What do you consider to be Superman's "main theme" in Zimmer's Man of Steel (2013) and other scores?

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

There are actually 6 candidates of motifs which could lay claim to this title and I have realized many people mean completely different things when they say the "Man of Steel theme".

 

So which one is it for you?

Definitions: Courtesy http://cuebycue.blogspot.com/2016/04/man-of-steel-zimmer-2013.html

 

Superman Theme A

 

 

Clark's Theme

 

 

Superman Theme B

 

 

Superman Theme C

 

 

Superman Theme D

 

 

Lara's Theme

 

 

Also, let me know which one do you like the most and think is best representative of the character or most usable in the score/action scenes.

[LSH 969]

Which one has the most notes?

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

1 minute ago, LSH said:

Which one has the most notes?

 

They all have extremely simple progressions and basic 2 note phrases. I think Lara's theme has the most notes.

[HunterTech 994]

I always figured themes C & D were supposed to be the motifs that defined the character, given their main presence at the end after Superman was written to have been fully formed. However, given Snyder then decided that the character suddenly wasn't gonna be himself until 4 films later, they basically have taken a backseat in BvS and ZSJL.

So really, themes A & B are probably the motifs of the character for the time being, though I'd argue people would more notice Clark's theme. Heck, that's where most of the re-interpretations of the MoS material are rooted in with ZSJL, as it gets more triumphant renditions there.

What Lara's theme is supposed to signify is beyond me, given its sudden usage in the climax of ZSJL. I suppose it's one that is designed to embody the wonder aspect of the character, given the emotion Kal is having for the main sequence it's used in with MoS. It definitely makes for an effective reintroduction of the character to the audience.

I can't help but wonder if the writer of that blogpost is being a bit charitable with some of these theme distinctions, given A and B are pretty much the same idea, just adjusted a bit. I will say that I can at least finally see where Zimmer was doing his "world of sounds" trick that endeared me to his Nolan Batman work so much with Superman.

EDIT: Thinking about it some more, I can see why C & D haven't gotten the usage that I feel they should, given it almost seems like they only really fit within action sequences or end titles. Part of the issue is the lack of any real variants with them, as they're completely absent in BvS, and C only gets a minor usage with ZSJL that basically is copy and pasted. So what I'd like to be the Superman theme basically just isn't within the current crop of the films.

For motifs (because that's what they actually are) that are so simple, this is a weirdly difficult question. We just might not know unless we get more Snyderverse films, or if someone bugs Zimmer or Holkenborg on what they intended as the center point of the scores.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I like the one that goes "bmm-bmmmmm... bmm-bmmmmm... bmm-bmmmmmmmmm, bmm-mmmmmmmm..."

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Are these not just variations of the same theme (excluding Lara’s Theme)?

[Thor 7,582]

All of those videos are unavailable.

 

But I've always considered the main theme the one that plays as he takes off for the first time (fist to the ground, shaking pebbles, then off through the savanna and all that). But I have not analyzed these scores in-depth.

[gkgyver 1,646]

Sorry what? I can't hear you with all this noise! 

[bored 314]

I'd rather analyze The Dark Knight Trilogy scores (and have!) than listen to Man of Steel's score once. At least we have JNH's themes in the first 2 movies. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The Dark Knight Rises is a guilty pleasure score.

[Jurassic Shark 12,164]

15 hours ago, LSH said:

Which one has the most notes?

 

All of them have too many notes.

[bored 314]

Just... cut a few, and it'll be perfect!

[Jurassic Shark 12,164]

Cut all the notes...

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

19 hours ago, HunterTech said:

I always figured themes C & D were supposed to be the motifs that defined the character, given their main presence at the end after Superman was written to have been fully formed. However, given Snyder then decided that the character suddenly wasn't gonna be himself until 4 films later, they basically have taken a backseat in BvS and ZSJL.

 

I agree. I might actually think of them as the same theme too. D never appears apart from D. And always follows from C. So it tells me C-D is one theme. And I agree it is the most heroic, uplifting and celebratory theme so I always imagined it to be used whenever he does something heroic. C is the only one ever used in any of the movies - during the Flight scene. D is used to open the credits and accompanies the title card but is never used in the body of the score at all.

 

19 hours ago, HunterTech said:

So really, themes A & B are probably the motifs of the character for the time being, though I'd argue people would more notice Clark's theme. Heck, that's where most of the re-interpretations of the MoS material are rooted in with ZSJL, as it gets more triumphant renditions there.

 

I agree. In ZSJL, for the big reveal of the League's plot to resurrect Superman, they use the Superman B theme crescendo.

 

I was very surprised to get the "epic variant" of Clark's theme for Superman's entry into the final flight. Like really, they did not use any Superman theme and instead used the Clark theme for his big entry scene!

 

19 hours ago, HunterTech said:

What Lara's theme is supposed to signify is beyond me, given its sudden usage in the climax of ZSJL. I suppose it's one that is designed to embody the wonder aspect of the character, given the emotion Kal is having for the main sequence it's used in with MoS. It definitely makes for an effective reintroduction of the character to the audience.

 

Lara's theme is famous due to Flight and this probably what the GA thinks is Supeman's theme. I have seen a lot of Snyder fans mention they love the Superman theme and when I ask what it is, they mostly point out this theme.

 

19 hours ago, HunterTech said:

I can't help but wonder if the writer of that blogpost is being a bit charitable with some of these theme distinctions, given A and B are pretty much the same idea, just adjusted a bit. I will say that I can at least finally see where Zimmer was doing his "world of sounds" trick that endeared me to his Nolan Batman work so much with Superman.

 

I think A and B can be thought of different themes because each appears apart from the other several times. But I agree they can easily be the same theme. C-D can definitely be categorized as one theme.

 

19 hours ago, HunterTech said:

EDIT: Thinking about it some more, I can see why C & D haven't gotten the usage that I feel they should, given it almost seems like they only really fit within action sequences or end titles. Part of the issue is the lack of any real variants with them, as they're completely absent in BvS, and C only gets a minor usage with ZSJL that basically is copy and pasted. So what I'd like to be the Superman theme basically just isn't within the current crop of the films.

 

Can you tell me where C is used in ZSJL?

 

19 hours ago, HunterTech said:

For motifs (because that's what they actually are) that are so simple, this is a weirdly difficult question. We just might not know unless we get more Snyderverse films, or if someone bugs Zimmer or Holkenborg on what they intended as the center point of the scores.

 

And you aren't ever going to get a straight answer out of Zimmer, that much we know for certain.

 

19 hours ago, The Big Man said:

I like the one that goes "bmm-bmmmmm... bmm-bmmmmm... bmm-bmmmmmmmmm, bmm-mmmmmmmm..."

 

That's B I suppose.

 

18 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

Are these not just variations of the same theme (excluding Lara’s Theme)?

 

They sure sound like that. A, B and Clark's theme are all basically very similar 2 note phrase. C-D are slight different from them. And then Lara's theme is different.

 

 

14 hours ago, Thor said:

All of those videos are unavailable.

 

But I've always considered the main theme the one that plays as he takes off for the first time (fist to the ground, shaking pebbles, then off through the savanna and all that). But I have not analyzed these scores in-depth.

 

That is C then for you.

[Edmilson 7,527]

I'd like to listen to the themes and post my opinion, but all of the videos are unavailable  .

[gkgyver 1,646]

6 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

All of them have too many white notes.

 

Fixed

[Jurassic Shark 12,164]

Racism!

[HunterTech 994]

On 4/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

I agree. I might actually think of them as the same theme too. D never appears apart from D. And always follows from C. So it tells me C-D is one theme. And I agree it is the most heroic, uplifting and celebratory theme so I always imagined it to be used whenever he does something heroic. C is the only one ever used in any of the movies - during the Flight scene. D is used to open the credits and accompanies the title card but is never used in the body of the score at all.

I always was under the impression this was the theme most people would've recognized, given its use in the final trailer and some YT videos essentially using and referring to it as such. But this likely was in a time when MoS was all people had, so I wonder if BvS and ZSJL shifted that perspective a bit.

I honestly do not remember C being in BvS, likely as a result of so much of the music being just noise to my ears. Especially with how dominant some of the other MoS themes were, so I'm sure it'll stick out the next time I try trudging through it.
 

On 4/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

I agree. In ZSJL, for the big reveal of the League's plot to resurrect Superman, they use the Superman B theme crescendo.

Haven't seen the film yet, but I do remember that particular moment sticking out in the OST. I can imagine it being used to prop up the weight Superman's name carries.
 

On 4/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

I was very surprised to get the "epic variant" of Clark's theme for Superman's entry into the final flight. Like really, they did not use any Superman theme and instead used the Clark theme for his big entry scene!

Given what I mentioned prior of Zack supposedly wanting to push this 5 film character arc for Superman becoming his proper self, I can't help but wonder if this was a deliberate choice. Use the Clark and Lara theme to signify his growing humanity, but not use any of his actual themes to show that he isn't quite there yet in achieving his ideal self. Leaving those motifs for the scenes where the character and his intended values are discussed and reflected on.
 

On 4/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

Lara's theme is famous due to Flight and this probably what the GA thinks is Supeman's theme. I have seen a lot of Snyder fans mention they love the Superman theme and when I ask what it is, they mostly point out this theme.

Odd, because I don't think I've ever seen much attention drawn to the track itself in the general sphere outside of the scene it's written for. I can imagine that might be because it's one of the first things you hear in the lengthy Sketchbook suite, and now because of his big reentry scene in ZSJL. The one big Snyder nerd I know thinks of C&D as the Superman theme, but that's probably just because he's also a film music junkie, and thus has more thoroughly dissected the scores themselves.
 

On 4/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

I think A and B can be thought of different themes because each appears apart from the other several times. But I agree they can easily be the same theme. C-D can definitely be categorized as one theme.

I can see that. MoS is not one I've gone through much as a result of finding the whole product a mixed bag, but I'll admit that I've never actually thought much of the A-B phrase of the theme. It seems to have been designed as the Supes equivalent of either the two note motif or the "bat flaps" from the Nolan Batman trilogy, but it just doesn't quite have the total usage in the Snyder trilogy like it does there. It's part of an issue with HZ's take on the character that I'll elaborate on in a bit.
 

On 4/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

Can you tell me where C is used in ZSJL?

I'm told it's in the scene where Clark is listening to bits of dialogue from his two Dads that are pulled from the previous films. It's essentially the first half of Flight slightly rearranged.
 

On 4/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

And you aren't ever going to get a straight answer out of Zimmer, that much we know for certain.

How so? Admittedly, I don't have much idea on what his character tends to be in his public appearances (as recent controversies will tell you), but I never got the impression he'd keep info about his creative process that vague.

Ultimately, I find it frustrating that the thematic constructs of Zimmer Superman are this unclear, given his take is likely what the public will think of the character musically from here on out. With his first Batman, it was clear out the gate what he was aiming for with the music. He may have had a more traditional theme on the ready in case it either didn't pan out with the studio or if he hadn't persuaded Nolan to let him not use it much (not sure what the actual reason is), but Hans had a concrete vision that he knew he wanted and got to build on for the subsequent installments. Conversely, 3 films later, and we're here having a debate over what's supposed to generally inform the sound of his Superman. I guess that's the big difference between someone like Nolan and someone like Snyder, where one director really works to ensure everything gels together where they should, and the other doesn't really care about how a project forms as long as he can get his trademarks in there somewhere.
 

On 4/1/2021 at 5:22 PM, Edmilson said:

I'd like to listen to the themes and post my opinion, but all of the videos are unavailable  .

Hopefully these should work (unless they're also territory blocked, in which do tell me if that ends up being case):
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edmilson 7,527]

17 hours ago, HunterTech said:

Hopefully these should work (unless they're also territory blocked, in which do tell me if that ends up being case):

Only the first one and the last are available  .

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

7 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Only the first one and the last are available  .

 

Let's try this again.

 

I will just list the names of the tracks and the time, you have to find the track available to you somehow and then follow the times

 

Superman Theme A
Sent Here for a Reason - 1:49

 

Clark's Theme
What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World? - 0:32

 

Superman Theme B
What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World? - 1:40

 

Superman Theme C
What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World? - 2:22

 

Superman Theme D
What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World? - 2:39

 

Lara's Theme
Flight - 3:02

 

You need just 3 tracks and you should be able to listen to all 6. Let me know if it works out.

[Edmilson 7,527]

17 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Let's try this again.

 

I will just list the names of the tracks and the time, you have to find the track available to you somehow and then follow the times

 

Superman Theme A
Sent Here for a Reason - 1:49

 

Clark's Theme
What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World? - 0:32

 

Superman Theme B
What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World? - 1:40

 

Superman Theme C
What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World? - 2:22

 

Superman Theme D
What Are You Going to Do When You Are Not Saving the World? - 2:39

 

Lara's Theme
Flight - 3:02

 

You need just 3 tracks and you should be able to listen to all 6. Let me know if it works out.

 

Thank you for that.

 

I listened to it and I believe Clark's theme to be the main theme of the score, since it is the basis for all the other themes. But theme A is a very important way of representing Superman, not only here but on BvS and ZSJL.

 

But I still think the best performances of both Superman's and Clark's theme are on Day of the Dead from Batman v Superman.