When you listen to Shore’s LOTR scores, which version do you listen to?

[gkgyver 1,645]

On 12/1/2020 at 12:10 AM, WampaRat said:

Not a lot of love for the Symphony it seems. Just finished listening to it since it had been a while. I think it’s a fantastic suite of all three score highlights. But the performance is a bit ...different...than the actual film scores. 
 

Has anyone tried to recreate the symphony’s selection of cues by cutting together the ost/CRs for the sake of better performances?

 

Shore made tweaks to the live symphony after it was recorded anyway, so I don't think it's possible to do that. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Film versions

[KK 3,307]

4 hours ago, Quintus said:

In fact there's so much great music absent on the OST that one could quite effortlessly compile an alternative OST album just out of that originally unincluded cue content. Possibly even a third alternate, such is the sheer wealth of fine musical storytelling in the myriad of cues written for the film. 

 

This. Having just recently listened to the OSTs, both FOTR and TTT do an immense injustice to the fantastic wealth of musical material found in the CRs, especially the former. I think a much stronger OST presentation (or two) could easily be derived from the CRs for those who don't want to invest 2.5 hours on an album (which is a fair enough point).

[Thor 7,508]

6 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

But I think it's very unreasonable to continually insist that for for a project with hours and hours of music, with tapestries of themes, that only (say) an hour of music is ever needed, and that nothing should ever be added to it.

 

For you, perhaps. But "what is needed" is a purely subjective thing anyway. I don't think it's up to you or anyone else to tell me what I need or don't need.

 

All the LOTR OSTs are way up there, 70 minutes plus. That's a LOT of music for a single musical work. Even if the amount of music in the film is 150-200 minutes or whatever it is, 70 minutes is more than enough to create a representational selection of the highlights, but still work as a tight and listener-friendly experience.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

I don't think it's up to you or anyone else to tell me what I need or don't need.

 

This goes both ways. Your comments often imply (whether you mean to or not) that truncated OSTs should be sufficient for the rest of us too.

[Thor 7,508]

1 minute ago, Richard Penna said:

This goes both ways. Your comments often imply that truncated OSTs should be sufficient for the rest of us too.

 

I've never said that. They're right for me, and I have a whole lotta reasons for why I consider it the best way to present soundtracks. But I wouldn't describe your preference as 'unreasonable' simply because it doesn't align with my own.

[blondheim 1,157]

LOTR is like an opera, this is one case where I do not prefer highlights. In the same way I would not want a collection of scenes for Der Ring

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

9 minutes ago, Thor said:

The FOTR OST is way up there

 

Fixed!

[Richard Penna 3,694]

32 minutes ago, Thor said:

All the LOTR OSTs are way up there, 70 minutes plus. That's a LOT of music for a single musical work. Even if the amount of music in the film is 150-200 minutes or whatever it is, 70 minutes is more than enough to create a representational selection of the highlights, but still work as a tight and listener-friendly experience.

 

I agree 100%. The OSTs are perfect (well, mostly, as already discussed) at giving a representation of the score, although I'd challenge the idea that particularly for an extensive musical work (even bigger than LotR for example), 70 mins is really giving you that representation.

 

I don't think from your past comments that you're really worried about 'everything' being represented because you're making these same comments about 70 (or whatever) minutes from works that have even 10 times that amount of music.

 

I was astounded when McCreary included only a couple of tracks from several entire seasons of TWD. If someone were actually satisfied with that amount, then I'd question why they were even buying the release.

[Thor 7,508]

I think of it this way. While the films have a considerable amount of music, it's not all different music. A lot of it consists of repetiton, since the film invariably moves back to particular settings and characters with regular intervals. As such, you can end up with, say, 40 minutes of 'ork' music in total, if not more. If I were to listen to 40 minutes of ork music on an album, I would go completely insane. Instead, you compress it to, let's say, 10-15 minutes; a representational selection (THE TWO TOWERS has more of this dark music than the other two, so it makes sense that it's represented with more material). That allows space for other parts of the music, let's say of the more mystical or ethereal kind. When you have something from all, or most, 'sounds' and styles represented, you create a flow that lets it move from one to the other organically.

 

I think Shore succeeded wonderfully with this in his OSTs, although I'm no big fan of TTT (but again, that may have more to do with the nature of the music in that film than the actual structure of the album).

[Richard Penna 3,694]

(You might be referring to stuff I've deleted - I've been rewriting my post  )

[Thor 7,508]

No, I think I got across what I wanted to say. I maintain that 70 minutes is more than enough time to create a representational selection of a 200-minute score of this kind.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I'd agree with that, yes.

 

You need to allow room to scale that up according to the size of the work though. If you're looking for a representation of a TV series (like TWD, as  mentioned above), a listening experience along the lines you're looking for is losing representation fast. The amount of material you're excising gets so gargantuan that you're not really listening to the work any more.

 

(I know we're mainly talking LotR, but I'm trying to clarify your 'representational' viewpoint  )

[blondheim 1,157]

I agree with Thor, with scores that have much repetition. However, the LOTR is very complex, the musical themes go through many counterpoints and verge on other themes, the growth of this only being evident in the full work. If that doesn't matter, no biggie. But for example, there is the moment in Mt. Doom where Frodo claims the ring and all the various ring themes play at once, in an incredible minute I would never be without

 

Like Wagner's Ring I mentioned, of course one can just listen to the highlights, and I often do, but well-constructed as they are, you won't be able to hear the progression of these themes and motives the way they are intended. In LOTR, slowly becoming entirely new themes as we reach the Fourth age.

 

Also, Howard Shore believes the CRs are the way to go. When Williams says we don't need more, I mostly defend him and if Shore were saying that, I may feel differently about this. But the book, the interviews, the work that went into this... this is important to him. So it is important to me

[Thor 7,508]

4 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

You need to allow room to scale that up according to the size of the work though. If you're looking for a representation of a TV series (like TWD, as  mentioned above), a listening experience along the lines you're looking for is losing representation fast. The amount of material you're excising gets so gargantuan that you're not really listening to the work any more.

 

Sure, but one needs to look at the nature of the score too, not just the length in minutes. Hence my example of 40 minutes of ork music earlier. You can create a musical narrative that tells the same "ork story" in 10 minutes on album. You don't necessarily need 40 minutes worth of variations of that material -- nor a periodic return to that music throughout, as the movie moves back to those locales. At least I don't need it.

 

Incidentally, the TCM release of BEN HUR suffers from this, with endless tracks of grating 'rowing music' midway. A single track, maybe two, would have sufficed to get the musical point across.

[Quintus 5,399]

The big flaw in Thor's philosophy or attitude towards OSTs has always been his immovable assertion that the producer's first or original release is always the optimal one; that the composers or producers never make mistakes or misjudgements in the selection, that the first presentation of a given score can only ever be considered the one true "experimental" album release, that it is impossible for there to have ever been a superior cue configuration than the one first put together, as if its assembly were guided by Gaia herself and thus nothing else matters in all of the universe. 

[Richard Penna 3,694]

4 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

Sure, but one needs to look at the nature of the score too, not just the length in minutes. Hence my example of 40 minutes of ork music earlier. You can create a musical narrative that tells the same "ork story" in 10 minutes on album. You don't necessarily need 40 minutes worth of variations of that material -- and a period return to that music throughout, just as the movie moves back to those locales. At least I don't need it.

 

You know, I actually went through that consideration when I dumped the Kingdom of Heaven sessions for the OST. I went through the album on Spotify, and thought, if the album has at least one instance of that battle ostinato I liked, and a few nice choral bits, then I'm happy, and I don't care which bits of the film they're from.

 

I mean, I added one track from the sessions that I rather liked, but yes, I was looking for that same representation you look for.

 

That's a rare example for me though, and down to me not having seen the film. If I watched the film and really liked the music in context, all that goes out the window  

[Thor 7,508]

7 minutes ago, Quintus said:

The big flaw in Thor's philosophy or attitude towards OSTs has always been his unmovable assertion that the producer's first or original release is always the optimal one; that the composers or producers never make mistakes in the selection, that the first presentation of a given score can only ever be considered the one true "experimental" album release, that it is impossible for there to have ever been a superior cue configuration than the one first put together, as if its assembly were guided by Gaia herself and thus nothing else matters in all of the universe. 

 

Actually, that is a very common misconception. I've never claimed an OST, or a socalled arranged & abbreviated release, is "untouchable perfection". It can be subject to criticism like everything else. See my BEN HUR example above. Or, in fact, quite a few of the reviews I write. But I require that there has been a curated selection from the get-go in order for me to consider it a proper soundtrack album. Once that has taken place, I can evaluate it as good or bad.

[Quintus 5,399]

And then it is hewn into rock and sank 100ft into the ground, a time capsule of indestructible Thor final word to be unearthed in a thousand years. 

 

You missed my point, btw. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

18 minutes ago, Thor said:

Incidentally, the TCM release of BEN HUR suffers from this, with endless tracks of grating 'rowing music' midway. A single track, maybe two, would have sufficed to get the musical point across.

 

TCM? Didn't that come from inferior sources? Better get Sony's two-disc version.  

[Thor 7,508]

48 minutes ago, Quintus said:

You missed my point, btw. 

 

Did I? I thought I answered it pretty succinctly. I've never made "an unmovable assertion that the producer's first or original release is always the optimal one; that the composers or producers never make mistakes in the selection". That's a strawman. I almost always prefer OSTs over expanded releases, but OSTs aren't infallible by default. A great deal of over-long James Horner albums are a good example.

 

43 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

TCM? Didn't that come from inferior sources? Better get Sony's two-disc version.  

 

I'm looking to replace my TCM with one of those ol' LP rerecordings. I think they're about 40-50 minutes, and a more even representation of material. There's too little of the religious stuff on the TCM, and it's too heavy on the chromatic action/suspense stuff (and all squeezed together in big chunks). I'd like this one:

 

http://img.soundtrackcollector.com/cd/large/Ben_hur_PFS4394.jpg

[artguy360 1,843]

I love the complete recording for FOTR. I think it is just about perfect. But I also love The Prophecy from the OST so I have a playlist that starts with that track then basically is the complete recording the rest of the way.

 

Two Towers and Return of the King I mix the OST and complete recordings more because of the underscore in both are a bit more filler and less interesting. Plus, they're just really long scores!

Also, sorry for the double post but I really don't like it when Gandalf mumbles some tune in my ear while I'm trying to enjoy the score. I omit that track from my custom playlist as well.

 

I'm not a fan of Aragorn doing it either, but in ROTK that moment is pretty much unavoidable and flows really well, at least.

[blondheim 1,157]

I am alone in enjoying the bits of songs?

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

36 minutes ago, Thor said:

I'm looking to replace my TCM with one of those ol' LP rerecordings. I think they're about 40-50 minutes, and a more even representation of material. There's too little of the religious stuff on the TCM, and it's too heavy on the chromatic action/suspense stuff (and all squeezed together in big chunks). I'd like this one:

 

http://img.soundtrackcollector.com/cd/large/Ben_hur_PFS4394.jpg

 

I:ve got that one, in the most recent edition (on Australian Eloquence). It covers most of the highlights.

[Holko 9,526]

1 hour ago, blondheim said:

I am alone in enjoying the bits of songs?

Hell no you aren't!

[Chen G. 3,949]

Indeed! What’s an opera without the people on the stage singing, too?

[Jay 37,369]

I really really dislike how the cast recordings are integrated into the CRs.  I think they are wonderful in the films and would have appreciated having them as bonus tracks but it's a bummer we still don't have the instrumental music under them clean to wipe them from our custom versions of the CRs if we wanted to

[Holko 9,526]

I think many of them where Shore actively wanted them to just underline and work around the sung melody would be pretty weak or at least uninteresting on their own.

[Jay 37,369]

True, but it might sound better than fading out before the singing and fading back up after

[Quintus 5,399]

I really like the Gandalf singing (ironically this is the one cue I replaced with something from the OST), but I'm not big on the Bilbo and Aragorn parts, outside of the film. 

[Jay 37,369]

I like every bit of cast singing when watching the films, but when trying to enjoy Shore's score I feel they detract from the experience rather than enhance it

[Quintus 5,399]

I enjoy the Gandalf one on the CRs because it harmonically fits the cue. The other two are redundant in this regard. 

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I think it's one of the side effects of making the CRs a mass market product. They don't quite get it right for either audience (score fans or the general public).

[Jay 37,369]

Yep

[Richard Penna 3,694]

To be honest, I don't think you'd change a massive amount to make the CRs 'speciality' releases. While FotR needs a bit of rework to make it the 'intended' score, you'd just dump the cast vocals and add a disc for each score that expanded upon what's in the rarities, and focused more on inclusion than playability for alternates.

[blondheim 1,157]

The LOTR books are littered with these little songs, which I always wrote the melodies for myself while I read them, so I feel they add to the authenticity of the experience. I have a feeling Shore would agree and that it was not studio pressure

[Jay 37,369]

Just now, blondheim said:

The LOTR books are littered with these little songs, which I always wrote the melodies for myself while I read them, so I feel they add to the authenticity of the experience.

 

Sure, and I love them in the books as much as I love them in the movies

 

Just now, blondheim said:

I have a feeling Shore would agree and that it was not studio pressure

 

Sure, but I disagree with him about the best way to present his music in more ways than this as well

[blondheim 1,157]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Sure, but I disagree with him about the best way to present his music in more ways than this as well

 

I would like to know your thoughts on how they could have been improved. Not in a combative way, I just consider them very highly and am curious.

 

Mainly, is there anything you would change other than including the alternates, which I hear people pining for but doesn't matter all that much to me. A set of all alternates would be fine but I would hate them in the main program, even tacked on to the end. I hate the bonus tracks on the special edition Hobbits, I have just made peace with them

[Chen G. 3,949]

43 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

add a disc for each score that expanded upon what's in the rarities, and focused more on inclusion than playability for alternates.

 

I said it before, but they could have gone with a release scheme that started with the Fellowship CR, then the Two Towers CR, THEN a CR of just alternates, and then conclude with the Return of the King.

 

But again, I'm more than happy with what I have.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

A 15 minutes suite for each three movies would have been great.

[Jay 37,369]

17 minutes ago, blondheim said:

 

I would like to know your thoughts on how they could have been improved. Not in a combative way, I just consider them very highly and am curious.

 

Mainly, is there anything you would change other than including the alternates, which I hear people pining for but doesn't matter all that much to me. A set of all alternates would be fine but I would hate them in the main program, even tacked on to the end. I hate the bonus tracks on the special edition Hobbits, I have just made peace with them

 

The FOTR CR is more or less an isolated score of the EE cut of the film (complete with tracking, dropped cues or sections of cues, and almost inaudible choir mix at times), with only some dropped music restored, and also bars Shore found to be "repetitive" are trimmed out; They didn't build a new program from the session recordings, they just took the EE music stem and souped it up a bit.  TTT and ROTK are properly built from the unedited session recordings and he didn't trim bars out, but have their own curiosities, like TTT including the alternate music for Frodo and Sam at the beginning that was on the OST even though the revised film version is also there too, and ROTK has both versions of the House of Healing song for some reason.  Plus all 3 have the cast recordings mixed in and crossfaded over the score cues of course.  And I personally don't think he did the music any favors by combining lots of cues together to make longer tracks.

 

So in addition to FOTR being rebuilt from scratch properly with all the music Shore originally intended, I would have had each release come with its own bonus disc of all the versions of cues that weren't used in the film (even if they had already been released on the OST or fan club credits).  Basically, the MIke Matessino / Neil Bulk treatment that gets done to most other film scores these days deserve to be done to the LOTR trilogy too.

[blondheim 1,157]

I didn't know that about Fellowship, that is interesting. The other things concern me less, but I see why others would agree with you.

 

I always prefer longer cues. I am a huge fan of 30-minute movements to symphonies, and loathe seeing anything chopped up for convenience. I am the kind of person who listens to Mahler's Eight as only two tracks. Even the new E.T. release's finale bothered me at first but the presentation of the entire set is so good, that it would be silly and possibly even ungrateful to harp about that. I would hate to see the Ultimate War divided into pieces though.

 

We've already established that I like the singing.

 

While Shore signing off on them doesn't mean they are perfect, composer approval still means a lot to me. However, now I am slightly curious to see what could be done with a sessions remaster of Fellowship. How do we know this? I am assuming Doug Adams. Do we have any more information as to why? Also, was anything done to the sound for the blu-ray re-releases at all? I had assumed not.

 

I am more than fine with what we have, especially if Shore is, but I would not turn away more definitive releases, so long as alternates were relegated to separate discs. If they filled out the 4th disc of ROTK for example, I would pass. I would not buy any LOTR release that didn't allow the score proper to end correctly. But if it is what others want, I hope they get it. More is more, imo

[Richard Penna 3,694]

It seems odd to me that you'd base a purchasing decision so strongly on the layout of the music on the discs, and not the overall content.

 

40 minutes ago, Jay said:

like TTT including the alternate music for Frodo and Sam at the beginning that was on the OST even though the revised film version is also there too

 

I don't really see much to be bothered about with examples like that, of including alternates within the same track - as long as all the music is there and it plays well.

 

Crossfading - with you there. Cues that aren't connected in the film shouldn't be joined on album.

 

Really, my only issue with the current releases is the alternates and theatrical versions that would have been included had this been a speciality release. The BotF alternate is the pinnacle of this - it's astonishing that it's not available to hear as a standalone music track anywhere.

[blondheim 1,157]

I put a disc into my stereo like an old person and play it til it is done. I don't mind Bilbo's Song because Shore wants it there. But I think Thrain ending BOTFA is just wrong and soured the experience for me for quite a while. In order to get the score to end where it was likely intended, I would need to program my stereo or watch closely enough to stop it before it jumps to the next track and spoils the silence.

 

I don't expect anyone else to be this nitpicky, this is just the method to my madness. I don't mind re-releases including the OST and then alternates on the second disc because there is already a version that ends without them, and I will already have it if I care about the score. This is just one case where I care enough to buy a new definitive release if it didn't, so I hope it doesn't. But I don't begrudge the enjoyment of anyone who doesn't care so much

[Bilbo 3,709]

All of them at once I suppose. 

[Jay 37,369]

On 12/7/2020 at 12:31 PM, blondheim said:

I didn't know that about Fellowship, that is interesting. The other things concern me less, but I see why others would agree with you.

 

I always prefer longer cues. I am a huge fan of 30-minute movements to symphonies, and loathe seeing anything chopped up for convenience. I am the kind of person who listens to Mahler's Eight as only two tracks.

 

I have nothing against longer cues whatsoever, nor do I have a problem with long tracks if they contain cues that were written to purposely continue into one another as a long sequence.  But the LOTR CRs often combine cues that were never meant to overlap at all in the same track.  For just one example, take the FOTR CR track "Balin's Tomb".  We get the gorgeous music for the group entering the big room, and then the music begins to build tension as Gandalf starts reading Balin's journal and Pippin approaches the skeleton in the well.   Next comes over a minute of unscored scenes as the skeleton tumbles down, the group catch their breath thinking they got away with it, until the drumming starts..... then the next cue begins as they prepare for battle. 

 

In this CR track however, at the 3:00 mark we just jump right from the tension building before the well drop cue right to the battle prep cue.  This would have been a good spot to let the first cue fully ring out and feature some silence as we end one track to let the weight of the moment sink in, and then begin the next track with the tense battle prep music. 

 

Now continuing on, the battle prep cue builds and builds as they get ready, draw their weapons, find a way to barricade the doors, etc... then the music awesomely ends as the orcs barge in, and several minutes of unscored battle scenes then happen.  The next cue only underscores the end of the big battle, but in the CR track at the 4:07 mark we just jump right from the battle prep cue immediately into the end of the battle cue.

 

Basically it's kind of weird to me to create this 8 1/2 minute track that starts with gorgeous scene-setting music and eventually becomes an action track when all the cues that get you there aren't even joined in the film and keeping them separated would increase the power of them by letting the intended space between them make each piece more powerful.

 

 

Quote

Even the new E.T. release's finale bothered me at first but the presentation of the entire set is so good, that it would be silly and possibly even ungrateful to harp about that. I would hate to see the Ultimate War divided into pieces though.

 

For me the end the ET finale I think it's all psychological.  If you just pop disc 1 of the LLL set in and press play and aren't looking at the display, it won't even really register that "Departure" is now a separate track from the Bike Chase music; the weight of the ending is the same regardless of how much space there is between the end of one and the start of the next IMO.  There's no specific segue written into these compositions, the film just begins the second cue while the first is still fading out.

 

For The Ultimate War I completely agree the best way to listen to it is one continuous track of music, not chopped up at all; My personal edit is a 21 1/2 minute track that actually starts with the "Tink Grows Up" cue and ends with "The End of Hook" cue

 

Quote

How do we know this? 

 

How do we know that the FOTR CR contains the same tracking the film does? Because... it does!

 

For one small example, take the track "The Caverns of Isengard".  From 0:43-0:48 is the music for just before Aragorn throws the torch at the final Ringwraith and saving the day.  However, this isn't the music Shore wrote and recorded for this moment; Peter Jackson dropped it from the film and replaced it with music tracked in music from earlier in the same cue (0:06-0:11 of this track) instead.  The actual music Shore recorded for this moment turned up in the Two Towers video game and you can see it synced back to the film footage here.  

 

For a much more important example, let's take a look at "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe", specifically the music heard from 4:00-5:19.  This is the music for the scene where Gandalf is sitting alone in Bag End pondering on the ring, whispers "riddles in the dark", Frodo comes in and picks up the ring as Gandalf says "my precious", and the History of the Ring theme plays to end the scene.  Well, this isn't what Shore wrote for this scene, and it isn't even a rescore PJ requested; It's just music tracked in from "Parth Galen" (0:00-1:13 of that track).  The music Shore actually wrote and recorded for this scene (using Gollum's Theme) was on the OST album, opening up the track "Shadow of the Past".  You can see Shore's cue synced back to the footage here.

 

Just a few minutes later in the film, when Gandalf is talking to Frodo after the fire reveals the writing on the ring, that same exact passage from "Parth Galen" is tracked in again as Gandalf talks about Sauron covering all the lands in a second darkness and how the ring wants to return to its master.  Once again the CR releases retains that film tracking, in the "The Conspiracy Unmasked" track from 2:00-3:39, instead of the actual cue Shore wrote and recorded for the scene, which uses the Footsteps of Doom.  This turned up in the costume documentary on the DVD, and you can hear it synced back to the footage here.

 

Finally I want to point out something that isn't tracking on the CR, but rather dialing-out that wasn't restored, because it is one of my favorite moments from the entire score: A brilliant, elongated rendition of the Seduction of the Ring theme as Aragorn agrees to let Frodo go at the end of the movie.  In the final film, Peter Jackson completely dialed out the ending of the cue Shore Shore wrote, having the Seduction of the Ring theme effectively stop the moment Aragorn closes Frodo's hand over the ring.  This works great in the film, but man on CD I wish we could have gotten the full proper ending of the cue Shore wrote, because it is brilliant.  It also turned up in the Two Towers video game, and you can can hear it synced back to the film footage here (watch from 1:30-end to get the full effect, 2:02-end is the part PJ dialed out)

 

These are just 4 examples of tracking and film edits being retained on the FOTR CR, there are many, many more examples.

 

On 12/7/2020 at 12:31 PM, blondheim said:

Do we have any more information as to why?

 

I cannot imagine a world where anyone who worked on this release admits to it, but it is clear to me that they simply started the CR project by taking the music stem of the EE film and chopping it up into tracks and going form there.  Luckily, they changed methods and built TTT and ROTK properly from the session files instead of only grabbing dropped music from those. 

 

As for why?  Maybe they thought it was easier and/or didn't notice all the tracking?  Who knows.  It's kind of messed up to hear the same minute of "Parth Galen" in two back to back tracks on disc 1 after you already hear the re-recording of it for the new Prologue to open the same disc, when Shore only wrote it for one scene at the end of the movie....

 

On 12/7/2020 at 12:31 PM, blondheim said:

Also, was anything done to the sound for the blu-ray re-releases at all? I had assumed not.

 

Are you asking about blu ray releases of the films themselves, or the re-releases of the CRs that moved the 5.1 mixes from DVD-Audio discs to be BD discs instead?  If the latter, the music is identical to what was on the old discs, just on a different disc format.

 

Quote

I am more than fine with what we have, especially if Shore is, but I would not turn away more definitive releases, so long as alternates were relegated to separate discs. If they filled out the 4th disc of ROTK for example, I would pass. I would not buy any LOTR release that didn't allow the score proper to end correctly. But if it is what others want, I hope they get it. More is more, imo

 

Well that's the goofy thing about the ROTK CR releases - it didn't need to be 4 CDs at all, the amount of music easily fits onto 3.  And if they had done so, it actually would have been at better natural points in the score to swap discs than the 4 disc structure they went with.

 

They released it as:

 

Spoiler

Disc 1:

1. Roots and Beginnings 6:31

2. Journey to the Crossroads 2:17

3. The Road to Isengard 2:18

4. The Foot of Orthanc 4:45

5. Return to Edoras 1:51

6. The Chalice Passed 1:51

7. The Green Dragon (feat. Billy Boyd & Dominic Monaghan) 0:35

8. Gollum's Villainy 2:10

9. Éowyn's Dream 1:24

10. The Palantir 3:10

11. Flight from Edoras 2:18

12. The Grace of Undómiel (feat. Renée Fleming) 6:21

13. The Eyes of the White Tower 4:34

14. A Coronet of Silver 8:27

15. The Lighting of the Beacon 9:03

Disc Time: 57:35

 

Disc 2:

1. Osgilliath Invaded (feat. Ben Del Maestro) 8:47

2. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol 2:41

3. Allegiance to Denethor 3:20

4. The Sacrifice of Faramir (feat. Billy Boyd) 4:08

5. The Parting of Sam and Frodo 4:04

6. Marshalling at Dunharrow 4:57

7. Andúril - Flame of the West 3:28

8. The Passing of the Grey Company 4:12

9. Dwimorberg - The Haunted Mountain 2:26

10. Master Meriadoc, Swordthain 1:40

11. The Paths of the Dead 6:22

12. The Siege of Gondor 9:01
13. Shelob's Lair 8:53

14. Merry's Simple Courage 2:09

Disc Time: 66:08

 

Disc 3:

1. Grond - The Hammer of the Underworld 1:33

2. Shelob the Great 5:13

3. The Tomb of the Stewards 3:58

4. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields 4:10

5. The Pyre of Denethor 2:59

6. The Mûmakil 0:57

7. Dernhelm in Battle 2:06

8. "A Far Green Country" 1:28

9. Shieldmaiden of Rohan 5:07

10. The Passing of Théoden 2:16

11. The Houses of Healing (feat. Liv Tyler) 2:58

12. The Tower of Cirith Ungol 4:41

13. The Last Debate (feat. Sissel) 4:21

14. The Land of Shadow 6:30

15. The Mouth of Sauron 8:15

16. "For Frodo" 3:17

Disc Time: 59:49

 

Disc 4:

1. Mount Doom (feat. Renée Fleming) 4:09

2. The Crack of Doom 4:02

3. The Eagles (feat. Renée Fleming) 2:24

4. The Fellowship Reunited (feat. Sir James Galway & Viggo Mortensen) 12:18

5. The Journey to the Grey Havens (feat. Sir James Galway) 7:35

6. Elanor (feat. Sir James Galway) 1:28

7. Days of the Ring (feat. Annie Lennox) 11:10

8. Bilbo's Song 2:57

Disc Time: 46:03

 

Total Album Time: 3:49:35

 

But they could have done:

 

Spoiler

Disc 1:

1. Roots and Beginnings 6:31

2. Journey to the Crossroads 2:17

3. The Road to Isengard 2:18

4. The Foot of Orthanc 4:45

5. Return to Edoras 1:51

6. The Chalice Passed 1:51

7. The Green Dragon (feat. Billy Boyd & Dominic Monaghan) 0:35

8. Gollum's Villainy 2:10

9. Éowyn's Dream 1:24

10. The Palantir 3:10

11. Flight from Edoras 2:18

12. The Grace of Undómiel (feat. Renée Fleming) 6:21

13. The Eyes of the White Tower 4:34

14. A Coronet of Silver 8:27

15. The Lighting of the Beacon 9:03

16. Osgilliath Invaded (feat. Ben Del Maestro) 8:47

17. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol 2:41

18. Allegiance to Denethor 3:20

19. The Sacrifice of Faramir (feat. Billy Boyd) 4:08

Disc Time: 1:16:31

 

Disc 2:

1. The Parting of Sam and Frodo 4:04

2. Marshalling at Dunharrow 4:57

3. Andúril - Flame of the West 3:28

4. The Passing of the Grey Company 4:12

5. Dwimorberg - The Haunted Mountain 2:26

6. Master Meriadoc, Swordthain 1:40

7. The Paths of the Dead 6:22

8. The Siege of Gondor 9:01
9. Shelob's Lair 8:53

10. Merry's Simple Courage 2:09

11. Grond - The Hammer of the Underworld 1:33

12. Shelob the Great 5:13

13. The Tomb of the Stewards 3:58

14. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields 4:10

15. The Pyre of Denethor 2:59

16. The Mûmakil 0:57

17. Dernhelm in Battle 2:06

18. "A Far Green Country" 1:28

19. Shieldmaiden of Rohan 5:07

20. The Passing of Théoden 2:16

Disc Time: 1:16:55

 

Disc 3:

1. The Houses of Healing (feat. Liv Tyler) 2:58

2. The Tower of Cirith Ungol 4:41

3. The Last Debate (feat. Sissel) 4:21

4. The Land of Shadow 6:30

5. The Mouth of Sauron 8:15

6. "For Frodo" 3:17

7. Mount Doom (feat. Renée Fleming) 4:09

8. The Crack of Doom 4:02

9. The Eagles (feat. Renée Fleming) 2:24

10. The Fellowship Reunited (feat. Sir James Galway & Viggo Mortensen) 12:18

11. The Journey to the Grey Havens (feat. Sir James Galway) 7:35

12. Elanor (feat. Sir James Galway) 1:28

13. Days of the Ring (feat. Annie Lennox) 11:10

14. Bilbo's Song 2:57

Disc Time: 1:16:09

 

Total Album Time: 3:49:35

 

This makes much more sense to me, with better "end of disc" and "start of disc" moments.  I like how this would have had the entire Pelennor battle  entirely contained on disc 2 as well, instead of being split over 2 discs like it is now.

 

 

So yea, ideally we will someday in the future get a 4CD set of each film, where Discs 1-3 is a "main program" that starts at the beginning and ends at the end, just one version of every cue from start to finish - and then Disc 4 is a bonus disc you can also play if you feel like it, that also starts at the beginning and ends at the end, but contains any alternate version that exists for every cue throughout each score.

Maybe someday...

[blondheim 1,157]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

I have nothing against longer cues whatsoever, nor do I have a problem with long tracks if they contain cues that were written to purposely continue into one another as a long sequence.  But the LOTR CRs often combine cues that were never meant to overlap at all in the same track.  For just one example, take the FOTR CR track "Balin's Tomb".  We get the gorgeous music for the group entering the big room, and then the music begins to build tension as Gandalf starts reading Balin's journal and Pippin approaches the skeleton in the well.   Next comes over a minute of unscored scenes as the skeleton tumbles down, the group catch their breath thinking they got away with it, until the drumming starts..... then the next cue begins as they prepare for battle.  In this CR track however, at the 3:00 mark we just jump right from the tension building before the well drop cue right to the battle prep cue.  This would have been a good spot to let the first cue fully ring out and feature some silence as we end one track to let the weight of the moment sink in, and then begin the next track with the tense battle prep music.  Now continuing on, the battle prep cue builds and builds as they get ready, draw their weapons, find a way to barricade the doors, etc... then the music awesomely ends as the orcs barge in, and several minutes of unscored battle scenes then happen.  The next cue only underscores the end of the big battle, but in the CR track at the 4:07 mark we just jump right from the battle prep cue immediately into the end of the battle cue.

 

Basically it's kind of weird to me to create this 8 1/2 minute track that starts with gorgeous scene-setting music and eventually becomes an action track when all the cues that get you there aren't even joined in the film and keeping them separated would increase the power of them by letting the intended space between them make each piece more powerful.

 

 

For me the end the ET finale I think it's all psychological.  If you just pop disc 1 of the LLL set in and press play and aren't looking at the display, it won't even really register that "Departure" is now a separate track from the Bike Chase music; the weight of the ending is the same regardless of how much space there is between the end of one and the start of the next IMO.  There's no specific segue written into these compositions, the film just begins the second cue while the first is still fading out.

 

For The Ultimate War I completely agree the best way to listen to it is one continuous track of music, not chopped up at all; My personal edit is a 21 1/2 minute track that actually starts with the "Tink Grows Up" cue and ends with "The End of Hook" cue

 

Thanks for the response. It was very detailed, thank you. I was not aware of all of that. I am pulling it out to listen to again to try and hear this for myself. I was so young when they were released, I wasn't quite the audiophile I am now... but it would explain why the FOTR CR is my least favorite of the three. Maybe I picked up on these things subconsciously?

 

I am not bothered when tiny cues are put together for the sake of musicality, although I understand why you would prefer it the other way. I've never had that album experience. Hell, I may prefer it that way. Hopefully someday we'll get to see

 

I agree about the E.T. finale. I have done a lot of blind listening with it. It isn't terrible, I am just so accustomed to the exact length of pause that was there before. So I can always tell I am listening to the new release when there is that extra moment. I have grown to love it in its own way. I definitely wasn't tossing that whole release out on that one minor quibble.

 

How does one go about layering flac files like that? Audacity? Because I need to make a 20+ minute long version of that myself. I swear I would pay the price of an entire album to have that complete and mastered properly as god intended

 

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

I cannot imagine a world where anyone who worked on this release admits to it, but it is clear to me that they simply started the CR project by taking the music stem of the EE film and chopping it up into tracks and going form there.  Luckily, they changed methods and built TTT and ROTK properly from the session files instead of only grabbing dropped music from those. 

 

As for why?  Maybe they thought it was easier and/or didn't notice all the tracking?  Who knows.  It's kind of messed up to hear the same minute of "Parth Galen" in two back to back tracks on disc 1 after you already hear the re-recording of it for the new Prologue to open the same disc, when Shore only wrote it for one scene at the end of the movie....

 

 

Are you asking about blu ray releases of the films themselves, or the re-releases of the CRs that moved the 5.1 mixes from DVD-Audio discs to be BD discs instead?  If the latter, the music is identical to what was on the old discs, just on a different disc format.

 

 

Well that's the goofy thing about the ROTK CR releases - it didn't need to be 4 CDs at all, the amount of music easily fits onto 3.  And if they had done so, it actually would have been at better natural points in the score to swap discs than the 4 disc structure they went with.

 

They released it as:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Disc 1:

1. Roots and Beginnings 6:31

2. Journey to the Crossroads 2:17

3. The Road to Isengard 2:18

4. The Foot of Orthanc 4:45

5. Return to Edoras 1:51

6. The Chalice Passed 1:51

7. The Green Dragon (feat. Billy Boyd & Dominic Monaghan) 0:35

8. Gollum's Villainy 2:10

9. Éowyn's Dream 1:24

10. The Palantir 3:10

11. Flight from Edoras 2:18

12. The Grace of Undómiel (feat. Renée Fleming) 6:21

13. The Eyes of the White Tower 4:34

14. A Coronet of Silver 8:27

15. The Lighting of the Beacon 9:03

Disc Time: 57:35

 

Disc 2:

1. Osgilliath Invaded (feat. Ben Del Maestro) 8:47

2. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol 2:41

3. Allegiance to Denethor 3:20

4. The Sacrifice of Faramir (feat. Billy Boyd) 4:08

5. The Parting of Sam and Frodo 4:04

6. Marshalling at Dunharrow 4:57

7. Andúril - Flame of the West 3:28

8. The Passing of the Grey Company 4:12

9. Dwimorberg - The Haunted Mountain 2:26

10. Master Meriadoc, Swordthain 1:40

11. The Paths of the Dead 6:22

12. The Siege of Gondor 9:01
13. Shelob's Lair 8:53

14. Merry's Simple Courage 2:09

Disc Time: 66:08

 

Disc 3:

1. Grond - The Hammer of the Underworld 1:33

2. Shelob the Great 5:13

3. The Tomb of the Stewards 3:58

4. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields 4:10

5. The Pyre of Denethor 2:59

6. The Mûmakil 0:57

7. Dernhelm in Battle 2:06

8. "A Far Green Country" 1:28

9. Shieldmaiden of Rohan 5:07

10. The Passing of Théoden 2:16

11. The Houses of Healing (feat. Liv Tyler) 2:58

12. The Tower of Cirith Ungol 4:41

13. The Last Debate (feat. Sissel) 4:21

14. The Land of Shadow 6:30

15. The Mouth of Sauron 8:15

16. "For Frodo" 3:17

Disc Time: 59:49

 

Disc 4:

1. Mount Doom (feat. Renée Fleming) 4:09

2. The Crack of Doom 4:02

3. The Eagles (feat. Renée Fleming) 2:24

4. The Fellowship Reunited (feat. Sir James Galway & Viggo Mortensen) 12:18

5. The Journey to the Grey Havens (feat. Sir James Galway) 7:35

6. Elanor (feat. Sir James Galway) 1:28

7. Days of the Ring (feat. Annie Lennox) 11:10

8. Bilbo's Song 2:57

Disc Time: 46:03

 

Total Album Time: 3:49:35

 

But they could have done:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I have nothing against longer cues whatsoever, nor do I have a problem with long tracks if they contain cues that were written to purposely continue into one another as a long sequence.  But the LOTR CRs often combine cues that were never meant to overlap at all in the same track.  For just one example, take the FOTR CR track "Balin's Tomb".  We get the gorgeous music for the group entering the big room, and then the music begins to build tension as Gandalf starts reading Balin's journal and Pippin approaches the skeleton in the well.   Next comes over a minute of unscored scenes as the skeleton tumbles down, the group catch their breath thinking they got away with it, until the drumming starts..... then the next cue begins as they prepare for battle.  In this CR track however, at the 3:00 mark we just jump right from the tension building before the well drop cue right to the battle prep cue.  This would have been a good spot to let the first cue fully ring out and feature some silence as we end one track to let the weight of the moment sink in, and then begin the next track with the tense battle prep music.  Now continuing on, the battle prep cue builds and builds as they get ready, draw their weapons, find a way to barricade the doors, etc... then the music awesomely ends as the orcs barge in, and several minutes of unscored battle scenes then happen.  The next cue only underscores the end of the big battle, but in the CR track at the 4:07 mark we just jump right from the battle prep cue immediately into the end of the battle cue.

 

Basically it's kind of weird to me to create this 8 1/2 minute track that starts with gorgeous scene-setting music and eventually becomes an action track when all the cues that get you there aren't even joined in the film and keeping them separated would increase the power of them by letting the intended space between them make each piece more powerful.

 

 

For me the end the ET finale I think it's all psychological.  If you just pop disc 1 of the LLL set in and press play and aren't looking at the display, it won't even really register that "Departure" is now a separate track from the Bike Chase music; the weight of the ending is the same regardless of how much space there is between the end of one and the start of the next IMO.  There's no specific segue written into these compositions, the film just begins the second cue while the first is still fading out.

 

For The Ultimate War I completely agree the best way to listen to it is one continuous track of music, not chopped up at all; My personal edit is a 21 1/2 minute track that actually starts with the "Tink Grows Up" cue and ends with "The End of Hook" cue

 

data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAPABAP///wAAACH5BAEKAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAICRAEAOw==

 

This makes much more sense to me, with better "end of disc" and "start of disc" moments.  I like how this would have had the entire Pelennor battle  entirely contained on disc 2 as well, instead of being split over 2 discs like it is now.

 

 

So yea, ideally we will someday in the future get a 4CD set of each film, where Discs 1-3 is a "main program" that starts at the beginning and ends at the end, just one version of every cue from start to finish - and then Disc 4 is a bonus disc you can also play if you feel like it, that also starts at the beginning and ends at the end, but contains any alternate version that exists for every cue throughout each score.

Maybe someday...

That ROTK presentation makes sense to me as well. I would always be ecstatic to see more LOTR music properly presented. It now seems like the FOTR has a similar album situation to Hook or TPM Ultimate Edition. That's lamentable

 

It is listenable though. I noticed some of the History repeats before but it never sucked me out of the experience. I wonder how I will feel now that I am listening for all of them

[Jay 37,369]

18 minutes ago, blondheim said:

Thanks for the response. It was very detailed, thank you. I was not aware of all of that. I am pulling it out to listen to again to try and hear this for myself. I was so young when they were released, I wasn't quite the audiophile I am now... but it would explain why the FOTR CR is my least favorite of the three. Maybe I picked up on these things subconsciously?

 

None of us noticed any of this back in the day!  It was a while later when people started finding the unedited versions of cues in video game and stuff that everything clicked together.

 

Quote

I am not bothered when tiny cues are put together for the sake of musicality, although I understand why you would prefer it the other way. I've never had that album experience. Hell, I may prefer it that way. Hopefully someday we'll get to see

 

I know I am certainly not necessarily speaking for the majority on the issue of combining short cues into longer tracks or not.  The nice thing about releasing them separated is the end user can choose to overlap them if they desire, or leave them as-is if they don't.  By combining them before release, we don't have a choice in the matter.

 

Quote

How does one go about layering flac files like that? Audacity? Because I need to make a 20+ minute long version of that myself. I swear I would pay the price of an entire album to have that complete and mastered properly as god intended

 

I don't know exactly what you mean by "layering" but if you mean overlapping cues that are released separately and then saving the result as one long track then yes, Audacity is a good, free program one can use to do that.  The good news is, combining cues together is one of the easiest things to learn how to do with audio editing software.  Some of the other things we talk about doing like separating cues with reverbed endings or putting an Insert released separately into a cue take more practice to pull off.

 

Quote

That ROTK presentation makes sense to me as well. I would always be ecstatic to see more LOTR music properly presented. It now seems like the FOTR has a similar album situation to Hook or TPM Ultimate Edition. That's lamentable

 

Luckily the FOTR CR ends up MUCH better than both those releases.  The tracked music was carefully edited in by professionals and musically they sound good (IE, the themes in the tracked music still make sense, the ton of the music fits the scene, etc).  But yea, once you KNOW about all the tracking, looping, and editing, the FOTR CR as it is becomes increasingly less pleasurable to listen to, unfortunately...

 

Quote

It is listenable though. I noticed some of the History repeats before but it never sucked me out of the experience. I wonder how I will feel now that I am listening for all of them

 

Luckily it's only a minute long and there is plenty of other music in between each repeat.  But it is a bummer the same music is essentially on disc 1 three times

[blondheim 1,157]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

I know I am certainly not necessarily speaking for the majority on the issue of combining short cues into longer tracks or not.  The nice thing about releasing them separated is the end user can choose to overlap them if they desire, or leave them as-is if they don't.  By combining them befor release, we don't have a choice in the matter.

 

I don't like making my own album assemblies. That's not what I want from a release. I envy people who have the time and patience to go their own way like that. If they release them all separated, I am stuck with them that way. So I definitely want longer tracks of musically similar material even if it isn't chronological. Personal preference there

 

8 minutes ago, Jay said:

I don't know what you mean by "layering" but if you mean overlapping cues that are released separately then yea, Audacity is a good, free program one can use to do that.  The good news is, combining cues together is one of the easiest things to learn how to do with audio editing software.  Some of the other things we talk about doing like separating cues with reverbed endings or putting an Insert released separately into a cue take more practice to pull off.

 

I would love for someone to explain how to put together The Ultimate War this way. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, I'm sure, but how would one know the correct timings for the transitions? Or is this really all guesswork. If I did it and someone else did it, they may not be the same? That doesn't sit well with me. Does anyone have more information on how to do this posted somewhere? I am assuming the track itself can't be posted

 

Thanks again for all the information. I haven't hunted through video game music since The Phantom Menace was the entirety of my existence.

[Jay 37,369]

7 minutes ago, blondheim said:

I would love for someone to explain how to put together The Ultimate War this way. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, I'm sure, but how would one know the correct timings for the transitions? Or is this really all guesswork.

 

It's just guesswork and just takes a few minutes.  Essentially: open up cue 1 and cue 2 in your editing software.  Highlight all of cue 2 and select COPY.  Go into cue 1 and try a spot near the end you think is right, and click PASTE.  Listen to how it sounds.  if you were too early, click UNDO and then choose a spot a little later and press PASTE again.  If you were too late, try an earlier spot.  Eventually you narrow it down until you get the spot that sounds good to you.  Hit SAVE AS and pick a new name for your file.  That's it.

 

Quote

If I did it and someone else did it, they may not be the same?

 

Absolutely true.

 

Quote

That doesn't sit well with me. Does anyone have more information on how to do this posted somewhere? I am assuming the track itself can't be posted

 

Thanks again for all the information. I haven't hunted through video game music since The Phantom Menace was the entirety of my existence.

 

The public forums cannot be used to share copyrighted music with each other, but there are no regulations for the PM system whatsoever.