousands of km/hr, with maximum acceleration. The movie implies that she was in space for roughly 30 seconds. I can accept that the Force wanted to keep her alive (or she was able to summon the power to keep herself alive). But in the time that she remained 'unconscious', her ship would have become a tiny spec in the distance. Yet she just Force pulls (Mary Poppins floats) back over a distance that looks to be only 1 km.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 2:23 PM, Docteur Qui said:

A Mary Sue is a self-insert female character who is portrayed as flawless and admired by every single person who interacts with them. Rey is not a Mary Sue.

 

List Rey's personal flaws, if you please.

 

On 09/06/2018 at 2:53 PM, Sharky said:

 

The problem is he presents himself here as a sort of self-appointed spokesperson for that community, a benign vector transmitting virulent ideas.

 

Sounds like Rian Johnson!

 

On 09/06/2018 at 2:56 PM, Docteur Qui said:

 

Her strengths are no more convenient than Luke's, or Anakin's. Ace pilot and natural warrior who's resourceful and strong in the Force? That's your Star Wars protagonist. They just followed the template but swapped genders.

 

Anakin was portrayed as being created by the Force. Luke was his son and earned his strengths/powers (with weeks of training from Yoda and other experiences) over the course of three films, spanning years.

 

Conversely, Rey is shown resisting a Force-mind-probing, Force-mind-reads the mind-reader, pilots and fixes an old ship, mind-controls a Stormtrooper, summons a lightsaber while Kylo Ren was attempting the same feat, and proceeds to defeat him in a lightsaber duel. She then is able to hold her own against professionally-trained guardsmen* and Force-lifts dozens of boulders. All this in a matter of days, with only a couple of hours of 'training' from an extremely disillusioned Luke Skywalker. Not quite the same "template", if you ask me.

 

* Though, not really. The last guard Rey defeated had two sabers, one of which he could used to stab her... but it was digitally removed (mid-fight). Embarrassing work from the choreography/editing departments.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Who cares. The prequels are the only ones that matter.

[John 2,032]

28 minutes ago, Mattris said:

"More ludicrous" is putting it lightly. The bridge was missiled. Leia was sucked into space and rendered unconscious. Her ship continued moving thousands of km/hr, with maximum acceleration. The movie implies that she was in space for roughly 30 seconds. In that amount of time, her ship would be a tiny spec in the distance. Yet she just Force pulls (Mary Poppins floats) back over a distance that looks to be about 1 km.

 

Arguing about the feasibility of certain things happening in a fictional universe about space wizards is a pointless endeavor. Out of any fictional series, Star Wars is likely the worst offender in terms of violating the laws of physics and nature.

 

If you're going to nitpick the Leia scene in The Last Jedi, you're gonna have to nitpick the fact that if Leia knew the Falcon was rigged with a tracking device in A New Hope, why didn't they just jump to lightspeed someplace far from the base, rendezvous with a rebel starship, and leave Han?

 

Or what about the use of ion cannons in the Star Wars universe? If a few rounds from one of those can cripple a Star Destroyer in The Empire Strikes Back, why didn't the Empire use more of them against the rebels?

 

And while we're at it, let's nitpick the fact that Luke was able to leave the Hoth system with no trouble at all, while the rest of the rebels had to get through an Imperial blockade.

 

You see where I'm going with this?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Why the hell didn't they just use spaceships to attack the Rebel base? Slow moving metallic dogs? WTF? Just send those bombers that they used in the asteroid field.

 

Don't get me started on Vader's plan to freeze Luke. WTF?

 

Empire is a seriously stupid movie but it's also a popcorn space opera for kids.

[Arpy 4,145]

Mattress is asking us to apply nerdy scrutiny to what is essentially a children's film (family inc.) that's designed to sell toys. TLJ isn't perfect, the OT that we all know and love isn't perfect, but we don't judge them on their capacity to be logically sound, we enjoy them for what we take away from them, the characters, the themes etc.

 

 

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

I believe I had said earlier @Mattris that as much authority that Kathleen Kennedy has, she doesn't write these movies. She doesn't shoot these movies. She doesn't direct these movies. She produces them, for whatever that's worth nowadays. You take everything you hate about these new movies and pin it on Kathleen, just because she's easy to scapegoat, her being president of Lucasfilm and all. I'm not saying she doesn't contribute to the movies. SW movies are a group effort. There's a cast and a crew, and if you don't like how they've meshed cinematically as of late, it's wrong to hate it out on one person. We can accept you don't like the movies, we just don't like you trashing them and their authoritative people with sexist comments and a narrow mind.

[Mattris 416]

20 hours ago, John said:

 

Arguing about the feasibility of certain things happening in a fictional universe about space wizards is a pointless endeavor. Out of any fictional series, Star Wars is likely the worst offender in terms of violating the laws of physics and nature.

 

If you're going to nitpick the Leia scene in The Last Jedi, you're gonna have to nitpick the fact that if Leia knew the Falcon was rigged with a tracking device in A New Hope, why didn't they just jump to lightspeed someplace far from the base, rendezvous with a rebel starship, and leave Han?

 

Or what about the use of ion cannons in the Star Wars universe? If a few rounds from one of those can cripple a Star Destroyer in The Empire Strikes Back, why didn't the Empire use more of them against the rebels?

 

And while we're at it, let's nitpick the fact that Luke was able to leave the Hoth system with no trouble at all, while the rest of the rebels had to get through an Imperial blockade.

 

You see where I'm going with this?

 

You're arguing individual plot-points. I accept that Star Wars is a fictional universe (the Force, space wizards, etc.). Luke surviving his Cloud City fall was 'the will of the Force' - plus there could have been an updraft to slow his fall. The 'Leia floats back' scene in TLJ a chase at maximum engine speed. I picked up on the physics/distance issue on my first viewing. Considering the way events were shown, I simply cannot suspend disbelief. For this reason, I consider Leia's survival "more ludicrous". (Fun fact: Leia's 'Force floating through space to survive' was Kathleen Kennedy's idea.)

 

In Star Wars, Leia suspected the Falcon was rigged with a tracking device. But Han was piloting and made the decision to go directly to the Rebel base.

 

Ion cannons use a tremulous amount of power. So much so that the power to use them had to be directed from the Hoth base's shields. Perhaps the Star Destroyers didn't have ion cannons.

 

It's possible that Luke flew his X-wing to the other side of Hoth before escaping to space... or the ion cannon did its job, rendering the Imperial 'blockade' ineffectual.

 

19 hours ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

Why the hell didn't they just use spaceships to attack the Rebel base? Slow moving metallic dogs? WTF? Just send those bombers that they used in the asteroid field.

 

Don't get me started on Vader's plan to freeze Luke. WTF?

 

Empire is a seriously stupid movie but it's also a popcorn space opera for kids.

 

I could defend/explain those events in Empire, but as soon as you called it "a seriously stupid movie", I decided it wasn't worth it.

 

I find it sad that anyone would dissect events of the Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back in a attempt to justify problems with The Last Jedi.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's also yet another SW movie with a character commiting suicide for no good reason.

[Mattris 416]

19 hours ago, Arpy said:

Mattress is asking us to apply nerdy scrutiny to what is essentially a children's film (family inc.) that's designed to sell toys. TLJ isn't perfect, the OT that we all know and love isn't perfect, but we don't judge them on their capacity to be logically sound, we enjoy them for what we take away from them, the characters, the themes etc.

 

 

 

You can't just call them "children's films" and dismiss major issues with story-telling and character development.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

I think Padme was assisted suicide, if that's what you mean.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Ooba. Ooba.

[Arpy 4,145]

'Major storytelling issues'? I said the films weren't perfect. Star Wars has a bit of a trashy story to begin with, and to be perfectly honest with you, I wasn't watching for the story alone, but the action setpieces and the escapism that is afforded by not sticking rigidly to contrived plotpoints. The films themselves borrow from historical and fictional archetypes and themes enough so that it's not about the story Lucas presented, so much as it is about the story I chose to take away from those familiar archetypes and themes. 

 

 

[Mattris 416]

5 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

I believe I had said earlier @Mattris that as much authority that Kathleen Kennedy has, she doesn't write these movies. She doesn't shoot these movies. She doesn't direct these movies. She produces them, for whatever that's worth nowadays. You take everything you hate about these new movies and pin it on Kathleen, just because she's easy to scapegoat, her being president of Lucasfilm and all. I'm not saying she doesn't contribute to the movies. SW movies are a group effort. There's a cast and a crew, and if you don't like how they've meshed cinematically as of late, it's wrong to hate it out on one person. We can accept you don't like the movies, we just don't like you trashing them and their authoritative people with sexist comments and a narrow mind.

 

I have a narrow mind? Please explain. Sexist comments? Quote me.

 

As the President of Lucasfilm, Kathleen Kennedy is responsible for approving the stories that get made into films. This means that it is her duty to approve any proposed films' budgets, stories, and screenplays before they go into production. If she doesn't do this, and lets directors like Rian Johnson, do whatever they want, I say this is an even worse problem... and still entirely her responsibility as the President of the company and film production.

 

Mrs. Kennedy is also in charge of hiring/firing directors. In this regard, her track record is utterly horrendous, with Rogue One, Solo, and Episode 9 all undergoing director changes - Rogue One and Solo mid-production. Her shortsightedness to plan the overall direction of these films, as well as her ignorance and/or defiance concerning the passion and desires of Star Wars community has divided the fanbase. The situation has gotten so bad that her fourth film as President is estimated to loose $80 million.

 

How are these problems not Kathleen Kennedy's fault?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

She can't do that! Shoot her! Or something!

[Arpy 4,145]

*gasp

@Mattris Yeah, she approves the stories, just like all of the other creative forces behind the films, executively or not.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 hour ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

It's also yet another SW movie with a character commiting suicide for no good reason.

 

Yeah but that bit was awesome.

[Holko 9,529]

To the space scene: I await the explanation what would stop Leia in her tracks. There is no atmosphere in space to slow the inertia she got from the sudden pressure differnece pushing her out - she had inertia the same direction the ship was going - ergo, she's moving with the ship (probably also slowly away from it but not in the complete opposite direction), not leaving it behind frozen in space.

[Arpy 4,145]

Holko, don't even bother mate, it's all inconsequential.

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

There's also sound in space, and Han and Finn could see the Starkiller blowing up that capital planet in real time.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

To the space scene: I await the explanation what would stop Leia in her tracks. There is no atmosphere in space to slow the inertia she got from the sudden pressure differnece pushing her out - she had inertia the same direction the ship was going - ergo, she's moving with the ship (probably also slowly away from it but not in the complete opposite direction), not leaving it behind frozen in space.

 

The Force?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

10 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

How you doin?

 

Kids are spending the weekend with all 4 grandparents so we've been pretty stoned since Friday afternoon.  Thinking about a sequel piece called "Hello Newman."  Thanks for asking.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

 

The Force?

 

No... daaa Schwartz.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kaseykockroach said:

Out of context that makes absolutely no sense. I don't believe it would with context though either...

[Chen G. 3,950]

4 hours ago, Holko said:

To the space scene: I await the explanation what would stop Leia in her tracks. There is no atmosphere in space to slow the inertia she got from the sudden pressure differnece pushing her out.

 

It’s a fantasy set in space. It’s not a science-fiction movie!

 

Really, my issue with the scene is the fake “OMG, a main character is dead” moment. It’s a cheap trick to get a rise out of the audience.

 

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

Her shortsightedness to plan the overall direction of these films...

 

None of the Star Wars trilogies were ever planned out from the outset. You could make the argument that they should have pulled a Lord of the Rings and shot the whole trilogy as one production under one writer/director/producer - I would even agree, but you can’t say this “making it up as one’s going along” is out-of-character for Star Wars as a series.

[Arpy 4,145]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

I have a narrow mind? Please explain. Sexist comments? Quote me.

 

As the President of Lucasfilm, Kathleen Kennedy is responsible for approving the stories that get made into films. This means that it is her duty to approve any proposed films' budgets, stories, and screenplays before they go into production. If she doesn't do this, and lets directors like Rian Johnson, do whatever they want, I say this is an even worse problem... and still entirely her responsibility as the President of the company and film production.

 

Mrs. Kennedy is also in charge of hiring/firing directors. In this regard, her track record is utterly horrendous, with Rogue One, Solo, and Episode 9 all undergoing director changes - Rogue One and Solo mid-production. Her shortsightedness to plan the overall direction of these films, as well as her ignorance and/or defiance concerning the passion and desires of Star Wars community has divided the fanbase. The situation has gotten so bad that her fourth film as President is estimated to loose $80 million.

 

How are these problems not Kathleen Kennedy's fault?

They hired Trevorrow with good intentions, a good working relationship after Jurassic World's success but after The Book of Henry flopped miserably, Kennedy saved us a bullet by canning him. In the case of Solo, it was Lawrence Kasdan who was responsible in the original two directors' removal. 

 

Don't forget, they had asked Abrams back for the next two, but had to look elsewhere when he left.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

13 hours ago, Mattris said:

So far, most have complimented The Last Jedi's technical achievements - but not many have praised its story and character arcs, which are the most important aspects of a film.

 

I laid down at least 5 reasons that I like the film - almost all of which had to do with story and character - and which at least 7 other people agreed with. Stop ignoring posts that aren't fitting your little head-canon about who does or does not like a kid's film. You're getting desperate.

 

 

13 hours ago, Mattris said:

List Rey's personal flaws, if you please.

 

Ok. Here's where I'm calling you out. You spent a good amount of previous posts complaining how all of the male characters in TLJ are flawed, and now you're dismissing the main female character in this series as not flawed enough? The level of hypocrisy coming from you is staggering. Where are your complaints about Luke not being flawed in the OT? Why is he not also a Mary Sue? Why is Anakin - who successfully destroys an entire space station the first time he flies into space - not an overpowered, genius Mary Sue either? Because they are male characters, and for some reason you don't hold the writing of male characters to the same standard as female characters. This is sexism and why people have been calling you out.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think Rey is the most interesting character. She has few major flaws, but again, that's the archetype of the hero. Her personal insecurities about her lineage and her naive view of the world colour her character and create drama, but like Luke the majority of the conflict is from an external place. Ridley's performance however is hypnotic and charismatic.

[SteveMc 2,674]

41 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

Where are your complaints about Luke not being flawed in the OT? Why is he not also a Mary Sue? Why is Anakin - who successfully destroys an entire space station the first time he flies into space - not an overpowered, genius Mary Sue either?

Luke was more of a stock character.  Anakin was rather poorly written all around.

Rey is more an individualistic character, so must be held to a higher standard.  What happens to Luke is interesting.  As you say, Rey is interesting as a person.  Thus, the way she is written must be held to a higher standard.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

9 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

Luke was more of a stock character.  Anakin was rather poorly written all around.

Rey is more an individualistic character, so must be held to a higher standard.  What happens to Luke is interesting.  As you say, Rey is interesting as a person.  Thus, the way she is written must be held to a higher standard.

 

I actually said she wasn't particularly interesting, however Ridley's portrayal of her is. I don't disagree that characters in general should be held to a higher standard, but some consistency should be observed, especially if you're unfavourably comparing elements that have been present in the series since day one.